Why the big secrecy?


So much of the show revolves around the fact that these women are not allowed to tell anyone what it was they did during the war.

My father was in Canadian Army Intelligence during WW I. He always told us that he had had a job in intelligence, and that he couldn't say anything more about it; and we didn't press him on it. A few decades later, the official wartime history of his outfit (which much later grew into Canada's equivalent of the US NSA) was unclassified, and we learned a bit more.

It could not have been a secret that he attended Japanese-language school for a year or so in Vancouver (my own first year, as it happens); it wasn't a secret that he was then posted to Ottawa. It certainly hadn't been a secret, since Roman times or before, that cryptography and code-breaking was an important part of war.

Canada's Official Secrets Act, I believe, was modelled on the British one. I don't understand why our heroines, when asked "What did you do in the war?," just have replied something like, "I worked in intelligence," or even "I was a clerk," "and I can't talk about it." I expect that in just-post-war Britain that would have been a very common situation. Less dramatic, to be sure...

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Perhaps because it was Bletchley? as in, there is intelligence, and then there's INTELLIGENCE. Bletchely might have required a higher level of secrecy.

Haven't you seen the little vignettes shown after the show airs on Sunday evenings? Last week, there was a cute little old lady talking about how she never told anyone until it was made legal to talk about it. iirc she never told anyone in her family about it until the 1970s.

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Yeah, I did see that, and I wondered about just how specific she was thinking of being. "I decoded German messages, we had an Enigma machine, and I had a critical part in winning the war" would probably have been a lot too specific; "I was a clerk and I can't talk about it" doesn't give anything away, and is more satisfactory to the listener than "I was in a coma from 1938 to 1945 and I remember nothing." In a way, a secret acknowledged requires less pussy-footing around. I was certainly never aware that my father was suffering anything by not being able to tell us complete details of his intelligence work.

Or, I suppose that there could have been a convenient cover story, like "I was a clerk in the Air Ministry in charge of 1/4" spanners."

It's not clear to me how familiar the immediate-post-war British public were with the name Bletchley Park, anyway.

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Espionage did not end when the war stopped - these people were, in many cases, in possible personal danger because of their wartime activities.

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No doubt. But I don't see that "I was a clerk and I can't talk about it" would put them in any more (or less) danger, say of kidnapping by Soviet agents.

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Well, it pretty much verifies that one was at Bletchley Park or wherever one's particular batch of code-crackers was working, making identification easier.

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They weren't "clerks." They did highly secret de-coding for the war department. A lot of what went on was kept quiet a long time.

Look up the background of what they and others did during the war. Most of it wasn't known to anyone until the 1970's.


"I can't sit down. These aren't my pants."

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We're not talking about what they actually did, but rather about what they would be allowed to say about what they did. As you say, "A lot of what went on was kept quiet for a long time," so "I did highly secret decoding for the war department" would have been, and should have been, much too much sensitive and classified information.

Many of the personnel at Bletchley Park were in fact designated as "cipher clerks," so--whether or not an individual was designated as a "cipher clerk" or a "codebreaker"--the answer "I was a clerk and I can't talk about it," even if not the whole truth, should have been an acceptable answer to "What did you do in the war?"

I have to admit that I'm somewhat surprised at all the replies my original post has engendered. It seemed like such a simple idea.

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Do you not see that an answer such as "I was a clerk and I can't talk about it" is precisely the response that would make the responder a target for relentless cross-examination and the subject of endless conjecture? We're talking about a period of time when there was actual active spying and double-agency, not to mention hysteria whipped up up in support of political agendas of many different varieties. There is a saying, "It is better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to speak and confirm the impression." A similar logic would support saying nothing over trying to appease an interrogator with an answer that leaves more mystery than originally existed.

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In that period, there had been a number of operations that fell under the Official Secrets, and a lot of people who wouldn't be allowed to talk about what they had been doing during the war. In any normal conversation, "I can't talk about it" would have been completely sufficient, as with my father's case. In an "interrogation" or "relentless cross-examination" (by whom--the NKVD? the local cops? a prospective employer? the nosy neighbour? in court?), I suppose that it would be a question of invention.

So, what are you suggesting that our Bletchley Circle women say when asked what they did during the war? According to what the Wikipedia says, Bletchley staff were told, variously, to say "I can't talk about it" or a lie like "I was in charge of procuring 1/4" spanners for army units in Sussex." Are you suggesting that just keeping one's mouth completely shut and saying nothing at all is somehow less open to "endless conjecture" than "I can't talk about it"? I'm afraid that your point evades me.

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It could not have been a secret that he attended Japanese-language school for a year or so in Vancouver...it wasn't a secret that he was then posted to Ottawa.


You keep trying to equate your father's experiences with the women portrayed on the show, but you also state that his activities were not that secret, so I don't see how his war-time activity applies to them or vice-versa.

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The work that my father was doing in decrypting Japanese codes was highly sensitive and covered by Canada's Official Secrets Act. He couldn't talk about what he had been doing until decades later.

Regardless of my father's situation, I have yet to be told how a deflection like "I can't talk about it," or a cover story like "I had a boring job with the Ministry of Supply" couldn't serve, without breaking up marriages or causing other trauma, even though these would prevent taking justifiable pride. In fact, I don't think that anyone in this thread has suggested better things to say. (And apparently Wikipedia agrees.)

Seems to me that telling people that you were apparently less important and clever than you know you really were might be a bit galling, but probably not all that traumatic.

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In that period, there had been a number of operations that fell under the Official Secrets, and a lot of people who wouldn't be allowed to talk about what they had been doing during the war. In any normal conversation, "I can't talk about it" would have been completely sufficient, as with my father's case. In an "interrogation" or "relentless cross-examination" (by whom--the NKVD? the local cops? a prospective employer? the nosy neighbour? in court?), I suppose that it would be a question of invention.

So, what are you suggesting that our Bletchley Circle women say when asked what they did during the war? According to what the Wikipedia says, Bletchley staff were told, variously, to say "I can't talk about it" or a lie like "I was in charge of procuring 1/4" spanners for army units in Sussex." Are you suggesting that just keeping one's mouth completely shut and saying nothing at all is somehow less open to "endless conjecture" than "I can't talk about it"? I'm afraid that your point evades me.

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This is taking place not that much longer after the war ended. Plus the Cold War had begun with Russia. So you can assume that things were still being kept fairly secretive. Plus, for all we know she could have told her husband she was a "clerk" in the war office during the war. So to her husband she was a low level admin person or file clerk. But of course it was so much more than that.

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Additionally, one must take into account the respective attitudes of and about the sexes at that time - there presumably were a great many men who would not have been eager to court or marry a woman whose war-time service (if known) would have publicly attested to the fact that she was a good bit smarter than a large percentage of the population - probably including him!

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One of the reasons for the secrecy was that the British sold Enigma machines to other countries (in Africa, I believe) and they didn't want these countries to know that the British were able to decipher intercepted messages.

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That doesn't make sense.

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I agree that the above doesn't seem to make sense, but a brief search confirms the case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine#Military_Enigma, down a bit, under "Other Countries":

An estimated 100,000 Enigma machines were constructed. After the end of World War II, the Allies sold captured Enigma machines, still widely considered secure, to a number of developing countries. As these countries did not know that the machine had been broken, their supposedly secure communications were in fact being read regularly by the major Western intelligence agencies. [footnote removed]
Who knew?

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I expect that in just-post-war Britain that would have been a very common situation. Less dramatic, to be sure...


A. It wouldn't have been all that common - the total numbers of intelligence workers was not huge (I have seen estimates of 10K) so the kind of answer you suggest would have caused that person tp stand out; and...

B. It was by no means limited to the UK - "Code Talkers" who used Native American languages in WWI & WWII were sworn to secrecy even after WWII because the US military envisioned using the codes again - which they did in Korea and Viet Nam.

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Well, it wouldn't have been just intelligence workers--there were all sorts of secret ops, scientific weapons, and the like.

I guess that the main conflict would have been in the women's having to say "I was a clerk" or something, and not being allowed to tell stories of "How I was instrumental in winning the war." OK, a burden, and stifling justifiably great pride, but probably survivable.

(And actually, one of them--I forget which--certainly didn't have to hide the fact that she knew, or learned during the war, German, just as my father didn't hide the fact that he learned Japanese.)

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You sign the official secrets act and if you violate the terms, you can be prosecuted.

When they had to sign them there was no specific indication of when the secrecy would need to end so there were lengthy dates on it; that is all now appreciated in hindsight, but not at the time - when they signed the agreements, there was an expectation of a much longer period of time where such secrecy was needed/required.

I don't think it is that complicated. If someone were to reveal where they worked, someone operating as a spy could try to manipulate/torture that person (or threaten family members) for details on a myriad of things that went on at Bletchley. There was nothing to indicate that the tools used at Bletchley would never be needed again -

We look at it all in hindsight now and can think it was overkill with the secrecy but at the time, I doubt they thought the threats were fully vanquished.

I'm sorry they went in this direction of human trafficking - not that it is not a relevant topic - it is all too relevant but I really loved watching the women use their finely honed skills to decipher certain mysterious circumstances.

Given this season, I can understand why it was not renewed even as I am disappointed.

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Yeah, yeah, I see all that: "You sign the official secrets act and if you violate the terms, you can be prosecuted." All that remains is for you to tell me what part of "I was a clerk and I can't talk about it" violates the Official Secrets Act, after the war--or during it, for that matter.

And of course the women (or other staff) wouldn't be allowed to say that they had worked at Bletchley Park, even though I believe that the very existence of the place and what was done there wasn't known until long after the war.

Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bletchley_park#Continued_secrecy says

Much of Bletchley's equipment and documents were destroyed at the end of the war, and the secrecy imposed on Bletchley staff remained in force, so that most relatives never knew more than that a child, spouse, or parent had done some kind of secret war work, or were told a cover story about clerical or statistical work. [footnotes removed]
No big drama necessary, no big psychological trauma, no over-elaborate lies, unless one really really wanted to brag about what a major role they personally had in fighting the war.

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The Cold War ... and probably paranoia that the Russian would poach British Intelligence.

The Mark 1 and 2 super computers that were used at Bletchley were destroyed after the war - and they were not rebuilt until a few years ago.

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I think you're a bit caught up in the customs of the present with an incomplete understanding of the times. Secrecy often had purpose and value to more people than just those directly involved at Bletchley and rather than grade it to different levels it made more sense to apply it as a blanket rule. Long-term vengeance was a real concern. Case in point...long story but true...

A few years ago I did a genealogical investigation for a woman whose aunt had lost an uncle (the aunt's father's brother) in England in WW II. He was a crewman in a bomber squadron but he never came home from the war and his family were never given a definitive status for him. They literally never knew what happened to him, which seems strange in this day and age when those missing in action at least get an MIA designation and usually, eventually, some sort of account of what is at least believed to have happened to them.

When Pres. Clinton declassified a vast amount of WW II documents around 1996, it became a treasure trove for authors, screenwriters, reporters, playwrights, historians, and WW II buffs. My friend asked me to see if there was finally any way to discover what happened to her aunt's uncle. This was around the time an online database subscription service now called Fold3 (formerly Footnote.com) started up. They offered tons of war-related files from the National Archives for reading and downloading and learned very quickly that WW II records were the most popular databases they had based on customer interest.

I bought a 30 day subscription and found the mystery man listed in 8 documents under the Missing Airmen section. It turned out he'd been part of a bomber crew routed over Holland to hit a munitions factory in Berlin, but his plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire, forcing the pilots to land in Holland in a field surrounded by woods. There they did as they'd been taught, destroying paperwork, abandoning the plane and running in different directions, though most of them had some injuries. Two crewmen were quickly intercepted by members of the Dutch resistance, who were waiting for them; the Resistance was kept apprised of the dates, times, and routes of most air missions coming out of England by British intelligence so they could station themselves below the bombers' paths as much as possible, just to be available for rescues like this.

By passing the fliers from one Resistance member to the next the Dutchmen managed to get the two fliers back to England within days. The remainder of the crew, including the guy I was looking for, were all captured and imprisoned. Within a few months they were sent back to England as part of a prisoner exchange, which I was surprised to learn went on anywhere in WW II. The man I was researching had been injured during the hard landing and didn't get proper treatment while imprisoned, so that even though he made it back to England and had surgery at a hospital near his airbase, he died within a couple of weeks. They buried him in a cemetery near or on the base (records made it hard to tell which and gave no name).

His file went through in the normal way as Missing Airman paperwork. The captain in charge of his case spent two years revisiting it, interviewing all his fellow crewmembers, pressing them to remember every detail of the last time they'd seen him, contacting his parents, relatives, and friends in the U.S. more than once to see if they'd heard from or of him. It was hard to see the captain's notes in the margins of the later documents when he was still trying to find this guy, saying things like, "Family deserves to know his whereabouts". The missing man did not fall through some paperwork cracks; someone, somewhere, decided to keep his fate secret, deliberately letting the process of searching for him continue though it had no chance of success. To be cruel? No.

The reason was to protect the Dutch Resistance members who'd helped the other crewmen, those who had helped earlier Allied fliers, and all who were expected to continue doing so. British Intelligence, in whatever form and designation, had secured this kind of help from the Dutch in return for promising to keep their names and activities secret through the lifetimes of their children AND their grandchildren. Fear of Nazi retribution was that great. We have to remember that these were people living in countries that had either already been invaded by the Germans or who were fighting to avoid being invaded by the Germans. It was a completely different mindset born of bloody experience and obviously it was felt that lying about the fate of one American flier was worth the pain it caused his family compared to the possibility of harm befalling the Dutch Resistance members and subsequent loss of their valuable services. To this day I have no idea how many people the Dutch may have saved in this way, nor any notion of how to learn about it.

At any rate I printed 8 pages of documents about the search for this man on the part of the U.S. military MIA department captain and sent them to the woman who had asked for my help. She said a few days later that her aunt was greatly moved to learn what had happened to the long-lost uncle, even though we had no luck pinning down where he might be buried, or if his burial had been moved to a proper cemetery. She was glad to know that at least he'd been buried somewhere all these years in a free country like England. So, that's what I've learned about secrecy in those times. I find it entirely believable that anyone in Britain who was involved in intelligence or sensitive work of any kind would feel bound to keep perfectly quiet for the rest of their lives.

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That's a very interesting story--many thanks. I can certainly understand why the military would have thought it necessary to keep stuff like this secret at the end of the war, but I would also have thought that a few years after, by which time Germany had become a NATO ally and the Cold War was in full swing, they would find it necessary to keep up the secrecy. But I guess that the military doesn't like flexibility.

However, that's not really what I was addressing. My father was doing secret work for Canadian Intelligence at exactly this time. When anyone--even family--asked about his wartime experience, he would say something like, "I was in the Artillery and then the Army taught me Japanese and then I did some work in Ottawa that I can't talk about it." He didn't say more until it was all unclassified--I think in the seventies. And it turned out that he was aiding in the decryption of Japanese intercepts, which actually would have been a pretty logical deduction anyway.

In the show, we see that the various Bletchley women seem to be terribly oppressed by the fact that they can't tell anyone--even family--what they did in the war. Of course they couldn't talk about how clever they had been, or give any details about the work or even the location, but I would have thought that "I was doing some work that I can't talk about" would have been a complete and satisfactory answer, and one that would have especially been respected at the time. And, as with the story you give, there would have been lots of people who were in that position, in many different facets of the war.

Alternatively, there would be the cover story--"I was a typist at a supply depot," which would presumably provoke yawns instead of interest. Either way, I don't see how either of these stories would have led to the psychological trauma we see in the show. Of course it must have been frustrating not to be able to brag about one's cleverness or how important one was in winning the war, but I just question how traumatic it was--especially when one had more important post-war things to worry about, like how to stretch rations.

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Women were seen as a possession (still are nowadays in many cases) supposed to be mothers and slaves for their busy men (i'm a little crass of course)
the only reason they were brought into the war effort was the lack of men. After the war they tried to put women back into their "place" asap stay at home mom if married, or only allowed to take menial jobs.

Seeing these women being able to say that they had a job they couldn't talk about doesn't make sense during that time.

it is obvious that even Susan's husband is embarrassed that a woman his wife would want to speak with the police about her theory, he helps her. not because he believes in her as a person but to mollify her out of love (which is nice enough but condescending) he keeps making excuses for her behavior in front of the police man and is astonished that they take her seriously.

And Susan is dating a "modern" man for her time.

if you are not being taken serious due to your gender alone. you try to get off the radar.

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Consider that the 'Enigma' machine was considered state of the art of encryption at the time. How many other governments and businesses do you think also used that machine and considered it impregnable by anyone. There also would be a lot of armchair generals who knowing that 'some' messages were decrypted would assume that all traffic had been decrypted and that the opposing British/American Generals had total access to all of the plans of the enemy so why were so many soldiers killed, and battles lost or won with significant casualties. The Japanese purple code and JH25 were also cracked by cryptographers. Sometimes the intelligence was so valuable that losses had to be made just to ensure that the 'secret' wasn't discovered by the enemy and another form of encryption used which would lead to a loss of intelligence a possibly a critical phase of the war. In actuality the most highly kept secret is 'what you don't know' compared to 'what you do know'.. Intelligence gathering requires a lot of seemingly worthless information being gathered to give insights into the most needed information and a clue as to what the encoded/enciphered information breaks down to. A whole bunch of little fragments can give you an idea of what the larger picture is.

Each time the u-boats changed their crypto systems they had 'happy hunting times' Admiral Donitz's conviction that the Enigma was impregnable especially since they used a 4 rotor system compared to the standard 3 rotor system and his micro-management obsession (upwards of 70 reports / submarine) daily assisted in the code breakers immensely. If the British had lost the anti-submarine war they would have been starved into submission. This is how critical this was to England's survival so it was without exception of the Manhattan project one of the most highly secret items of World War 2. Therefor anyone involved in it from the radio operators that intercepted the information to the highest levels of the government swore an oath of secrecy to which even to this day the official secrets act the maximum penalty is death.

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British Intelligence didn't even acknowledge the mere existence of Bletchley until the early 1970s. It was the "toppest" of the top secrets. Part of the arsenal of the cold war was concealing the skills and assets you had available so I'm not at all surprised that the existence of the greatest codebreaking team in the world was kept secret long after its debanding.

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