MovieChat Forums > Wadjda (2013) Discussion > Response from Saudi citizens and governm...

Response from Saudi citizens and government?


I work as an ESL teacher and many of my students are Saudi, but I'm afraid of bringing up the topic as it seems to be a bit of a sensitive issue for many Saudis. They seem to not want to say something that might cast their country in a negative light (even though I think the movie does try to show both good and bad as most honest movies should). Is there anyone here who's Saudi who's willing to offer their honest opinion on it or someone who's heard a Saudi say anything about the movie?

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...I am not Saudi, but I do recall reading an article that the film was made with the permission of the government.

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I asked a Saudi student of mine who saw it and said he hated it. I think most Saudis would be proud if it won the Oscar, but angry if they had actually seen it. Let me put it this way: I run a movie club for Saudi students, and I will not be showing this movie.

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You run a move club when movies are banned in the country? (No theatres, etc.) You should show this film.

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Maybe the person running the movie club doesn't want to be killed.

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actually movies aren't banned in KSA, there's DVD\Blu-ray disc stores everywhere, there's movie channels and then there's the Saudi region iTunes store which offer a wide range of movies and no one is upset about that, it's ok.
it's just the theaters that are banned and that law is creating a feud between citizens and powerful religious people.

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I asked a Saudi student of mine who saw it and said he hated it. I think most Saudis would be proud if it won the Oscar, but angry if they had actually seen it. Let me put it this way: I run a movie club for Saudi students, and I will not be showing this movie.
I find this a very strange decision and rather sad. The members of your film club have the choice to watch it or not, to see it to the end or walk out. Even if they dislike the film and it makes some of them angry, isn't it better to prompt debate and thought about Wadjda as both social commentary and a film?
The distance is nothing. The first step is the hardest.

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Poppy, your answer re not showing this movie also intrigues me -you said "he" hated it- i wonder if a female student would also hate it? Are your movie club members there purely for entertainment or for educational purposes? I'm assuming it's educational. But whether it's for either, maybe the members as a group should be the ones who decide which films to watch or not watch (within the legal bounds of the country of course).
And I wonder what they would be angry about; I haven't seen the movie, but none of the reviews I've read have mentioned it made the reviewer angry; on the contrary, it made them feel good. It may be that it's just a matter of "east is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet".
From my point of view this is a wonderful opportunity for me (I live far away from Saudi Arabia and in a totally different culture and life-style, to get a glimpse of a very noble culture and a fascinating country. I'm really looking forward to seeing this movie.

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@bklea

I think you've confused my post. I don't run a film club; it was the poster I quoted who runs the film club and knew of a Saudi guy who had seen and hated it. In fact I agree with you that members of the group should be involved in choice of film to watch. I think the poster, who runs the club, making a decision not to show the film, because s/he thinks it might be disliked, is wrong.

I hope you enjoy the film. It's a fascinating country that's for sure.

I give my respect to those who have earned it; to everyone else, I'm civil.

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if I thought club members would dislike the film due to being disinterested in the film and its subject matter or bored by it, I'd probably not show it

but if it seemed they would dislike it because it would take them out of their comfort zones and challenge their worldviews, I would be all the more tempted to put it on the schedule. having one's perspective countered and scrutinized is healthy. misguided notions can be exposed and case off, and ideals that withstand scrutiny are stronger for it

it's a dilemma, though, because the way people tend to be, making viewers uncomfortable by challenging their beliefs, or simply showing non-disparaging depictions of opposing beliefs, seems like a sure way to end up with a very small film club, with little opportunity to affect growth and change


2014 Screenings: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls054830628/

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You make valid points on a general basis but I don't think this film is that discomfiting. I think it challenges in a gentle and inclusive way. Men aren't mocked or made out to be the baddies, for example. Saudi society is not demonised.

I give my respect to those who have earned it; to everyone else, I'm civil.

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I agree with your assessment, but not being deeply familiar with Saudi culture, or the other poster's film club members, it's hard for me to feel certain about what might make people uncomfortable

I know someone who is uncomfortable watching movies involving actors or directors whose real-life political opinions are opposed to his own, no matter what the movie is about or how it is presented

someone else I know is uncomfortable watching The Simpsons, because Homer Simpson reminds her of her moronic ex-husband

lots of people are upset by movies that don't conform to their personal religious views, whether mocking or not

others take issue with hearing "them dang ol' foreigners talkin' all their blah blah blah"

there's quite a long list of little, perhaps seemingly unrelated, sometimes unreasonable things, that knock people out of their comfort zones. and it can be surprising and hard to predict who has these issues, especially if you don't know them

EDIT: Poorly worded, unqualified reference to fundamentalist Muslim extremists removed.


2014 Screenings: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls054830628/

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Once you've taken into consideration everything that might make a person uncomfortable or object to then I suggest you and others disband film clubs.

keep in mind we're talking about people who can be filled with murderous rage by seeing their favorite religious character appears in an illustration
No, we're not. This film does not equate to the illustration and not all muslims feel or react the same. Pretty lame retort, PsychoDingo.
not being deeply familiar with Saudi culture
Neither I am but the director is.

The point about the poster refusing to show this at his film club was that he made the decision. He didn't consult his members who may have been intrigued to see the first, or one of the first, films from their homeland. You are digressing from this point with your other objections, which if you entertain them means people would never try to do anything for causing offence.
I give my respect to those who have earned it; to everyone else, I'm civil.

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my point was not to equate Wadjda with a Muhammad comic or suggest that the film is inappropriate in its approach. I was really just trying to get at the fact that people can be touchy, and maybe there are things the film club leader knows about their club members that would make Wadjda seem like not the best choice for that particular group

as far as consulting the members, that's something I've considered in my own "what if I started a film club" musings, and I can only conclude that encouraging member input regarding screening choices would be absolutely essential to having a healthy, vibrant, interesting club. I think discussing not only the films that are screened, but also the universe of film options is a big part of what would make the whole thing fun

and a film that seems edgy enough to ruffle people's feathers is one I would at least want to mention and say, "this movie exists, and it might piss you off, in case y'all are interested." then it's not a case of a film being imposed upon people who don't want to see it, and it's also not an opportunity lost due to a club leader's preconceptions, which may be wrong


2014 Screenings: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls054830628/

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my point was not to equate Wadjda with a Muhammad comic or suggest that the film is inappropriate in its approach. I was really just trying to get at the fact that people can be touchy
Your point suggested all muslims react the same way. If that's not what you were intending then you needed to better qualify your remark about the group of people called muslims.

The fact that people can be touchy is neither here nor there to me and if that's always your consideration then don't get out of bed again. And this poster is touchy about remarks about muslims as a 'group' especially from posters on IMDb. I'm disappointed with you for introducing the muslim furore regarding the cartoon about Mohammed into this discussion on Wadjda.
I give my respect to those who have earned it; to everyone else, I'm civil.

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I don't believe that all members of of any group act the same way. Homogeneity in a reasonably sized sample group rarely exists. Consider my remark about Muslims hereby qualified.

the lack of previous qualification may have given the impression that I'm thinking of Muslims as a single-minded hoard of angry maniacs, and that's not where I'm coming from at all. I get that there are a relatively small percentage of extremist fundamentalists who get a relatively large share of the press coverage with their freak-outs, while the majority of folks are just trying to live their lives from day to day

I intend to get out of bed again, and touchy people will just have to deal with it. after all, I'm the guy who said: "if it seemed they would dislike it because it would take them out of their comfort zones and challenge their worldviews, I would be all the more tempted to put it on the schedule"


2014 Screenings: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls054830628/

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I am an atheist, so I'm against all religions. But it sure looks to me like Muslims are "touchier" (and that's putting it mildly) than people of other faiths.

Sam Harris has proposed a thought experiment which I think illustrates this nicely. Let's not even talk about within a Muslim country, but in the U.S. There is a long-running, very popular Broadway show called "The Book of Mormon" that pokes fun at the Church of Latter-Day Saints and its origins. Now imagine of someone wanted to put on a similar show called "The Book of Quran", that ridiculed Muslims and Mohammed. Would any insurance company be willing to insure such a show? What security precautions would be required? How many riots would break out in the streets outside the theatre, not to mention at the gates of U.S. embassies in Muslim countries around the world?

Yet you could do such a show about Buddhism, Hinduism (maybe the diciest non-Muslim case), Judaism, etc. without much trouble.

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im saudi too . i have not seen it nor planing to, but from the trailer it seemed to be funny and could be a good start for other better films hopefully.

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Why are you determined not to see the movie?

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a Saudi BOY would definitely hate it :) that's the whole point.. plus, it has nothing interesting enough for the average joe, someone seeking gunfire and explosions and cars or at least comedies, this would not fit their taste

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I don't at all see how "that's the whole point". There were very few if any male villains in the film; the director has said that she doesn't specifically blame men for the conservatism of the society, and that in fact it is often women who enforce the strict rules more than anyone. I think this comes through in the film.

Have you actually seen the film?

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I've seen the film and I've lived in Saudi Arabia, it's much worse than you might imagine, the society is extremely masculine, not to mention the insane Wahabist ideology, a boy is raised over there being taught that a woman is merely an object for sexual desires and breeding, the female is only seen in a sexual scope that's why she must be covered up head to toe, and must follow the will of her father and brothers, even younger brothers, they control her and get to lawfully beat her, and then once she's married she must fully obey her husband and do whatever he pleases, and when her husband decides to take a second wife, she gets no say in it, and even sometimes the husband forces her to look for his new bride herself.

There was a scene in the film where Wadjda's little male friend takes her to the Indian driver's home, he kicks his door and the man is scared of him, while we see him being extremely rude and disrespectful to Wadjda and her mother before, it's there to show the contrast between the power of a male and a female in the Saudi society.

Now why would a male hate the film? because Saudi culture is totally against any form of female empowerment, they wouldn't sympathize with a woman or a girl, they would watch the movie and the look at you and say, so what? you have a different reality and different morality and emotional system, a Saudi boy would KILL his sister if she had an extramarrital affair, and he wouldn't see anything wrong with it. For god's sake man, women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia!

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Okay, thanks for providing your very depressing perspective. So you think the filmmaker is wrong for seeng hopeful signs of progress in Saudi Arabia?

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Of course there's absolutely no hope since the society is governed by a strict wahabist ideology that is an interpretation of religion, so these abominations of opression are enforced by "religious" blessings, and there's no hope for any secular form of government any time soon.

P.S. they have a religious poloce in Saudi Arabia, they go around the streets holding sticks and they beat up whoever is not adhering to the "accepted decent behavior or dress code", or those who are not rushing to mosques to pray at the time of prayers.

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Victorian England was only barely over a century ago, and now Europe is the most liberal place on the planet. It is less than 100 years since women got the vote in the U.S., only fifty years since the modern feminist movement started, and we are on the verge of electing a woman president. Things can change fairly fast, within a generation or two.

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See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

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That's a really nice idea but I don't know how fast change will occur in strict Islamic countries given that they are driven by a much stronger ideology than Europe a couple of hundred years ago, they are also far more strict than that time.

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China's centuries long cultural preference for boys is suddenly changing as well. With their new economy, women everywhere in the work force, daughters are suddenly desired and often seen as more "loyal" than sons.

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Before changes take place, Islam has to experience a reformation. Before that can happen, people have to speak out and criticize the religion. It seems to me whenever someone tries to do this in the West, Muslim or non-Muslim, Muslims complain of "Islamaphobia". The reaction in the Muslim world is much worse. We have a long way to go.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world... but for Wales?

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And though I am a liberal/progressive, a lot of my fellow liberals are quick to cry "Islamophobia" as well, retarding the process.

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I like how everyone on this thread is essentially saying "There is hope yet!!" by only pointing to absolute radical transformations in past cultures that essentially abandoned the vestiges of their past selves.

All you're really saying is that you really want countries whose moral scopes shake yours to become yours....Wellllll...in the abstract sense, how's that different than what you're criticizing SA for? (Underline the abstract - as yes, I do acknowledge it is probably nicer not to get clubbed for having a dissenting opinion.)

I say this only to point to why you're not going to get much of a reception in the country that made it (without referencing at all the people's own lack of interest in most films and its different cultural tastes when it comes to movies - they like their movies cheesy!!). The director went out of her way to try to show that she loves her people and merely wants a change. But the foreigners who then embrace and praise this movie miss that point entirely and go on long, uninformed rants such as these about how much Saudi's culture and people OUGHT to be like OUR culture and people. And that's one of the very reasons that Islamism exists - its a natural reaction to everyone constantly trying to alter a way of life only to end up destroying that way of life and assimilating all your children to something strange and purposeless.

If I were a Saudi man, I would rather swallow down the ricochet of an imperfect system - even if it was an injustice, rather than swallow down the shackles of an imported culture that is generally just a subtle imperialistic hegemony in disguise. Is that fair? Perhaps not - but that's human nature.

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Could we have some examples of statements that were called "Islamophobic"? I find discussions like this are a lot more useful if you use very specific examples. Provide as many details as possible.

For example, I thought this was very Islamophobic: Donald Trump saying that he saw thousands of Muslims cheering in Jersey City as the Twin Towers fell. A total lie. It never happened. He said a lot of things about Muslims that never happened.

There. That's specific. Am I retarding the process by calling a blatant lie (or a hallucination, perhaps) "Islamophobic"?

Janet! Donkeys!

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No, you are not. And I am beyond horrified that the absurd buffoon Trump has been elected president. But I am a huge fan of both Sam Harris and Bill Maher, who also detest Trump but get savaged from the left for their "Islamophobia":

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/10/is-islamophobia-real-maher-harris-aslan/381411/

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I have no problem with calling Sam Harris "Islamophobic." He says some dumb-ass crap. Maher's kind of smug about how edgy he is but I don't think he's Islamophobic.

You're still not really being very specific though. What did Harris say that was "savaged from the left" and what was the nature of this "savaging"?

Janet! Donkeys!

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Also, I've never encountered anyone before who thought only one of those two (Maher and Harris) were Islamophobic. Usually it's both or neither (I'm in the neither category). Because Bill has had Sam on his show, and they pretty much line up on the subject of Islam.

Here's an example that will perhaps change your mind (although it will unfortunately probably just make you dislike Maher more than you did previously):

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/bill-maher-on-islam-the-more-people-learn-about-it-the-more-you-would-be-afraid/

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I'm not surprised that he hated it, cuz the most people who struggle in this sick country (Saudi Arabia) are the females, males are more free in saudi arabia, in fact, they almost control everything, ask any saudi girl about her opinion of the film, i'm sure she'd say that she liked the film cuz it shows a lot of things that is frustrating and no one is doing anything about it!!!

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Why do your student hate it? Why do other Saudis? Do they think their country comes across in a bad light? If so, do they think it's because the country comes across as insufficiently prosperous/advanced, or is it because they realize that the cultural practices (especially the treatment of women) appear really backwards and unjust to foreign viewers? Or is there another reason?

Thanks!

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I am a Saudi , and the response was mostly positive , as the movie was fairly modest and with a sweet message. But of course there are those who had a negative and *traditional* response even if they did not see the movie, but thankfully they are few nowadays.

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That's good to hear. So what is stopping all these old rules from fading away? Do you think it will happen soon?

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The movie was partially funded by the movie production company of Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, who is a member of the Saudi royal family.

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Huh. That's interesting.

I don't know why DVDs/TV is okay but theatres/cinemas banned?

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Makes no sense to me either, except that as I understand it theatres were banned in the 1980s, so if it was early in that decade it may have been before the rise of home video.

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See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

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The Royal family is HUUGE!

Alwaleed bin Talaal is not part of a branch that has an impending chance at succession.

Also - Bin Talaal is also one of the richest people in the world. I believe he has a private airplane with a good portion of the inside laid entirely in gold. A lot of his wealth comes from combined oil money and his shrewd investment - in a LOT of western areas of business (there are portions of Islam that find speculating and investing such as you see in Western stock exchanges to be sinful).

I'm saying all this because this man is VERY Westernized because he knows there's lots of money in it and he enjoys what benefits it has to offer when you have the funding for it.

That said, the world would not be the same without Talaal. I've gone to two schools that had entire divisions named after the man because, as much as he flaunts his wealth, he also donates a LOT of it, too.

Ultimately, it doesn't surprise me that Talaal could fund this film with little consequence. He is among the younger, more Westernized royals and it is to be expected. But whatever dissenting opinion he is advocating symbolically by funding the movie, it doesn't much matter because he isn't set to succeed to the throne and he is well protected by a LOT of money and the clout that comes with it. (After all, would Saudi's opinions about anything much matter on the geopolitical scale if they didn't have their shrewd business and oil czars?)

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Once you open the topic to your students, it will never closes, espacially if they're females, dont bring the topic to males cuz they don't give a damn, it would be nice if u do so, they will show their anger side cuz no one cares!!

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Assuming you're not living in Saudi or a similar fascist state, just ask them. Don't be cowed by them, show them it's possible to ask questions and have discussions. A radical idea, I know.

~.~
There were three of us in this marriage
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