MovieChat Forums > Dear White People (2014) Discussion > ***There is NO SUCH THING AS RACE***

***There is NO SUCH THING AS RACE***


Clearly most people on these boards have never taken an anthropology class, and Biology being taught in schools is lacking. Everyone is Black. Your skin color is not an actual color, but rather the adapted algorithm that dictates the rate of melanin production within Homo Sapiens Sapiens, depending on the expected birth environment. All the features that you see in Brad Pit exist with Shaq, they are simply suppressed, as they were not deemed beneficial/survivable for the environment that the human being was expected to be born into. Your body/DNA is smarter than your brain.

Every once in a while nature throws you a freak-show to remind you of this inevitable fact, where someone displays features that aren't survivable for their environment, such as the one in this link below;

http://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/mind-and-soul/the-eyes-have-it/ss-BBi3VN9#image=1

Any stereotype or prejudice based on the superficial attributes that we see with our lying eyes (Obi-Wan), are insanely ill-advised as you never know how much you have in common with someone who you only see with your eyes.

Please educate yourselves and join the small percentage of educated humans in evolving into the next stage of our metamorphosis into intelligent creatures. Leave the hate and racism with the founding fathers and their immediate degenerate heirs.

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Partially true, but wildly inaccurate.

For instance, when you say that all the elements that exist in Brad Pitt exist within the Shaq, it is incorrect.

This is something you should learn not from anthropology, as you assert - but this is genetic stuff. You should take a class in genetics.

I could simply make an end-around argument that is valid by saying this: Genes mutate all the time, and there is uniqueness everywhere. This is true.

But a better argument is simply this: Genes are adapted as part of mutation, and survivability. Think Darwin and survival of the fittest here. Suddenly, your human tribe is in the far north, with lots of snow and ice. Genes that don't adapt to that will die out in the gene pool faster than the ones that can't adapt to that, as they are more prone to die in those conditions. Random mutations happen all the time, the countless varieties of sperm, egg in each generation, other mutations spurred by the environment, etc. Over time, with this growing and thinning process you get specialized groups of humans for that environment. Some genes do get repressed, but that is also usually in regards to this same effect.

There end up being lots of totally different genes that are in some races or groups than others. Want to see an example of this? The "sprinter gene", ACTN3 is found in a lot of the Olympic athletes of color. No doubt evolved on the plains of Africa where such a sprinting gene would be useful. It isn't found in most humans. I am pretty sure in time, that the same could be found in other groups like swimming for whites, like how Michael Phelps, Mark Spitz, etc seem to be especially more prone to being just that much faster in the water. Again, the circumstances of the environment.


Unless the Shaq and Brad Pitt had relatively recent familial relationships, I highly doubt these sorts of genes were transferred to one another. Even if they were on there great grandfather, it still wouldn't be true because of the change in each generation.

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Well without getting in to too much scientifical details but both of you are right somehow, there are biological diviations such as east asian don't have a strong filter for handling alcohol, northern europeans have an extra tolerance for lactoses and the african pigment can resist sunlight better, but need more sunlight to get enough d vitamins.
But... there are not sufficient divations to talk about races in the same ways as dogs for example, thus anybody who claim that humans do have races is in fact... a racist.

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You are confusing two terms from the scientific point of view. We are all one species, with many races.

There isn't enough deviation for us to be an entirely new species, like a dog or cat in your example.

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Please educate yourselves


if everyone is so fuggin stupid, why waste time on preaching to a bunch of morons?

anyway. "race" is a sociological term. it's not a biological one.




"Please disabuse yourself of the notion that my purpose on earth is to tuck ignorance in at night."

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anyway. "race" is a sociological term. it's not a biological one.

Yet another one that may need to be educated.

It is a sociological term. IT IS ALSO a biological one. It all depends on its usage. It is the words scope. My apple is having all kinds of technical difficulties, I prefer my droid... My apple is bad and rotten, but the orange is fresh.

Just because you found out what a word is defined in a certain context, does not mean you should go about and use that definition for each and every time you see the word, and especially outside of that definitions scope.

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It is a sociological term. IT IS ALSO a biological one.


no, it isn't.

"race" is not a category in the biological classification of organisms.

there are phenotypes, mutations, and diseases that are common to certain groups of people, but that doesn't mean race is biological.

Races may exist in humans in a cultural sense, but biological concepts of race are needed to access their reality in a non-species-specific manner and to see if cultural categories correspond to biological categories within humans. Modern biological concepts of race can be implemented objectively with molecular genetic data through hypothesis-testing. Genetic data sets are used to see if biological races exist in humans and in our closest evolutionary relative, the chimpanzee. Using the two most commonly used biological concepts of race, chimpanzees are indeed subdivided into races but humans are not. Adaptive traits, such as skin color, have frequently been used to define races in humans, but such adaptive traits reflect the underlying environmental factor to which they are adaptive and not overall genetic differentiation, and different adaptive traits define discordant groups. There are no objective criteria for choosing one adaptive trait over another to define race. As a consequence, adaptive traits do not define races in humans. Much of the recent scientific literature on human evolution portrays human populations as separate branches on an evolutionary tree. A tree-like structure among humans has been falsified whenever tested, so this practice is scientifically indefensible. It is also socially irresponsible as these pictorial representations of human evolution have more impact on the general public than nuanced phrases in the text of a scientific paper. Humans have much genetic diversity, but the vast majority of this diversity reflects individual uniqueness and not race.

----Alan R. Templeton
Published in final edited form as:
Stud Hist Philos Biol Biomed Sci. 2013 Sep; 44(3): 262–271.
Published online 2013 May 16. doi: 10.1016/j.shpsc.2013.04.010
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3737365/


"Please disabuse yourself of the notion that my purpose on earth is to tuck ignorance in at night."

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no, it isn't.

"race" is not a category in the biological classification of organisms.

there are phenotypes, mutations, and diseases that are common to certain groups of people, but that doesn't mean race is biological.

Again, I was speaking on biology globally. I was not speaking in terms of scientific classification, which has the same concept, but a different word.

Someone can use the word "race" in a biological context, showing the differences in one another. They are there. Very similar to the scientific classification you seem to want to bring up, subspecies (subset of the species), like how the Florida Panther is similar to the rest of the Pumas, they are practically the same, but have some local traits they pick up. Sound familiar to more lactose tolerance of some, sprinting genes and or higher pigmented skin in others based on evolution within the local? It certainly does to me...

To understand why words can have more than one meaning, you should probably go by and actually see how words get into things like dictionaries to begin with. Because people at large begin to speak it, with a certain context - that other people understand. So whether or not it is correct in syntax (octopuses, octupi, octupedes) , it is added in the dictionary, because people want to define what it is a word they keep hearing - and explain it to others. It usually gets defined when it is something that becomes ubiquitous, like ain't. People used to say that wasn't a word... So many people used it. Guess what? It is now defined in dictionaries like Merriam-Webster.

How are people using the term race here? Are they speaking of socioeconomic conditions? Are you saying the argument is invalid, because, despite our agreement on a word we are all using in a certain context, is somehow invalid?

But just to make our definition fit, and our argument makes sense to people who may be unfamiliar with the SCOPE, or CONTEXT of the word - let me grab the dictionary definition (the third one, there is other things like running a race before it), to define it, and confirm the biological element.

Parts to key in on are in bold.

Definition of Race^3(Merriam-Webster)
1
: a breeding stock of animals
2
a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock
b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
3
a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group
b : breed
c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits
4
obsolete : inherited temperament or disposition
5
: distinctive flavor, taste, or strength



EDIT:

I have also found a really interesting discussion on the web for you (I was curious about googling the link between subspecies and race, and they are in fact, pretty much the same), that features a biologist(Rich)(and yes I know, it is just a public science forum) arguing how the concept of race is at its roots, a biological issue. Comes with various sources cited during the discussion.

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/race-vs-subspecies.111663/

Going to quote to you the best parts of the first page of dialogue.

Race is a valid biological concept for describing geographically delineated populations of individuals of a species which share certain morphological characters. The complaint that races (or subspecies) can't exist today because geographical barriers have become eradicated by plane travel and intermarriage is specious claptrap. The boundary between races is always fuzzy - it is never sharp and characterized by the presence of trait A on one side of the line, and the absence of trait A on the other. In a true 0-100% frequency incidence line, the line might be drawn at 50%, or at any other arbitrary point along the continuum along the line for that character. It would be drawn where the zoogeographic break made the most sense. There is no reproductive isolation between races.

I'm always amused by the PC cultural anthropology crowd who tell their students that "race" is an evil concept that does not exist in human populations, while on the 3rd floor of the anthropology department, in a lab right above them, their physical anthropologist colleague is determining the probably racial affiliation of a set of human remains in order to help police identify the victim of a crime.


You are aware that dog breeds can be identified by their genetics, are you not? There is a new book on dog genetics coming out in about two or three months, which includes chapters on the genetics of dog morphological variation, and the genetics of behavior. You might find that book of interest. I'll find the title and publisher and post it.

It is you who is confused. The concept of "race" has absolutely nothing to do with culture - it is a purely biological concept, as used everyday by biologists the world over. I'm a biologist. That's how I use it.

Now you may not like the fact that there is such a thing as races of a species - but that doesn't change the fact. If you, and other humans, are unable to stop yourselves from assigning value propositions to those races, that is a problem with you, and with those humans who do so. It is not a problem with the scientific concept of race.

There is no such thing as a "cultural concept of race", at least as it applies to biology.

I'm amazed that thinking human beings with a decent education can be so confused about so simple a thing.

Killjoy, purely as a convention, we don't talk about races of domestic animals (and plants) - those are referred to as varieties, or, as you note, breeds.

But the term race appears all throughout biology - you can find the term "race" in the titles of many papers, such as:

Races of Zea Mays: Their recognition and Classification, 1942, Edgar Anderson.

A New Geographic Race of Leaf-nosed Snake from Sonora, Mexico, 1952, Hobart M. Smith and David Langbartel

A New Race of Black-chinned Sparrow from the San Francisco bay District, 1929, Alden H. Miller

Hanson, H. C. 1952. “A new race of red-backed vole (Clethriommys) from the Barren Grounds of Canada.” J. Mammal. Vol. 33, pp. 500-2.

I just picked 4 quick examples to cover plants, reptiles, birds, mammals.


It may also be help to know that after the Nazi eugenics program, racial essentialism lost widespread popularity. Race anthropologists were pressured to acknowledge findings coming from studies of culture and population genetics, and to revise their conclusions about the sources of phenotypic variation - which may get to why certain definitions you are referring to have gotten that way. If you want a source for that, view page 299-300 of the pdf here: https://dx.doi.org/10.1111%2Fj.1540-6563.2010.00263.x

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Trying to jump back into the discussion again.

I wouldn't claim that race originally is a socio-cultural concept, the right word for that is ethnicity. Many different species on the planet can be divided into races, even if I think it's kind of questionable to quote scientific products during the area of racial biology, where many scientist in the western world had a bias for this divide. But yes I would say that races do definitely exist biologically.

However, not within humans, that Fishman61 quote a dictionary does not mean anything else than that there are people that use the word in that way, not that it is scientifically correct. I see that you try to justify by saying that it's a question of semantics, that words change and that one word can have multiple of meanings. This is of course very true, but it's also very dangerous, since some words and some meanings can be used to create larger differences among people than actually exists, by mixing science with prejudicest and socially and juridical categorization. I think that is the case in US and I think that is why people should be taught not to use that word. Let me quote this time from the encyclopedia.com:


The concept of race as a categorization system for human beings did not exist formally until the late eighteenth century. Most analysts (e.g., Feagin and Feagin 1999; Allen 1994; Roediger 1991; Omi and Winant 1994) have linked the inception of the biologically based idea of distinct races of human beings to European colonization of the New World. Although prior to this time human beings certainly distinguished between themselves in many ways, these distinctions tended to be based upon tribal, clan, ethnic, or national differences that stemmed from place of residence/territory or shared belief systems rather than on innate, genetic characteristics. However, as capitalist-based exploitation of certain (often darkerskinned) groups began in the form of chattel slavery and other abuses of humanity, those in power began turning to science as a way to rationalize the oppressive conditions to which these groups were consigned. The rush to develop these pseudoscientific claims might have been spawned in part by the need of the colonizers to assuage their guilt and to resolve the cognitive dissonance and contradictions evident in rising new societies that prided themselves on freedom and democracy even as they relegated certain groups in their societies to a nonfree, even subhuman status (Horsman 1997). While the “science” that developed the idea of race is certainly discredited by today’s standards, the social ramifications of humans having separated themselves into races still remain firmly intact. As the Thomas theorem once stated, “when men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences” (Thomas and Thomas 1928, p. 572). Thus, although the idea of race as a classification system of human beings is what social scientists call socially constructed rather than biologically based, it still is an enduring category of social analysis. It is so not because of its genetic or biological basis, but because of the power it has wielded as an idea to create dividing lines between different classes of human beings across the globe (Graves 2004).

Several scholars have identified the conception of human races as a key part of the development of a racist ideology (e.g., Feagin 2000; Yetman 2004). An ideology is a belief system intended to rationalize and justify existing social arrangements. In this way the concept of race is a decisively social concept because it is not observed as existing independent of the “racialized social systems” (Bonilla-Silva 1997) that hold it in place. Feagin identifies three dynamics that crystallized by the late 1700s to result in a clearly racist (as opposed to nationalist or cultural) ideology: “(1) an accent on physically and biologically distinctive categories called ‘races’; (2) an emphasis on ‘race’ as the primary determinant of a group’s essential personality and cultural traits; and (3) a hierarchy of superior and inferior racial groups” (Feagin 2000, p. 79). Thus, at this point in history, no longer are human differences attributed first and foremost to national, regional, and cultural variations. Instead, they become perceived in a biologically determined (static, unchanging) way, and the differences begin to be encoded into hierarchical categorization schemas that connote superior and inferior species of human beings.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/race.aspx

So clearly there is no biological race among humans and to define them as such is apparently dangerous

Then let's look up the word racism:
racism According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term describes ‘the theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race’. The word itself is rather recent, probably going back only to the 1930s. There are two attitudes towards the concept of racism: one says that ‘racism’ is usefully applied only where it is derived from a perception of race and the ensuing fixation on ‘typical’ racial traits. In this sense ‘racism’ describes the racialist attitudes of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, deriving from the merger of physical anthropology and ethnography on the background of the idea of evolution. Another school has argued that racism consists in intentional practices and unintended processes or consequences of attitudes towards the ethnic ‘other’. According to this line of thought, it is not necessary to possess a concept of ‘race’ to entertain prejudices towards other peoples.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Racism.aspx#4

It's not stated of course that only states who have the kind of racial structure taken into practice that will have racism in the society, but can we try to agree that it definitely does not help to use biological terminology to increase differences among people who already, through complicated past history, had problems with each other and makes it considarbly harder to become as one.


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I wouldn't claim that race originally is a socio-cultural concept, the right word for that is ethnicity. Many different species on the planet can be divided into races, even if I think it's kind of questionable to quote scientific products during the area of racial biology, where many scientist in the western world had a bias for this divide. But yes I would say that races do definitely exist biologically.

Just because something is sensitive - and used by idiots who don't do so without bias is not an excuse to pretend it doesn't exist. Not saying one is better than the other (they all are, in differing circumstance), just different. I am acknowledging that there is a difference.

However, not within humans, that Fishman61 quote a dictionary does not mean anything else than that there are people that use the word in that way, not that it is scientifically correct.

Then you neither understand dictionaries, their purpose - or the scientific method.
I was using the dictionary to back the term race we were debating, until he started saying we were using it incorrectly. So in this context, when using words, that at that time did not even have specific scientific terminologies, just generalities - the dictionary is fine.

The rest of it, I will just dismantle the key linchpins of. There is a lot of examples they use to reinforce the same points, and secondary things that do not matter as much. Trying to be concise, and exact in my answer here.

The concept of race as a categorization system for human beings did not exist formally until the late eighteenth century.

Of course. That was right about the time of the rise of Darwinianism, the theory of evolution, and thoughts of separating races of any species by classification. Social evolution theories, and eugenics, etc came even later still (not a fan of eugenics, don't get me wrong here.)


Are you saying that the concept of this kind of categorization system is wrong, simply because the system it would be based upon wasn't around the popular consciousness before it was formed? That is silly.

Several scholars have identified the conception of human races as a key part of the development of a racist ideology (e.g., Feagin 2000; Yetman 2004). An ideology is a belief system intended to rationalize and justify existing social arrangements.

People use religion for the same thing. News for the same thing. Twisted science for the same thing (twisted, as in they don't properly do a scientific method, they have a theory first, then form the facts around it).
All to develop a racist ideology.
Does that mean each and everything they are individually bad?
And again, you don't need facts at all. I heard that black people are monkeys. I have heard white people are white apes, one step from an albino, and were originally the slave race until they stole everyone's tech (does that make sense to you, any of this? Racist propaganda regardless of which race the racist is, tends to be very off the wall stuff.)
Ignoring the science of the difference, is not going to be the answer. They don't need this system to enforce their stupid ideology. They will pervert it or create their own.
But you can refute them with correct science, showing that all races can do well, all races have different specializations, etc that are better than others on average. And all races have their exceptions, their Einsteins, etc. But refusing to get into the science, and making a blanket statement of all being equal is not a way to go.


So clearly there is no biological race among humans and to define them as such is apparently dangerous

That is just silly. Anyone can be dangerous or peaceful. All the numbers are averages and prone to other factors. Making science to define someone as dangerous? What does that serve to anyone?

Then let's look up the word racism:
racism According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term describes ‘the theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race’. The word itself is rather recent, probably going back only to the 1930s. There are two attitudes towards the concept of racism: one says that ‘racism’ is usefully applied only where it is derived from a perception of race and the ensuing fixation on ‘typical’ racial traits. In this sense ‘racism’ describes the racialist attitudes of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, deriving from the merger of physical anthropology and ethnography on the background of the idea of evolution. Another school has argued that racism consists in intentional practices and unintended processes or consequences of attitudes towards the ethnic ‘other’. According to this line of thought, it is not necessary to possess a concept of ‘race’ to entertain prejudices towards other peoples.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Racism.aspx#4

This is incorrect, I have done extensive research on this topic.
Things to note first. Up until 1960s-1970s (when racialism came to mean something different), racialism was synonymous with racism, and many dictionaries defined them by each other to some degree. It was first quoted in 1902. But here are some early dictionary examples, before he 1930s.
1862 definition of racial: "(1862) 1: of, relating to, or based on a race 2: existing or occurring between races — racially
Source: Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, 1988
1907 definition of racialism: "(1907) RACISM — racialist
Source: Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, 1988

Here is a quote from Richard Henry Pratt, 1902
"Segregating any class or race of people apart from the rest of the people kills the progress of the segregated people or makes their growth very slow. Association of races and classes is necessary to destroy racism and classism."

The term racist, does seem to be from a Leon Trotsky, in his book History Of The Russian Revolution in the 1930s, however, this is a singular reference, clearly does not refer to race in a white/black or white/non-white context, and appears to have been used purely as an epithet. The credit for coining the word proper must go to a contemporary of Trotsky, although one who would most certainly not have approved of his broader political ideology.

I think this is why so many people get confused on the dates. The origins of the term go back probably to the later half the the 19th century.


By the way, all of this enforces the modern definition, even in the Merriam Webster.

Racism (Merriam-Webster)
: poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race

: the belief that some races of people are better than others

That last one nails it on the head, viewing someone as the superior or inferior, either by faulty scientific reasoning, religion, custom or otherwise.
It's not stated of course that only states who have the kind of racial structure taken into practice that will have racism in the society, but can we try to agree that it definitely does not help to use biological terminology to increase differences among people who already, through complicated past history, had problems with each other and makes it considarbly harder to become as one.


Understanding, and embracing the differences should make a big difference. You know, education, the kind that proves that blacks are not inferior, and are great people, capable friends, etc, and vise versa? That is what we need. Not being able to understand that there are difference is just blind ignorance. People need to move past this stumbling block.

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Someone can use the word "race" in a biological context, showing the differences in one another.


this has been debated in the science world, and there are some people like you who believe that "race" denotes variations. however, recent contributions to the field confirm that it isn't a useful nor relevant term to use.



"Please disabuse yourself of the notion that my purpose on earth is to tuck ignorance in at night."

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The very fact that you mention "debate" means that it isn't settled.
Secondly, it is completely relevant, but I don't even have to argue that now. Why?
Because thirdly, this was a conversation originally about biology, that fit that very debate, and used in that biological context - being valid, race, despite not being that "useful", was still used in a consistent manner.

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The very fact that you mention "debate" means that it isn't settled.


i guess someone better alert the flat-earthers that their theory is still in the running then.

Secondly, it is completely relevant,

says you.

Because thirdly, this was a conversation originally about biology


really?

i DIDN'T know that.

thanks for pointing that out.

i guess the person behind me made posts under my account that mentioned biology.


"Please disabuse yourself of the notion that my purpose on earth is to tuck ignorance in at night."

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i guess someone better alert the flat-earthers that their theory is still in the running then.

That would be something if I was trying to argue a scientific theory here. But we were just arguing the correct usage of a word, 'race', in regards to a topic. Even if they are bad theories, and out there as you point out - that doesn't invalidate the usage of a word used to describe it in that context. So again, you didn't prove a thing with your weird straw man. It wasn't the original argument.


says you.

And I explained why I didn't go into it, but if you go above I even posted a link showing POVs that make it relevant, but it isn't the best source. I can dig up and explain this in great detail if you want... But that wasn't the point, and I was making a quick reply.


really?

i DIDN'T know that.

thanks for pointing that out.

i guess the person behind me made posts under my account that mentioned biology.

This argument was about using a word race, outside of the socioeconomic context, that we were using before you got here.

I am sorry, if you lost sight of that in your argument, that I felt like having to point that out again, despite you talking a little about it earlier. Because your previous arguments were going off topic quite a bit, with none of the other things bringing relevance to the discussion.

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". IT IS ALSO a biological one." In regards to race, can you clarify what you're implying here?

Don't like what I'm saying? Then call 1800-Ima-CryBaby and ask for Waaaaaa.

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There is such thing as race. All the *beep* and negativity and perception that surrounds is everyone else's own damn fault.

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