MovieChat Forums > Father Brown (2013) Discussion > Glaring errors in the churchy stuff (ong...

Glaring errors in the churchy stuff (ongoing updates)


watched all of the first season and a bit more so far and the following errors appear consistently:

- Fr Brown's cassock is the wrong sort. his cassock should have a shoulder cape. the 1974 series had it right.
- when fully vested for mass, the vestments lack the maniple. this is not optional in the period.
- he also lacks a biretta all the time.
- 'St Mary's' is a rather unusual name for an RC Church.
- the Stations of the Cross are, very oddly, about head-height and supported on poles from the ground. Stations are usually high up on the walls. this clearly shows it's an Anglican church and they couldn't put up the Stations, possibly due to preservation orders or suchlike.
- the statue of Christ with the Sacred Heart is placed on an odd plinth, clearly not part of the church.

all these errors are pretty egregious, considering they have an RC priest advising them and reading the scripts.

now onto specific episodes i've seen so far:


S01E01

- rite of confession is wrong for the 50s setting.
- one of the two nuns in the diner is wearing a huge rosary around her neck. rosaries are never worn around the neck, and a huge rosary of that sort is looped around the belt.

S01E02

- Fr Brown wears purple vestments for RC requiem. purple vestments are impossible, black was the only option before 1967, except in the funerals of infants. again missing maniple.
- Fr Brown asks husband of murdered woman if he'd like to give funeral eulogy. again, eulogies strictly forbidden in this period.

S01E03

- scene of organist auditions in the church, the altar candles are lit. altar candles are never lit outside of services.
- in the last scene, Fr B recites the De Profundis - this is BCP, ergo Anglican. the De Profundis is not in the RC rite.
- the Latin is mispronounced.
- scattering of ashes is forbidden for RCs, and memorial service could not have been done over ashes in the 1950s.

S01E04

- German priest celebrating 'mass for peace' is in choir dress (cassock, surplice, stole of the colour of the day). if he's merely preaching at someone else's mass, that'd be the right outfit. if he's supposed to be celebrating mass, completely wrong outfit.

S01E05

- Fr B, hearing Susie is joining Kalon's sect, doesn't remind her that this places her soul in great peril? not very likely for a 1950s RC priest, but perhaps possible for a Church of England priest in 2013…

S01E06

- opening scene of mass all wrong. missal shows canon, and the nuns are JUST coming in? they'd have been in chapel since Matins+Lauds+Prime, and kneeling, as the canon is midway through mass.
- chalice wrong shape for the 1950s, as it lacks a foot and a knobby stem.
- Fr B turns to say 'Dominus vobiscum' with outstretched arms and looking at the nuns. 'Dominus vobiscum' is said with hands at shoulder width, and eyes downcast.
- that's not a convent chapel. these are nuns, and the chapel should have choirstalls arranged facing each other, not pews facing the altar.
- final scene, Fr B baptizes baby with the formula ' in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit'. in 1950s everyone said 'Holy Ghost', never 'Holy Spirit', and baptism would have been in Latin, not English!
- Fr B pours the water over the head of the baby with his hand. in baptism by pouring, the baptismal water is poured over the head of the candidate with a metal vessel, never with the hand.

S01E07

- Mrs McCarthy, church secretary quotes Old Testament chapter & verse. this is a most glaring error: Catholics can't do that, lol. if it were a New Testament verse, maybe, but not likely an Old Testment bit about ritual purity.
- Fr B prays alone in church, outside of services. inexplicably the candles on the altar are lit, as are a few standing candles lining the walls. altar candles are never outside of services. clearly some set dresser got 'creative'.
- additionally, the candles on the altar are two candelabra of five candles each. these never appear on the altar in RC churches, it's always the big six.


S01E09

- giving absolution to the dead mayor, Fr B says the correct formula 'ego te absolvo...', but then incorrectly crosses himself instead of the body.

S01E10

- hearing Flambeau's confession, Fr B is dressed in cassock, surplice and stole. but missing the biretta.
- toward the end, being asked to give an emergency absolution Fr B starts 'God, the Father of mercies' before being told by Flambeau 'the short version'. absolution was never given in English before the 1970s, and this prayer did not exist at all before the 1970 reforms. the long pre-1970 version starts 'Dominus noster Jesus Christus te absolvat'.

S02E01

- exorcism scene. exorcisms would not have been done in English. also, Fr B is clearly reading from the wrong book. what he has is an altar missal, as the leather tabs are a dead giveaway. what he should be holding is a Rituale Romanum, which is much smaller, but one supposes someone in the production team wanted a bigger book.
- Elspeth's funeral. finally Fr B wears correct black vestments (albeit with odd purple orphreys), but still no maniple. tsk.

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That is a fascinating exposition. I regret that not many viewers will have any idea or care much, but to an expert in any field, such errors are annoying, even more so when they could easily have been avoided.

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There is a long list of errors for the film Gravity which a lot of space experts have come up with but it has not spoilt audience enjoyment!

Its that man again!!

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No indeed, but my point was that to those for whom these things matter, errors like the ones the OP mentions will be annoying, just as in Gravity (which I am looking forward to seeing) the errors that you mention may be annoying to 'space experts', but not to the majority. My area of expertise is shoes and I always notice if they are wrong for a particular time period. Most people don't mind at all.

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thank you for the comment. it's particularly annoying, as they have a priest advising them. but then, most of these modern RC priests are clueless about what happened before the reforms of the 60s and 70s.

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They have a priest advising them? Oh dear. Either he is clueless, which is sad for him, or he is offering advice and being overruled by people who don't care. Which is probably infinitely worse for him. I rather hope he is clueless.

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Well, I'm an Anglican priest... and, just watching the running episode ('Colonel Gerard'), I too see errors: Brown doesn't behave 'traditionally' enough, with much of the pre-Vatican 2 'frills' missing. As is observed above, either the adviser is ill-informed about such matters or was ignored by the producer/director (who may have considered such matters a 'distraction' from the drama).

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i blame the priest really, it's typical of the post-V2 mentality.

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Well if he is clueless he needs to find another vocation, because he should know better.

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Most ordinary people wouldn't notice these errors, but if a RC Priest is advising them, then he should have made them right.

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Praise be! I am so happy to see someone who pays attention to the improprieties of Catholic doctrine, especially pre Vatican II doctrine.
I watched my first episode (S02E02) of Father Brown on PBS with one eye last night.. Father Brown was presiding over the funeral of the presumed victim. He was wearing a green cassock while saying the funeral, which bugged the <blank> out of me. The pre-Vatican II color code for the vestments instruct the priest to use the black vestments. This wasn't open for interpretation or discussion at the time. These were the not so "warm and friendly" days of Catholicism. Post-Vatican II toned it down to a purple scheme. If memory serves, the green vestments were worn throughout the post-pentecostal period which would last until All Souls day (November 2) when the black/purple vestments would appear. (All Souls day was a strange one since the priest would say three masses, back to back, in a rapid fire fashion. The sermon was usually skipped that day. As an altar boy, you hoped that you would have a young priest who had a faster gear in his bag of tricks as compared to an older priest whose transmission was on it's last leg.)
Here's another thing that gets me ... Pre-Vatican II ... Besides the mass being said in Latin with the priest facing sacristy, the Holy Spirit was referred to as the Holy Ghost (not Goat as referenced in Four Weddings and a Funeral).
Another thing some screenwriters get boogered up is The Lords Prayer ... the Catholics drop the doxology (the final sentence). The Protestant version (also recited at Twelve Step Meetings)include the final line, "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen".
You would think that if a movie or television series about a priest in the 50's is in production, and the screenwriter is not familiar with pre-Vatican II catechism, that he/she might run the script or story boards past the priest at the local rectory ... or even easier, check Wikipedia.
You sure don't see this lack of attention to detail in other period pieces like Downton Abbey or Foyles War.

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You can always count on Americans to do the right thing after they've tried everything else/Sir Winston Churchill

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If it's any consolation, I've seen similar errors in portrayals of Protestant services, especially Anglican/Episcopal and Lutheran.

I remember one TV movie in which the (presumably Lutheran) pastor was wearing red stoles for Christmas. I suppose the ignorant set designer thought "red=Christmas," but in fact, in those days, the color for Christmas was white and red was for Pentecost and martyrs' feasts.

And don't get me started on the ways in which a college professor's life has been portrayed inaccurately over the years.

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I remember sitting down to watch the movie "The Boondock Saints II: All Saints Day" and having a lot of concerns about whether this is a good way to spend my next two hours. I'm a little fuzzy on the exact scene, but during the opening act, The Lords Prayer was being recited in a Catholic Church. Lo and behold, they plough right through the standard Roman Catholic version and include the doxology or "the bonus stanza" as used in the Anglican Communion (and as the closing prayer at every Alcoholics Anonymous meeting). I shut the movie off immediately thinking if they let that slip through, what else are they going to screw-up?
There is one thing to cut the director/scriptwriter some slack on details in deference to the creation of the dramatic plot, and another when you show a nonchalance towards religious catechism. I think the morale to this story is if you are going to bring a religious custom or practice into your script, at least have the courtesy to fact-check your work.
With respect to politics and a country's history, if a movie booger up simple historical facts, that may have a negative effect on the film's acceptance. For example, a wonderful movie, "Selma" took a lot of liberties with the way President Lyndon Johnson was portrayed. I'm not sure that many Americans have learned to embrace the memory of LBJ. But the dialogue that Tom Wilkerson spoke was not an accurate representation of the LBJ administration. When asked about it, the rookie director started to dance around the notion that the film is not a text of history but rather a drama based on the events surrounding Selma. That played like a cop-out from my standpoint. I suspect (and this is my personal opinion) that this might have contributed to the reason Selma was not nominated for the Best Picture Award.

You can always count on Americans to do the right thing after they've tried everything else/Sir Winston Churchill

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[deleted]

Inferno XV, I can understand your point regarding the use of English when it should be Latin. However some licence must be allowed given the time slot that the programme is aired and the fact that very few of the viewers will have any knowledge of Latin. I find it intensely annoying when films and TV programmes persist in having large passages of dialogue in a foreign language and indeed it rather spoils my enjoyment as I feel I may be missing something vital to the plot.

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that's a good point to be sure. it does look as if the choice between English and Latin was sometimes taken rather arbitrarily.

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large passages of dialogue in a foreign language and indeed it rather spoils my enjoyment as I feel I may be missing something vital to the plot.

I hear you and we get no sub plots...or titles...

even amerian soaps do it..when two Spanish people are speaking.....

susan

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Welcome to Catholicism 101. Besides the standard cues and responses, no one knew what the priest was saying. I sarcastically liken the priest mumblings to the popular song from 1958, "The Witch doctor".
Here's a spoiler for some ... There were cue cards for the Altar boys (no girls back then) so third graders got a little help with the lingo.

You can always count on Americans to do the right thing after they've tried everything else/Winston Churchill

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I enjoyed your list of anachronisms and mistakes, but was a bit puzzled by the following:

- 'St Mary's' is a rather unusual name for an RC Church.

Is it rare in England? I live in the US and went to a RC church named St. Mary's.

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"St Mary's' is unusual but not unknown, to be sure. 'Our Lady of XYZ' is rather more common in my experience.

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Yes I agree with that although the RC Cathedral in Edinburgh is St. Mary's.

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I can't speak for England, but here in the U.S., St Mary's is a VERY common name for RC churches. I don't know why it wouldn't be in any English-speaking country...

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yes, we're speaking of England here. the reason being that the older churches named St Mary's are generally Anglican, and many of the RC parishes established after Catholic Emancipation made a conscious effort to dissociate themselves from things that felt 'Anglican'. parishes named 'Our Lady of XYZ' are a bit more common.

Scotland and Ireland are different situations, and the Irish influence on the RC scene in the USA is why St Mary's is not unusual over there.

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Wow, I did not know that! Thank you! It's good to know the "why" of things. :)

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Didn't know that either.

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older churches named St Mary's are generally Anglican, and many of the RC parishes established after Catholic Emancipation made a conscious effort to dissociate themselves from things that felt 'Anglican'. parishes named 'Our Lady of XYZ' are a bit more common.


Where I grew up there was a Catholic "St Marie's" a mile or so from an Anglican "St Mary's". I don't think it was a conscious effort to dissociate themselves from anything "Anglican" - more to avoid confusion with the existing local churches. There are actually quite a few Catholic "St Mary's" in England, if you google.

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Just drove past a St. Mary's church in Indiana. Big joke in the area since the secretary's name is Mary and she constantly answers the phone, "St. Mary's church...Mary speaking."

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Since I have a background in both of the subjects of InfernoXV's post, i.e. Clergy and TV Production and an almost obsessive love of the mystery genre, I found the post very interesting. There are too many reasons for such errors to put into a single post, so I'll just comment on two. One of them InfernoXV mentions, the other he does not. Yes, it is true that film makers do not always (in fact rarely do)follow all the advice given by the subject matter expert (SME). A film maker is not going to spend money to buy or rent something if he/she does not think it is important and what is important varies with the film maker and especially the budget.

The thing that he doesn't mention is that not many priests born after the Second Vatican Council have more than a precursory knowledge of preVatican II rubrics and many of those who were priests before the rubrics were changed have forgotten most of them. After all anyone who was a priest then, would have to be 72 at least.

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What bothered me the most was the whole first episode, "If you ever want to talk I won't try to convert you." I'm sure G.K. Chesterton would have loved that one. Also eating right before walking into mass when they're supposed to be fasting, a woman choir singer saying "I'm ready to sing Amazing Grace" (a protestant song) anything pre vatican II would have been in Latin. And then in the 2nd episode the priest shows no reverence in the church during the funeral and only cares about solving the murder. The 1970's version was much better

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CBRoad: You're certainly right about the requirement to fast before going to communion; however, it is not required to fast before going to mass, if you're not going to communion or just going to sing. Also, while Amazing Grace was written by a Protestant, the Catholic Church sings it too and it is OFTEN sung at masses, especially during lent.

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'Amazing Grace' would never have been sung in the pre-V2 days. For a start, it mentions being saved by faith alone, which is heresy by RC doctrinal standards.

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[deleted]

To InternoXV; I am a lifelong Roman Catholic & in School in the 1950s, we went to 8:am mass every day for extra credit (Catholic School) but I can only reference my memories and I never noticed the differences you cite. Nor do I disagree with you & do believe the set directors, wardrobe & artistic artisans
should have been aware of dress code, Latin rites, as well of the changes since Vatican II etc. I think English is used in place of sub titles. Don't know if you're in the UK or US but in my very, old New Jersey city that was settled by the Dutch, the first RC church that was created was St. Mary's (early 1800s) - my old parish. Where I went to school & got married.

2nd. One of the most famous movies of the 1950s (or late 1940s) with Bing Crosby was " The Bells of Saint Mary's" I believe the title song won an Oscar
So, St. Mary's is a common name for a Catholic Church here in the USA.

I remember the Latin Mass but it was so long ago, I don't believe many viewers would notice all the differences that you have. BTW, that episode is on now, called the Blue Cross.

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As an altar boy, I found all the rituals fascinating. Plus, the older AB's would show off their superiority as they knew all the incantations and quirks. Back then, lighting the candles before mass was considered a cool thing to do for some reason. The only time you would light all of the candles was for a "high" mass (which requires a Bishop or Cardinal to be present ... I think) and the candles on the back row were lit on Holy Thursday (or Maundy Thursday).If you lit the wrong candles or too many candles, you'd get called on the carpet for sure.
The altar boys would ditch the black cassocks on that day and they would break out the red ones for the day.

You can always count on Americans to do the right thing after they've tried everything else/Winston Churchill

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In The Blue Cross, where was the bishop's skull cap? Does anyone remember Bishop Fulton J. Sheen? This series is neither a good rendition of Chesterton's stories nor good mysteries.

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St Mary's' is a rather unusual name for an RC Church.

But not unknown: - http://www.catholicdirectory.org/Catholic_Information.asp?ID=33718

The church may shout but Darwin roars

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[deleted]

S01E07

- Mrs McCarthy, church secretary quotes Old Testament chapter & verse. this is a most glaring error: Catholics can't do that, lol. if it were a New Testament verse, maybe, but not likely an Old Testment bit about ritual purity.


I'm a practicing Catholic and I can quote the Old Testament and the New Testament. Many Catholics can.

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Many Catholics can today but I think you'd have been hard pressed to find an average Catholic who could do that in the 50s. Growing up I don't think anyone I knew even owned a Bible.

Our Pastor had given my parents a book of Bible stories; not a book for children, but one which contained stories like that of Absalom, the one I remember best. The first time I ever held a Bible was as a teenager in the mid-60s when I took down the one enthroned in the sanctuary to read when left alone in the church during 40 Hours Devotion.

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obscure OT verses about ritual purity? mmm... right.

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The one set in the seminary opens with a priest saying Mass. He is facing away from the congregation, but speaking English. We have a tridentine service here, the priest faces away from us & Mass is (mostly) in latin.



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