MovieChat Forums > Before Midnight (2013) Discussion > What a poisonous film, very disappointed...

What a poisonous film, very disappointed.


I've been surfing IMDB since I was was a young lad (24 now, been on since 10), and I've finally been provoked into making an IMDB account (so well done film in that respect I guess).

Basically, I was extremely disappointed by this film, and looking over my feelings: maybe even a little bit upset.

There has been such an investment in these characters over such a long period of time, that this feels like someone stuck a knife in and twisted for the sheer pleasure of it.


-The overwhelming cynicism. These were the people who met on a train and shared a wonderful night with all the joys of life? People who now caustically refer to the nastiest of allusions?

-The sheer nastiness of the characters, especially Celine. (I'm a bloke, white and middle class at that, so I'm sure my opinion is completely irrelevant). Throughout the whole film we are subjected to what is basically a rant about various issues, most of which are not relevant to the film or the characters we have known so much. This was not love, and maybe it never was on her part anyway.

-The insinuations of infidelity. Way to go to devalue characters who a lot of us have drawn upon to place our own lives. We all realise it is a film, but only a fool wouldn't admit that such emotive works don't have an influence. What a genuinely nasty approach to film making, to trash character built up so long.

-The sheer irrationality of Celine. I genuinely thought she was a little mad (and not in the good sense of the word either). Throughout the entire film we see her belittling him in every sense of the word. She calls into doubt his love, she leaves NO feelings as to her doubt of love. She is cynical about the past, present and future (if you asked me before we are 96; eeeh uhh) and seems to delight in rejecting him as a lover.

-The ending of the film was ridiculous. We've just enormous feelings and passions blitz through, and we are treated to an upset her and a foolish him propositioning about sex? Seriously? Are we treated as such dumb consumers that we would think a bit of shagging would solve the whole issue? It was a complete cop out.

Now I can see where they were TRYING to go with her character, eg someone who sacrificed a lot, but it made no sense. She ALWAYS (through our knowledge of the films anyway) was idealistic about various issues, not career focused. So to suddenly swap over and change was not fair on anyone. How was he to instantly adjust when she suddenly wants to blow in everything that she has always fought and believed in, to go and work for a bloke that even Jesse says he doesn't trust!

It came across quite clear that she never wanted the children. What an abdication of responsibility. Yes, surprise surprise, children are hard work and change the nature of life. It affected him, just as much as it did her.

The rant about looking after children etc was completely absurd. Their relationship was that petty that this was the sole issue? Granted he may not have pulled his weight (which wasn't fully explored due to the nature of their argument), but it came across like she was just fundamentally bitter about everything. How could a life be built around that?


(I did have a load written, but frankly, I'm not going to waste even more of my time).

In summary, I found this film to be depressing, cynical, dislikeable and ultimately: unrealistic.

People are not ultimately like this, and such dysfunctional, bitter and repugnant characters (whilst perhaps growing in trend), are not the norm, no matter how edgy the writers of the film wanted it to be.


I shall recommend to everyone that this series is like The Matrix. The first one is awe inspiring, the second and third doesn't live up to expectations and should be avoided to avert tainting of the first.

0/10

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Although a bit more harsh than the 1st two films, I found it to be very realistic.
Instead of trying to convince you of anything now, I'd urge you to re-visit this movie and this post in about 10 or 20 years.

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Instead of trying to convince you of anything now, I'd urge you to re-visit this movie and this post in about 10 or 20 years.

Have to fully agree with this. The movie made me uncomfortable just as much as the first dealt with romance and the second dealt with the consequences of living life you didn't entirely plan on. And that's because, nearing 40, it hit very close to home about relationships and the way people connect with one another as you get older.

I think anyone in their 20s will look at this movie quite differently when they get near the same age as the characters. That's not a slight against someone younger; it really is a reflection of experience, though.






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maybe you people should consider a different partner.

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I agree, it's not my favourite movie ever, but the portrayal of relationship development over years is very realistic (not saying that every relationship needs to take this direction, but it;s one of the options).

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I am in my late 40s, have been married for 10 years, and thought the OP was spot on.

This is a sad, cheap film.

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Although a bit more harsh than the 1st two films, I found it to be very realistic.
Instead of trying to convince you of anything now, I'd urge you to re-visit this movie and this post in about 10 or 20 years.


+1

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its been 8 years, wonder how their life is going. u think life would get better as you get older but it doesnt, I miss being young and not knowing anything...

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I agree with the OP too. It was a complete betrayal of Linklater to his fans. Celine was toxic and Jesse was addicted to her. Disappointing to say the least.

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I can see what you're saying. It really does have a different flavour compared to the other two. Just hear me out for a moment, because I would like to try and convey a different perspective on all three of these movies. It's a bit long, but I hope it makes for an interesting read and I would really appreciate any comments. I want to start by giving a very basic crash course in brain physiology and how it applies to the movie. Now, the human brain is considered to be one of the most complex objects in the known universe, so I am over-simplifying immensely here, but for the purposes of this discussion, please note that I'll be colouring inside of the lines.

So, the brain has three very different, but interconnected, systems that generate the rainbow of emotions. The first is the system that was designed to protect us from physical danger. When triggered, the fight/flight response floods the body with adrenaline so that we can hit hard or run fast if danger appears. Basic Emotions: Fear, anxiety, anger, disgust, etc.

Now, we don't have many life or death situations that we have to face these days, but since evolution doesn't have a 'delete' key, our brains are still wired for the fight/flight. I'll come back to this.

The second system is related to drive, motivation, success, and achievement. When we hit goals and targets, this system releases the high energy chemical dopamine, which feels great for a short period of time. Think about the athlete on top of the podium at the Olympics, the graduate at a commencement ceremony, or the business man who just made a deal worth millions. Basic Emotions: Elation, satisfaction, pride, etc.

Lastly, as mammals we evolved a system that allows us to attach to one another. When feeling a close, intimate connection with another human being, the brain is flooded with the chemical oxytocin. This allows us to form social bonds and attach to our mates and our children. It's also involved in our ability to feel calm, relaxed, and soothed. Basic Emotions: Contentment, connectedness, love, empathy, etc.

I think of these systems a little bit like the pixels in the screen that you're looking at right now. Essentially, the screen is emitting three different colours: red, blue, and green. When combined at different strengths, though, they are able to represent every colour in the spectrum. It's the same with emotions. Each of these three systems essentially combine to form all human emotions.

So, what's the point of all of this? Well, the point is that we all have this same brain design and are programmed to sense danger, have goals in life, and to desire connecting with others. Unfortunately, as life moves on we sometimes find ourselves in a place when those three different systems collide in such a way that makes things really unpleasant and very uncomfortable. Without a clear understanding of these systems, we tend to make matters worse.

Now, to be absolutely clear about this, I think that this movie is genius and the writers have rather insightfully led Jesse and Celine to a very natural place after what we saw in the last two movies. This is realism to such a fantastic degree. Having explained the brain, let me tell you why I think this:

Eighteen years ago, for those few hours, two 23-year olds had the best night of their lives. The threat system was completely offline, the drive system was also tuned down heavily, and the attachment system was in overdrive. Oxytocin would have been pumping, and that's a great feel-good chemical. They didn't have a care in the world and were completely focused on the present moment. Pure joy! Oxytocin, by the way, floods the brain during orgasm (natures way of helping us attach to mates), so there was also that added bonus for them too. Who wouldn't want that? We watch this movie, because it vicariously triggers that system in us as well.

Flash forward nine years. They meet again in their 30's. Jesse has just released his book and Celine is well into her career (enter the drive system). They have goals and life plans, some of which have gone slightly awry. Jesse's in a near loveless marriage and, if memory serves me, Celine is single (so generally, they're both low on that attachment system). Despite all of that, though, they pick up where they left off, putting life on hold and, again, they engage in the present moment, connecting with one another and getting that attachment system back online. It's a wonderful feeling and like last time, we watch, get our own attachment system active, and feel good watching them connect. Want proof that your own oxytocin levels go up when you watch these two movies? How connected do YOU feel to Jesse and Celine? Most fans of these movies think of them as if they are their own friends. We feel for them; we root for them. Why do I care if they get together? Because, I like them and have attached to them. Oxytocin!

So, that's Before Sunrise/Sunset in a couple of paragraphs. The next nine years, though, is very different than the first nine years. Between Sunset and Midnight, they're together, forming a life. Where those first two days together were all about the attachment system and being in the moment, they then started to merge their lives and include their goals (drive system), which means stepping out of the present moment to plan for the future, but where their mutual connection stimulated their attachment system, their goals are not necessarily entirely compatible with each other. Not only that, but once the twins are born, Celine looses much of her professional identity (drive) and Jesse misses out on his relationship with his son (attachment).

The problem with being human in the 21st century is that our threat system doesn't just go off when there is possible danger to the body. It also goes off when there is a danger to either of the other two systems. This was why the hotel scene was absolutely beautiful! Despite all of the love, all of the connection, and all of the oxytocin, their very relationship has become an obstacle to important parts of their lives. Celine had very justifiable goals and Jesse has a son. That sets off the fight/flight response in them both. Ironically, it works the other way around too. Celine's career hopes and Jesse's desire to be closer to Hank are also a threat to the relationship, which means that they both attack the other's position without listening to it.

When the threat system is online, we get very narrow-minded and have a difficult time thinking logically. The part of the brain responsible for reason, logic, planning, and judgement - right at the very front of the brain - stops working. So, they are both feeling threatened, which takes the attachment system offline (completely in Celine's case - "I don't love you anymore"). Sadly, the importance of the threat system to our very physical survival means that it is also the most well-developed and will completely obliterate the other two.

I do hope that you watch Before Midnight again, taking into account the idea that the first nine years will be very different from the last nine years. I don't want to get all when-you-get-to-be-my-age on you, so I won't. I will point out, though, that at your age of 24, the events of Before Sunrise would have just happened to you last year! Life will be different in 17 years. The key to keeping a relationship from going off the rails is to recognise when your threat system is being triggered and to learn how to get that heart-rate down when it does (a few deep breaths and a decision not to ruminate will help). A healthy relationship needs at least 5 positive 'attachment' events for every negative 'threat' event. We are hard-wired to focus on the negative. You and your partner will have differences in life visions, goals, and circumstances. Acknowledge them and reconcile, knowing that love DOES NOT conquer all, but threat will unless we override it! Jesse and Celine don't have this information and might not last as a result.

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[deleted]

You really made my day. I couldn't explained better.

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Thanks for the post, Kurgan, that's easily the most insightful post I've yet to read on IMDB.

Also, I disagree with the several posters' notions that the final scene was a cop-out that in essence negates the 2 prior hours. I see it as in fact a temporary ceize-fire concession by Delpy's character. The problems that have come to light have not gone away, and are meant to leave us pondering about the future of the couple- just as the previous two films did.

I have immense respect for Linklater and Co. for taking this approach over the saccharine alternative.

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What a great post Kurgan-4. Just like the movie so identifiable.

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@Kurgan-4

One word: BRILLIANT.

_____________________________________________
Vala Morgulis

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I absolutely agree with you, a fantastic review!

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That was marvellous, Kurgan!

Thanks for posting! :)

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I agree wholeheartedly with you, acdtest.

I just watched this film for the first time on a flight, and wish I could get those two hours or so back to watch something - anything - at least somewhat less poisonous.

I completely agree that this was all about Ethan Hawke and Julie Delpy pouring their bitterness at the dissolution of their own marriages into this, instead of investing in the actual characters.

While there were about 30 seconds of real truth in what they said to each other, the rest was almost unbearable.

I've been married for 23 years, and some of it has not been pretty. There were things they said to each other in this movie that no one in his or her right mind would tolerate, no matter how much love they might think is still there.

I found myself relating much more to Jesse than to Celine, and I am a professional woman who has made some sacrifices here and there for her husband. I just found her shrill and irrational, and the fact that the director and she let that happen pisses me off.



Whatever it is you two have, he started something in you. It's infecting the others.


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I completely agree that this was all about Ethan Hawke and Julie Delpy pouring their bitterness at the dissolution of their own marriages into this, instead of investing in the actual characters.


Huh?? Ethan Hawke split from Uma Thurman in 2004 and has been married to his second wife since 2008. No mention of a divorce in his IMDB bio. No mention of a marriage or divorce for Julie Delpy, though she did give birth to a son by her BF in 2009. Have they split up?

There are a lot of legitimste reasons to be unhappy with this film, but to suggest the two leads gave unlikable performances because of problems in their personal lives seems far fetched.

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I completely agree that this was all about Ethan Hawke and Julie Delpy pouring their bitterness at the dissolution of their own marriages into this, instead of investing in the actual characters.


I don't think their marriages caused the problem. I think the actors all wanted to go with a huge, dramatic, explosive, emotional climax ("I want to thank my new wife, my agent, ..."), but Linklater didn't realize that without a proper buildup, and the lame attempt at an ending, that it was going to be flaws in the movie's dramatic construction.

How can two relatively perceptive people can be so utterly clueless at the anger they were building towards each other? Was there any hint of a "mommie clock" going off in Celine in the previous movie? Then why does it take roughly 9 years later to realize career was more important to her than kids? Was there anything in Celine's previous makeup that suggested that Celine was the kind of person who would keep her true feelings suppressed for nine years?

If you want to feel miserable and emotionally violated at the end of the movie, then yes, this was a great movie. But I'm the kind of person who wants a story to make some consistent sense, even if its not a happy conclusion, and I think the movie is flawed because it failed to do this.

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I found myself relating much more to Jesse than to Celine, and I am a professional woman who has made some sacrifices here and there for her husband. I just found her shrill and irrational, and the fact that the director and she let that happen pisses me off.


Thank you. It’s reassuring to know that my view of Celine as a toxic witch in this film is not the result of my maleness, but an objective viewpoint also held by women.

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Not only does experience (life stage) factor heavily into how you view the third film (favorably, or not), but so does being a cynic or an optimist as well... Something Jessie addressed in "Before Sunset" with how people responded to his book.

Just because Celine and Jessie got into a knock down, drag out fight in the hotel room doesn't mean they are going to split up. They might physically separate for a while, but that doesn't mean they can't work through whatever problems were hinted at in the fight and get back together when they hit 50. This is an optimistic point of view, obviously, but it's also why I don't get so bent out of shape with this installment being "realistic".

Before Sunrise is pure fantasy.

Before Sunset is lite fantasy + lite realism.

Before Midnight is heavily realistic.

So, the next chapter will hopefully loop back around to fantasy + heavy realism to end the series on a hopeful, yet realistic note if they follow this pattern.

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Both are in a stage of life where real life hits you. When they first met they had there youth.

Its that man again!!

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Completely agree with you, OP. And I find some of the subsequent comments rather patronizing. Just because OP is young doesn't mean he hasn't hit the nail on the head. And we didn't really need a long explanation of brain chemistry and the fight/flight response--- what does that have to do with commentary on how well a film is made?

I am female and much older than the OP, and have been through a bad marriage and now a very good one, so I don't think anyone needs to explain relationships to me. It seems clear that an enormous amount of bitterness went into this screenplay, and I agree with posters who feel that the integrity of the characters was betrayed.

I was VERY, VERY disappointed with how shrill, irrational and just plain mean Celine was throughout this film. She came across as a selfish, impatient, ball-busting whiner who could barely contain her contempt for Jesse. The nasty things she said to him in private were bad enough, but she attacked him so viciously in front of the dinner group that the others had to actually shush her.

Most of all, though, the ending was inexcusable. They went to the trouble of setting up a deep-rooted, seemingly insurmountable conflict between the two characters and then suddenly it's just solved because Jesse suggests they go have sex? That was the lamest thing I have ever seen. The two of them deciding quietly to handle the situation and accept that someone won't get their way.... or even deciding to go their separate ways, would have made sense. But that was a cop-out all the way around.

A sad, disappointing ending to what promised to be a wonderful trilogy.

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Good summary.

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While I can see where Celine came off as much more negative in this, I think there are a few things to bear in mind. One (and this is the knife through my heart as well), Jesse cheated on her, and apparently this has never been fully dealt with on her end. I think there was also some insinuation that she cheated as well, I don't remember, but even so, those feelings would be harbored. Second, as a 30-year-old woman who never wants children, this part of the scenario struck me deeply, to the point of tears. It is an extremely realistic struggle to feel pressure to have children, but to feel like to do so is completely denying your own identity that, as a woman trying to be taken seriously in the world, you've fought very hard for, and to fight against that identity devolving into the pigeonhole of "nurturer", "wife and mother", and then in her case, having passed that point of no return for whatever reason, having to deal with that regret. It was very moving - it's the regret mothers don't talk about because they're not allowed to.

That said, I agree that the ending was cheap and devalued every other emotionally charged moment that had led to it.

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dcdaria.. there is another thread on this board that discusses this incident.. it was never admitted and you can never know for sure. Anyway, I think he should have been clearer on this matter with her and he should be loyal to her.
BUT.. this was not even the real issue.

Being a mother and a wife DOESN'T limit the woman or make her submissive. On the contrary, she may have been able to maintain an interesting and giving career (as many women I know have made it) while providing an interesting life to a new generation of her own. This was a challenge that would lifted her from her narrow-minded, selfish, and self-centered status that could not serve her purpose of improving as a human. When you're sacrificing you're just growing bigger.

Also, she could not see that her partner had given up a lot and she should do the same. So, if there is this thing about the identity and nurturer...... it means that he has no dreams, wishes, feelings.. he wanted to be with his son. All she had to say is that he is growing and you have missed his childhood!

Anyway, I cannot say I liked any of the characters.. very disappointing especially if compared to the first two movies.

Agree with the OP

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Spoken like a person who will never have to make the sacrifices a woman makes in regards to career and family.

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What ‘sacrifice’? Either have the career you want, or follow your impulses to have and raise children and let your husband bring home the bacon, leaving you the time to enjoy hobbies or a modest career doing something you love.

Pro-tip: women who don’t go to war with their own natural impulses are a lot happier.

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"rantings of a hardcore liberal"? Now who's spewing crap? What in the hell do you see as "hardcore liberal" here? Speaking as a hardcore liberal, and 4 decades older than the OP here, and a woman, I will say to all of you that there's nothing to keep a veteran female happily married liberal from finding Celine in particular to have been an extremely disappointing caricature of stereotyped female diatribing.

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