MovieChat Forums > Barbara (2012) Discussion > Rembrant's painting analysis

Rembrant's painting analysis


After seeing this film a second time, I am quite disappointed that it has not gained more popularity amongst cinephiles.

That being said, one of the best scenes in this movie, in my opinion, was Dr. Andre's analysis on Rembrandt's picture of the autopsy. I was curious as to what thoughts you all have in regards to this painting and the significance it has in the movie. I read a lot about the painting after so I have a good indication of what the purpose was, but I would still love to hear what you all think.

So please share your thoughts.

reply

YOU:

After seeing this film a second time, I am quite disappointed that it has not gained more popularity amongst cinephiles.


ME:

I couldn't agree with you MORE!

_________________________________________________________________________


About the Rembrandt painting, which bothered me mightily, and still does:

I disagreed with Andre's anaylsis of it. Why would so many knowledgable Docs look at an (incorrect!) anatomical atlas and not at what they were actually doing which was ATTACHING THE WRONG DAMN HAND to a corpse?
Made no sense to me.
Seemed to be a superfluous operation not to mention not part of an actual autopsy!
Barbara remarked that they should have cut open the victim's abdomen, first, and she was correct. Then again, the medical science of doing autopsies had likely been so refined back then, either, so ....






PROUD member of PETA: People for the Eating of Tasty Animals

reply

I see the painting as a metaphor of the film, the theme, the setting and all the characters.
There are victims as the dead body, the authorities as the doctor, the authorities supporters as guys following the doctor's direction, they study the altas like the political doctrine, examine the body like the strip/cavity search of the victims. Both Barbara and Andre claim the painting clinically wrong, just like the film claims the oppression and victimization in the East Germany are wrongdoings.

reply



JacquesDemy,

Interesting interpretation, here.

Not sure what the director wanted us to think of this scene, but, I wouldn't be shocked if he intended us to think about that scene in the same manner that you have. I've read and heard (in video interviews) where the director of this film is quite deliberate in his actions, etc.

It never occurred to me to view the scene in this manner. I didn't want to read too much into it, but ... now that I've read what you've written ....

PROUD member of PETA: People for the Eating of Tasty Animals

reply


(1) it was an anatomy lesson, not an autopsy, so Barbara's comment about the abdomen was irrelevant.
(2) What's anatomically incorrect about the painting? Looks OK to me.

reply

hendem:

1) To perform an autopsy well, one has to know one's anatomy.

2) Look more closely. Barbara was correct.



PROUD member of PETA: People for the Eating of Tasty Animals

reply

DogtownGirl:

1) Er, yes. But it's not an autopsy. It's an anatomy lesson. They are studying the anatomy of the upper limb. Perhaps they'll get around to the abdomen later.
2) I've looked closely at that painting. Does Andre say that Rembrandt has mistakenly put a right arm on the left side of the body? Would he really do that? The limb they are studying is a left arm, lying supine. (Palm up. )

reply


Hello there, hendem,


Answer to your question in #2) No, Andre didn't. Barbara did. Mind you, I don't recall the exact translation (I don't speak German, sadly) but it was Babs who said the representation was wrong.
Andre was curious about what all of the doctors were looking at, and why!


PROUD member of PETA: People for the Eating of Tasty Animals

reply

Andre claims that Rembrandt mistakenly put a right arm on the left side of the body. However, neither Wikipedia nor anywhere else on the Internet seems to confirm this. The biggest error I can find is:

> incorrectly shows that the flexor muscles of the forearm originate in the lateral epicondyle instead of the medial.

Which seems relatively minor by comparison. If it really depicted the wrong arm, I'm sure Wikipedia would be all over that.

reply

>The limb they are studying is a left arm, lying supine (Palm up)

I ain't no doctor, but the tendons running on TOP of the hand and being studied by the group are clearly visible... meaning it's a right hand facing palm down, not a left hand facing palm up, no?

reply

Yep, exactly. or at least something like this.

It's a reflection on the film's own narrative and subject matter. That is why I liked this part so much.

reply

[deleted]

It's a right hand on a left arm. Rembrandt may have made a mistake by painting bit by bit, at seperate times (Cadaver first, figures behind second, their faces individually, the hand later)?

Perhaps in Barbara the 'atlas' is meant to represent Marx's manifesto. The right hand on the left arm (right/left East/West communism/fascism), the distance between Marx's intention and how it manifested.

reply

[deleted]

Allow me to correct my previous comment. I intended to begin it with the word 'if', and switch the first full stop with a comma, as I am unfamiliar with the structure of a peeled hand. I will accept bluesdoctor's authority on the matter, because I can't be bothered to further research it myself (so I'm still looking at the finger rather than the moon).

But, I did have a quick browse of the painting's wikipedia page: "Medical specialists have commented on the accuracy of muscles and tendons painted by the 26-year-old Rembrandt. It is not known where he obtained such knowledge; it is possible that he copied the details from an anatomical textbook. However, in 2006 Dutch researchers recreated the scene with a male cadaver, revealing several discrepancies of the exposed left forearm compared to that of a real corpse."

Perhaps the film was referring to these discrepancies, but there was confusion in the translation of the subtitles (just a guess, my understanding of German is less than my understanding of skinned hands).

Anyway, more interpretations of the scene: The body is a condemned and executed man; East German society is condemned by its criminal (thief) politics, which are unsustainable in the long term, and therefore condemned to die? Freedom for artists to study human anatomy advanced medicine; freedom allows progress? Starting at the wrist rather than the abdomen; political leaders are faulted in their process of reasoning? The voyeurism of looking inside a person?

Speculative interpretations could go on and on. I'm sure many could be generated for most paintings. That scene was included to trigger imaginations, which is an intelligent idea. But in terms of plot, it was mainly there to reveal to Barbara that André rebels in his thoughts; his position as an informer doesn't define him, he's thought deeply about it, and it's just a reality he's had to accept in order to help patients as effectively as he can.

reply

[deleted]

Forgive me for the audacity to resist a doctor's opinion for I am not a doctor (although I put one through medical school a few lifetimes ago), but the biggest challenge I can see to your defiant certainty about the accuracy of Rembrandt's painting (conceivably an intentional inaccuracy, as Dr. Reiser suggests in the film) is that the controversy among doctors and within anatomical science has been so persistent apparently for decades or centuries that in 2006 an investigation comparing the painting to an actual dissected left forearm was undertaken in the Netherlands and published in The Journal of Hand Surgery. This is the abstract:

Rembrandt’s The Anatomy Lesson of Dr. Nicolaes Tulp (1632) is considered a masterpiece and is a group portrait of the Amsterdam Guild of Surgeons in the form of an anatomy lesson. Dr. Nicolaes Tulp, Doctor of Medicine and Praelector Anatomiae to the Amsterdam Guild of Surgeons, showed an anatomic dissection of a forearm on the corpse of an executed criminal. The anatomic accuracy in Rembrandt’s famous painting has been discussed in the literature for decades without any general consensus. In 2006, on the 400th anniversary of Rembrandt’s birth, a forearm dissection of a cadaver and a comparison with the anatomy in the painting are presented to analyze the anatomic accuracy of Rembrandt’s famous painting.

While I don't have access to reading the entire article, only this abstract, its findings are summarized in wikipedia as revealing that there are "several discrepancies" that were found by this 2006 study. It's enough to suggest that being dismissive of any controversy about the painting's depiction seems unwarranted.

reply

[deleted]

bluesdoctor, thanks so much for explaining penzold's error (which i'm guessing was intentional because he needed a painting to illustrate andre's explanation about focusing on the victim and not the authorities, and this painting almost fit the bill.little did Penzold know that his fictional conceit would cause such an uproar amongst detail-fixated film viewers!!) whew! now i can move on to other issues! thx again.







The way to have what we want
Is to share what we have.

reply

p.s. doc, what appears to fool so many of us into thinking that the dissected hand is not the palm of the left hand- is the absence of any tissue that looks like a palm. is that because the palm tissue doesn't show when you peel back the skin to expose the ligaments etc? when you peel back the thin layer of skin that covers the palm, there's no tissue there that would cover some of those ligaments? or is it that anatomical drawings never show tissue ?thx for the help.
i found this anatomical drawing that shows, again, the palm side of the hand:

http://www.healthline.com/human-body-maps/palmar-interossei-hand#3/1






The way to have what we want
Is to share what we have.

reply

I enjoyed everyone's viewpoints regarding the Rembrandt painting in Barbara. There is a lot to ponder on this theme. It meant a lot to Dr. Reiser, because he said his biggest desire to leave East Germany is to see this painting in The Hague.

Whatever this painting represents means a lot to him.

His sensitivity and insight further made a reluctant Barbara begin to fall in love with him. This is a kind and intellectual man, while Jorg is clearly the typical 80s yuppie with not much depth.

While this painting may be a political allegory, I also think it can express Dr. Reiser's disillusionment with the medical profession and at himself.

He caused two children to lose their sight. He must be burdened with a lot of grief and guilt over this event, and also he, a top Berlin doctor, is being "punished" by being sent to a rural town.

In the painting, the doctors and scientists seem totally clueless. They are blindly consulting the book and don't really know what they're doing. Maybe that's how Dr Reiser feels about himself and the medical profession.

transcendcinema.blogspot.com

reply

This may shed light on this question.

Jennifer Xu, "The Body Vanished," Hektoen International, Volume 8, Issue 1 - Winter 2016 ISSN 2155-3017

http://www.hektoeninternational.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1258:the-body-vanished-sebald-s-view-of-dissection-in-rembrandt-s-the-anatomy-lesson-of-dr-nicolaes-tulp&catid=93&Itemid=435

I submit that Christian Petzold, the best of contemporary German filmmakers, is referencing W.G. Sebald, the best of contemporary German writers.

reply

Seemed to me a critique of the East German government. Everyone knows what the government is doing is wrong, but they all look past it as if all is okay.

reply