MovieChat Forums > Jagten (2013) Discussion > Do you blame Grethe for what she did?

Do you blame Grethe for what she did?

posted 9 years ago by eolloe
36 replies | jump to latest

From a number of the comments posted in other threads, it seems many viewers blamed Grethe for being evil or nasty.

I see it a bit differently. First, let me say that I came to seeing it this way by asking myself how would I have reacted if I had been in Grethe's position. And how should I or any reasonable person have reacted?

I think almost everything Grethe did was right, up until the point at which she basically self-convicted Lucas solely based on her erroneous belief that children never lie (by which she apparently also meant that children also never are confused about things and never misinterpret situations) and she told him to leave and never return and wouldn't even talk to him.

But prior to that point, I think she did what most reasonable, well-meaning people should do. She brought in a supposedly outside party to try to interview the child. She put the accused person on leave and notified the authorities. And she notified the staff and parents that an accusation had been made and that an investigation was underway.

The way she later treated Lucas - and Nadja - though, was wrong. As were the ways the townsfolk behaved toward Lucas and Marcus. But prior to those actions, they were all just victims of a series of tragic misunderstandings for which no one was really blameworthy.

(edit: previously wrote "maria" instead of "nadja")

[–] resmat-1 9 years ago

"Evil" would be too harsh, but she definitely takes the matter too much into her own hands, even though, by her own admission, she doesn't really know how to handle the situation. A lot of what you might consider her honest mistakes have terrible consequences. Anyway, here's a list of some of the things that I think might be mistakes.

1) She invites Ole the psychiatrist to the nursery while Lucas is still finishing his shift like she told him to.

Wouldn't it have been more sensitive to have just sent Lucas home if she knew that Ole was coming? And there's also the possibility that, by looking at which children are outside, Lucas would be able to deduce who the psychiatrist is interviewing.

2) She chooses someone she knows personally to perform the crucial first interview.

Not a great move.

3) She arranges for the interview to be conducted in an office from which Klara can hear the sounds of other children having fun outside.

Not a great move.

4) She impacts Klara's answers during the interview.

Ole: “Try to tell me what Lucas did. Tell me about that, Klara.”

Klara: “I’d like to go out and play.”

Grethe: “You just have to answer. Don’t be afraid. Ole won’t hurt you. He just wants to know what’s happened.”

Grethe plants the idea in Klara's head that she'll be allowed to go out and play if she just gives them the answers they want.

Ole: “Did you touch it? Do you remember? Did… [Ole tilts his head forward] something white come out of it?”

Grethe vomits in the bin.

She then sits idly by while Ole continues to use leading questions, even though he's now introducing two previously unmentioned things to the conversation -- namely, the idea that Klara might have touched Lucas' penis and the idea that Lucas might have ejaculated. She also unintentionally makes her own distress obvious to Klara when she vomits. Perhaps it would've been better if Grethe hadn't been involved in the interview?

5) She plants ideas in Klara's mother's head.

Grethe: “Something has occurred that shouldn’t occur between children and adults. I haven’t been able to prevent it. I’m terribly sorry. Klara has recounted sexual details about an adult. I don’t believe a child would lie in that way.”

[quote]Agnes: “It sound very confusing. What are you telling me?”

Grethe: “It seems that Klara has been a victim of sexual abuse here. Probably by someone close to you.”

Agnes: “Sexual abuse?”

Grethe: “The things she said… she’ll probably deny everything because she’s embarrassed.”

She begins by telling Agnes that something has occurred and saying that she's "terribly sorry", both of which suggest that the case is more clear-cut than it actually is. She then tells Agnes that Klara will probably deny everything, which means that the film's audience is likely going to hold Grethe at least partly responsible for Agnes' behaviour later in the film. Anyway, not only does Grethe hold the erroneous belief that children don't lie, she's also guilty of passing that belief on to others.

6) What seems like that same night, she gives 15 or so parents vague details about the accusation and puts them on the lookout for symptoms of abuse.

Arguably a premature move.

Also, her two female co-workers are sat beside her at the meeting but Lucas isn't. Does that, coupled with the fact that Klara's mother leaves early, give away the fact that Lucas is the one under investigation?

8) She phones Marcus' mother without Lucas' knowledge and, whatever it is that she says, it's bad enough to lead Marcus to tell Lucas that "they" are saying he isn't allowed to talk to his dad.

An unfair move.

9) Even though she's not a psychiatrist, it looks as though Grethe allows the parents to come and talk to her about their suspicions before they've spoken to the police.

A questionable move.

10) Lucas attempts to talk with her and she runs away.

A rather unfair move.

Also, at this point, everyone seems to know that the person under investigation is Lucas. Would it be fair to blame Grethe for that?

11) She tells Nadja that Lucas is under investigation and sits idly by while one of the four or five other women in attendance explains that there's little doubt about Lucas' guilt.

An unfair move.

Grethe also points out that there are a lot of times when Lucas was alone with the children, which means that she's now giving people ideas for when and where Lucas might have done the crime.

***

I know that I'm nit-picking Grethe's behaviour but, unfortunately, a lot of what she did had serious consequences. As I said, I don't think she's "evil" or "nasty" but she should have recognised that she was getting in over her head. I can definitely see why she and Agnes are two of the more disliked characters in the film.

[–] eolloe 9 years ago

I agree that a number of the actions she took were ill-advised, from the perspective of how optimally to handle such situations. But that's different than saying she was a b****, as someone wrote in another thread. Some of what she did was well-intentioned but misguided due to lack of knowledge/training in what experts might say are the best ways to handle these kinds of situations. And they seemed to be in a small village, not in the middle of a metropolis where they (Grethe and the authorities) would have had ready access to specialists or people highly experienced in handling cases like this, so I can see why she would ask Ole to help with the case.

[–] resmat-1 9 years ago

I think a lot of people in the audience single out Grethe because her actions mark a turning point in the film.

She was there when Ole botched the interview. She was the one who prematurely revealed to everyone that Lucas was under investigation. She was the one who planted the idea in Agnes' head that Klara wouldn't lie. She was the one who gave everybody the idea that more than one child was involved. She was the one who talked to Lucas' family behind his back.

How many honest mistakes can we forgive? She'd worked with Lucas and knew him well but she made all these mistakes and then she prematurely turned against him and refused to hear his side of the story. I wouldn't call her a "b****" since she's not really 'spiteful or unpleasant' but I can't say I particularly like her.

[–] przgzr 7 years ago

She'd worked with Lucas and knew him well but she made all these mistakes and then she prematurely turned against him and refused to hear his side of the story.

This adds one more to the collection of her mistakes.

In the world where sexual abuse (especially if a child is a victim) became an absolute #1 crime, when a wrong look or face expression can make a man lose his reputation, a wrong word lose his job and a wrong touch lose his freedom, many people react histerically when a hint of abuse appears. So, if Grethe really, knowing Lucas, had any doubts and thought that he might have done what he was accused for (if the word "accused" can be used at all) she should have sent him home immidiately and not let him do the rest of the shift among the kids, and then follow the procedure she must have been trained for. But instead of that she refuses to do anything (when most of kindergarten principals would overreact, either because their attitudes tend to lynch mentality, or simply because they want to keep their job without risk of being accused for a weak and slow reaction) because she knows Lucas well enough to find this situation too hard to believe; so she waits too long to do anything, and then, suddenly, when she could have cleared her thoughts and make rational and calm moves she starts doing so many irrational and illogical things one after another.

[–] smuuf 9 years ago

She's not a bitch. She's an idiot.

[–] LeonardPine 8 years ago

"She's not a bitch. She's an idiot."

Exactly. Her actions in the film are moronic. That's the only flaw I can find with the film. She's just a bit too stupid to be a realistic head teacher.

Having said that I'm sure there are these kind of idiots in authoritative positions. Especially women.

Was it a millionaire who said "Imagine no possessions"?

[–] przgzr 7 years ago

Nope. She is a very realistic 21st century head teacher who doesn't want to be accused for "not acting in the best interest of a child" and be crucified by media that form modern mentality for refusing a prompt reaction that will give media big headlines (and money) and enable them to arrange a lynch - the most popular fun of 21st century people. And if the (alleged) perpetrator escapes the head teacher would fit quite well as a substitute in this fun.

[–] oktjabr 9 years ago

I agree. It is interesting, in a sense, because she is in a delicate situation, making a call that she isn't really competent making.

If we imagine a reverse situation, where abuse is real and character simply nods off possible signs of it, she'd be vilified as well.

[–] rschindhelm 8 years ago

Add to 4) the fact that Grethe suggested Klara to begin with what she said about the heart-shaped present, resulting in the elimination of one possible contradictory answer from Klara's testimony.

Also Grethe and Ole didn't even bother to dig deeper as Klara denied the fact that Lucas did something to her. That left me with the opinion that there was never a chance of having an unbiased interview to begin with.

Otherwise I think I've been interpreting and evaulating the same you did.

[–] Dmitri_King 8 years ago

I think you are being too generous in your assessment of Grethe. Her behavior was abhorrent. I noticed all 11 of the items in your list, and they all made me angry as they occurred in the film (Excellent job by the actors and filmmaker).

I think you left out one of the most outrageous things she did: She tells the parents to report back to her if any of the kids are having headaches or nightmares.

Seriously? Headaches? Nightmares? How absurd is that?

And then, when some parents report the obvious fact that yes, some kids did have a headache or a nightmare, she presents that as evidence of widespread abuse? Not just evidence, but damning evidence?? That was the point at which the situation really spun out of control.

Agnes was terrible too. Most of the behavior by the townspeople was horrible. None of them ever bothered to ask the crucial question, which was, "What exactly did Klara actually accuse Lucas of doing?"

What was Klara's initial remark? Something along the lines of:

"I hate Lucas. He's stupid and ugly. And... he has a penis. And... it points straight up like a rod."

She doesn't actually say he DID anything. And EVERY time she was questioned after that, she never actually gives an answer. The adults just state the accusation until she nods.

And no one seemed concerned by the fact that all the kids were describing a basement THAT DOES NOT EXIST?

The only thing that surprised me about the film was that Lucas was so forgiving.

[–] przgzr 7 years ago

Forgiving? I don't see much forgiveness. He knows that in our society a person in his position has no chances. Whatever he does is wrong. He can't prove his innocence because nobody would let such a horrible person talk. He can't leave the town because of the investigation, and can't live in it because they won't even sell him food. But if he tries to confront he has no chance: he is a hunter and he knows what it means to be a free game - anybody could kill him at any point and with no risk, in fact they would like him to do it because the one killing him would become a hero that rescued the community.

[–] secondacc 8 years ago

Great reply

[–] RomeoKnight 9 years ago

Definitely! What a bitch. She was well aware that accusations will destroy him. With very weak evidence she kept on spreading the story to all colleagues, kids parents etc, and soon the whole town knew it. A nasty spread of rumor based on no facts towards a trusted man which she had been working for god knows how many years. With very weak proofs and knowing the fact that kids sometimes (very often if you ask me) make up stories like that, is no ground to start a manhunt. It wasn't long ago in newspapers when some teenage girl claimed she had been abducted by some pervert old man. A big police operation happened and all just to later discover that the girl had lied. She never got kidnapped. She just skipped the school. This things are more common than we are told in the media.

The movie is good in a sense that it tells a much silently kept problem how men can be prosecuted and their reputation destroyed for lifetime with such sexual accusations towards kids (or women). Even if the accusation is not true, whoever started the accusations will get little or no penalty (at least in Scandinavia) of her actions. These things happen only to men so women don't care about men having no justice towards these kinds of attacks. Politicians (men) don't dare to touch this subject because pedos are considered to belong same cast with murderers which is crazy. In many Muslim countries old farts can take 9-year old brides which is OK in their culture, but in western culture even showing a dick to a kid is considered very bad thing.

[–] Zombie55 9 years ago

2Albus - could you just expand on your part where you said "Kids very often make up stories like this", are you implying that even 5 year olds would know how to make jokes like that and why/how?

[–] cinecephale 8 years ago

Politicians (men) don't dare to touch this subject because pedos are considered to belong same cast with murderers which is crazy. In many Muslim countries old farts can take 9-year old brides which is OK in their culture, but in western culture even showing a dick to a kid is considered very bad thing.

What is crazy is to jump from masculinist views to pedophilia relativization just to prove your point about big bad female liars. The fact that men take very young brides in other cultures prove nothing. Do those girls agree? are they happy? can they chose? do they suffer? Hey, who cares, men can TAKE them! That's the problem with abuse and pedophilia relativization. The kids or victims are seen just a convinience or passive objects.

And yes, there certainly are false accusations, but there is a *beep* of sexual abuses that are not reported, or not believed, or people who get ridicoulous sentences for horrible acts that impact the life of victims forever.

So this kind of discourse is really, really disgusting.

[–] mtlddrms 9 years ago

I wouldn't say she was evil, but I did think she sort of handled the situation poorly.

[–] PeterMarkoff 9 years ago

I don't think she is evil, she is just very stupid and incompetent person who should not be in position where she was.

At beginning giving Lucas benefit of doubt she seemed reasonable, but then the hell broke. Btw. we know that lucas ain't working long time in nursery since he got fired from the other school so Grethe mayb not know him so well as other friends, so one can understand she can't be so sure how close to reality is what Klara says. Calling friend and not neutral professional party to do disgusting interview with child, where it seemed to me that her friend was child molester. She copletely misinterpreted her questions and together with child molester they forced girl who just wanted to play to tell them what they wanted to hear. Later hysterically running outside refusing to talk with Lucas like grown up people in office. Calling his child/exwife which has nothing to do with this situation probably even before she called cops.

She is the main reason all this happened so one can understand why people blame here for her unprofessional actions.

If she would really care about best interest of child and be professional:
1. tell Lucas what is he accused about, put him on leave,
2. call neutral professional conducting professional interview without distractions for child, not taking nodding for answer, not putting words into mouth of child,
3. call police, do NOT call anyone unrelated and do NOT inform anyone except people who need to be informed, if Lucas come to talk, talk with him like grown up, if you don't want just tell him in face you have nothing to say but don't run away like crazy old woman in woods.

My wife who was watching it 1st time with me (my 2nd time) had good point about Klara distracted by children during interview that she just wanna play and get it over with annoying interview with scary child molester friend of Grethe. And her reaction to dumping Lucas from going to work was follow legal action against them immediately. It was really poor judgement from lucas that he didn't consult immediately his steps with lawyer do minimize damage and he handled also situation in supermarket (call police, let them check CCTV, let them put guys in jail and shop pays fine for customer discrimination) and everything else quite bad (not doing anything after stone thrown into kitchen, not doing anything after finding dead dog). I know it must be difficult to keep straight mind under such horrible pressure and situation, but that's why you have lawyers and police, which seem quite reasonable by their portrayal in movie.

And especially after last hunting with shot into tree, I would probably move away, some people will still believe this nonsense and follow all legal actions against shop and nursery as he should do in beginning.

The best - Fight Club, American Beauty & Falling Down.

[–] Zombie55 9 years ago

I have a slighly different question.

Do you think at her age of 74, she both as a kindergarten teacher and an experienced adult should've known better in how to handle this matter? Or is age not necessarily always a factor of great wisdom?

On a different side - she still looks and looked so young at 74, like as if she was in her 50s.

What is that actress' secret of youth? Or do most Danish women look so young in their 70s?

And plus - what is an age of RETIREMENT for teachers in Denmark? And how long would you say she had till retirement? 5 years?

[–] przgzr 7 years ago

This is a small town, all of the people know each other. Policemen are one of them, it is quite possible that some of them had children in the same kindergarten and are the same people that reacted as threatened, jeopardized given information about possible abuse of their own children. Who do you think they would support if Lucas called them to the supermarket?

[–] PeterMarkoff 7 years ago

the one who can make them fired after filing complaint they don't follow law?

[–] przgzr 7 years ago

This is 21st century, people drive cars because they don't want to be pedestrians because the word starts with "ped" and therefore sounds very dangerous. Who would care for almost-convicted-pedophile's complaint? Their bosses would tear it to dust-size pieces after finding who made the complaint. Or Lucas would be accidentaly be hit by a car that nobody would see or hear and which would leave no traces. In fact, I am surprised that it didn't happen. Probably just because this is Denmark...

[–] pfarnell 9 years ago

I can understand doubt, but her reliance on her own erroneous misconceptions, which are not very well thought out or intelligent, to indict Lucas, I think still brands her as an imbecile.

And when her husband began to have his doubts, after at first being head of the lynch mob...her attempts to stupidly restrain or interfere with his efforts to resolve the mess also do not speak highly of her.
She not only went off half-cocked in a situation which was always going to be ruinous to the wrongly-accused...but then as the 'case' against him began to unravel...she remained obstinate in her original conclusion.
She lacked both the courage and integrity, and the intellect, to know that she morally HAD to get to the bottom of this thing, one way or the other, or do her best to..
Having lit this fuse,and put Lucas under this steamroller, as doubt resurfaced and grew, the missing attic, her daughters contradictory remarks, etc, she then buried her *beep* head in the sand.

What I can say for her, is that her character is drawn pretty realistically..what she did, is what people do..

[–] Zombie55 9 years ago

Plus - imagine if she only had 1 or 2 years left until retirement and now on her conscience arrives a false accusation situation that will live with her until she dies. And then she recalls it on her deathbed.

She'll probably think among other things - I wish I retired earlier.

[–] Zombie55 9 years ago

Is it better by the way to die with a clean conscience than to punish yourself all your life for making bad decisions?

[–] mitzibishi 8 years ago

She will be in denial till her death bed. She would convince herself its true no matter what to save her own self from guilt.

[–] Nemesis42 8 years ago

I would have got a professional in to analyze the child.
She summoned an unprofessional fool,
which makes her a fool.

[–] bushd0 8 years ago

I actually was waiting for the victim to kill many of them siding behind her saying he was guilty. Although I enjoyed the movie a lot I was waiting for retribution. The people you have been with and care about suddenly turn against you without any real "proof" How can you be friends with them again? Despite his best friend eventually telling what went on(not on screen) You have to eventually forgive the stupid sheep? Yay, finally he is accepted in the community again after they were wrong all along.. Such a relief(not) It's quite despicable. Apart from a very good friend and his son everyone doubted him. It's quite saddening. Human beings at their "best" This movie just show opportunism at it's best, with and without proof, for that I applaude it.

[–] ValleyMermaid 8 years ago

She wasn't evil but she was completely STUPID! And irresponsible! She caused an avalanche! She handled the entire thing so carelessly. She began spreading rumors immediately when there had not been an investigation and ZERO proof. And it's completely ignorant to think children always tell the truth. No they don't. They can easily be confused as well and be lead to say things they don't even understand they are saying. Her actions were horrific and she should never be in charge like that again. I know she's a made up character but it's not based on imaginations. People like that do exist and they destroy lives.