A new movie to hide the real truth - The Physician (2014) Discussion

[–] xaggurat 10 years ago

1. Haven't been always the case, and not all the time. Read history more. By the way the Christians haven't been better in any way for that matter.

2. Seems to me they at least did bend and kneel before sultans. Examples from Ottoman Empire and Persia:

http://www.gettyimages.fi/detail/illustration/sultan-suleyman-i-and-hi s-court-miniature-from-nuzhet-el-stock-graphic/112189820

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mahmoud_and_Ayaz.jpg

3. Well yeah all religions are nice and all that, but people use religions for their personal agenda. It happens in other religions too. God is always for both sides on the front, even if the religion is same.

4. What you say here is how I understood Bin Sina was portrayed in the movie. He had a strong faith and wanted to help people, that's how he was in the film. I don't understand your point at all, I don't see how this fact was changed.

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[–] Jag85 9 years ago

1. There is no records of any Christian expulsions in the Muslim world during the 11th century. That was clearly a fictional element added for dramatic purposes, so that Rob is forced to hide his Christian religion and learn about life as a Jew. It certainly made things more interesting, but it's not historically accurate.

2. Nowhere do those pictures show them kneeling. They bowed, like what the Japanese do today, but they never got on their knees and lowered their heads to the ground in front of a Sultan, which would have been considered blasphemous.

3. It's more or less true that there had always been a fundamentalist contingent in the Muslim world that opposed the sciences, but they never had any real power in the 11th century like what this movie showed. In the original book, they played a minor role, but the movie elevated them to a more significant role.

4. The movie was somewhat right about Ibn Sina's reluctance over human dissection for ethical reasons. Some parts of his Canon of Medicine hint that he may have performed human autopsy, but it's not entirely certain. It wasn't until 100 years later that Ibn Zuhr described a detailed human autopsy and 200 years until Ibn al-Nafis made the breakthrough discovery of how the circulatory system worked. However, one of Ibn Sina's major medical breakthroughs was how contagion spreads during a plague, which the movie credits to his fictional English student Rob Cole when it should have been Ibn Sina himself making that discovery.

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[–] shutterbug_iconium 10 years ago

1. I can't exactly give any scientific knowledge but Crusades may have created an irrational intolerance and fear of Christians. Yes, Muslims were quite tolerant of other religions.For instance, While to the rest of Europe, the idea of religious tolerance was a foreign concept, Ottoman Sultan Mehmed followed the Islamic principles on treatment of non-Muslims and gave religious freedom and rights to the Christians of Constantinople but there has always been a dubious attitude towards non-Muslims. Turkish Muslims still call non-Muslims "gavur (pronounced as gavoor)
On the other hand the movie depicts Seljuks as barbaric extremist nomadic people. This is not quite the truth. Just google "Seljuk art and architecture". The movie generalizes all Seljuks. Seljuks actually belonged to different ethnic background as in Iranian and Anatolian Seljuks.
2. Their subjects actually bowed down before Muslim rulers. Your knowledge seems to be quite limited on that.
3. Islam allows dissecting on human cadavers but do extremist mullahs know this? There are still extremist people in Islamic countries who are against organ donation? What do you expect from a Muslim who does not allow a woman to drive a car? It's not about Islam but it's the way Islam is represented by extremists.
4. Sina did autopsy in his early ages.His book The Canon of Medicine was used as a textbook in the universities of Montpellier and Leuven as late as 1650 so the way he learns from a Christian barber is just fictional. It's even stupid. At least they do justice by showing suggest how, in medieval times, England was much more backward than the Orient)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/shutterbug_iconium/

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[–] radisha 9 years ago

Although I exclude myself of meddling in posts like this. I had to impose my opinion which is supported by the dry historic facts, which you can find anywhere on the Internet today, and answer to "shutterbug_iconium".

Devsirme (literally "collecting" in Turkish), also known as the blood tax or tribute in blood, was the annual practice by which the Ottoman Empire sent military to abduct boys, sons of their Christian subjects in the villages of the Balkans. Mostly of Serbia, since they opposed them in famous Kosovo battle in 1389. The Ottoman's empire took 90 years to recover from that battle. After they abduct the babies from their mother bosom's, when boys grew to 2-3 years of age, they were then converted to Islam with the primary objective of selecting and training the ablest children for the military or civil service of the Empire, notably into the Janissaries. Christians from Northern Greece and Serbia were preferred.

About the "not quite true" Seljuk's empire, this is a historic fact - Acts of Genocide against Greek populations have been recorded ever since the Seljuk Turks first set foot in the lands of the Byzantine Empire, after the battle of Mantzikert in 1071, slaughtering the woman and children. The forced removal of Christian children from their families, their compulsory conversion to the Muslin faith under threat of death or imputation. That continued for 500 years. Massacres of the civil population on the Island of Chios, ordered by the Sultan, the atrocities and mass killings of Sultan Hamid in the 1890's, all of this can all be considered to be acts of genocide under the modern definition of the UN resolution 260 of 1948.

So that's how Islam was treating Orthodox Christians throughout the whole Ottoman's times.

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[–] shutterbug_iconium 9 years ago

So, the historical guru "radisha" talked and gave new fresh information on history. History, for that matter, is a subjective thing. If you ask Christian Greeks they will ask say this, if you ask Muslim Turks they will say that.
Bloodshed and violence has never been one-sided. We talked about the movie and in which the way Seljuks are represented. You involved Ottomans and Greeks. If there were systematic "genocide" neither the Greeks nor the Armenians wouldn't be here today so jeold on your principle of not meddling in posts like this. If you would like to "meddle" stick to what's mentioned in the post.

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[–] radisha 9 years ago

Well, you need to get back to the first op post "to hide the real truth". I am really sorry if I offended you in any way, but I think I was just answering to your historical confusion. Don't try and turn this into some personal thing, because I am assuring you it is not.

On your note about Seljuk's architecture and their beautiful contribution to the world and their historical heritage. It was bloody and genocidal! The facts are all there. Also it is not "a subjective thing. If you ask Christian Greeks they will ask say this, if you ask Muslim Turks they will say that." The things happened, and it is not tittle tattle at all! Also in 2007 Turkey offered an official apology to Greeks, and all of the nation which suffered throughout the Ottoman ruling.

I did not talk about the movie, since you started to "meddle" into things which you obviously don't have a clue about! So on the note that "stick to what's mentioned in the post." I can pretty much say the same thing about your post. But this is not, and I repeat, a personal thing, it is dry facts, my friend! So next time you decide to glorify a nation "and (jeold-whatever this word means?) on your principle of not meddling in posts like this". Do some research for their historical contribution to the world and get some information first.

Movie is just artistic form of the writers and directors, I will not go into that, since movie portray of that specific times are just side-circling the story of a man who was prepared to do anything to achieve his goals. And at that specific dark, treacherous times, that was more than impossible! But he did it anyway and miraculously succeeded.

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[–] H-a_hooman 10 years ago

-Its in the beliefs of muslims to not bend.but if you read the books of those who visited Persia in even last 200 years,you see that people actually did those things.Even if you see a documentaryabout the last shah of Iran,you will see that people are actually kissing his boots.
-Islam tolerates science but some extremists dont.when muslims conquered Persia,they burned many books and said that only the word of Allah should be read.even after islamic revolution in Iran which is 35 years ago,the new regime ordered to close all universities to do "cultural revolution" because some extremists belived that science is not pure.I even heard a mullah not a year ago that actually said that universities is why there is so much crime in the world and the countries that have more universities have more crime.

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[–] gwydno 10 years ago

The alibi for the Crusades was the prohibiton for Christians to visit their Holy places. Actually there was that special intolerance for. Christians. Muslims found people of different religions in the lands they were conquering, so they had to deal with it. But the Christian world only knew the Muslims as an invading force to be resisted.
Certainly, for a few centuries, and seen with today's perspective, Jews had a better living under Muslim rule than their brothers in Christian countries. "Better" does not equal to "good", though, in any sense, and there were countless slaughters of jews in. Muslim cities from Cordoba to Damas, not unlike the ones in many Western cities. And the worst thing is that the situation is far worse today than a thousand years ago.
As it refers to this movie in particular it is awful, shallow and vastly inferior in its depictions to the original books, where the Isfahan atmosphere is much better depicted and Ibn Sina's portrait is much closer to what might have been the reality.
I was very deceived by this movie, which in many aspects reminds me to the regrettable "Agora"; both tell the same twisted story of heroic Science vs religious fanaticism.This one is even worse from the artistic point of view, too.

Greetings

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[–] aftermik 9 years ago

Christian world only knew the Muslims as an invading force to be resisted.

you got your facts the wrong way round

muslim world only know the christian-zionist world as an invading force to be resisted.

cnn culture has totally brainwashed the minds of billions. too sad to be funny so much ignorance & prejudice.

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[–] gwydno 9 years ago

Considering that I am a Spaniard, your post seems a bit irrelevant for me. A bit deceiving, perhaps, but worthless.
greetings

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[–] aftermik 9 years ago

wait, you thought spanish media are truthful & don't belong to the same people (bankers & weapon sellers, you know those that always benefits from the crime) as 100% of media of the western world ?

fox/cnn was intended as a brand name for MASS MEDIA, & not limited to fox & cnn.

totally relevant.

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[–] TakeTheTicket 8 years ago

Maybe he's a little biased by the muslim invasion of Spain back in 711 AD

What's a lollipop man doing, knowing fu*king karate?

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[–] Oblivion14 8 years ago

He's not talking about any modern media. He's talking about the Umayyad invasion and occupation of al-Andalus (Spain) from 711 to 1492 AD.

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[–] Hasjtracker 9 years ago

This thread is stupid.

It is a movie.Nobody will buy into the propaganda it portrays,either postive or negative.Noone will believe anything,truth or lie.

This is the only real truth what religion brought us : Liars telling lies about liars telling lies.

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[–] aftermik 9 years ago

hollywood is a zionist tool.

& the zionist agenda is more than ever at islam stigmatisation.

islam brought sciences, arts & hygienic habit to europe for centuries

without them no christian cathedrales, no bathroom in our house & mathematics at school. but hush hush officially they're just savages.

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[–] radisha 9 years ago

And they all learned that from the same "Zionists", as you called them. Known as Jews!

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[–] aftermik 9 years ago

nazi were zionists, vatican are zionists, us gvt are zionists, int'l bankers are zionists

does being zionist make someone jew ?

95% of jews prior to ww2 were anti-zionist (they got killed but you know that part i believe), does that make them non-jew ?

still nowadays, hundred of thousand of jews are anti-zionist

why so many people (yeah just like you) insist on showing off their IGNORANCE ?

The IJAN views Zionism as a racist movement, and Israel as an apartheid state.[1] The charter of the organization states "[w]e are an international network of Jews who are uncompromisingly committed to struggles for human emancipation, of which the liberation of the Palestinian people and land is an indispensable part. Our commitment is to the dismantling of Israeli apartheid, the return of Palestinian refugees, and the ending of the Israeli colonization of historic Palestine."[2] It also calls for the unconditional freeing of all Palestinian prisoners in Israel. The group also opposes the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, capitalism, and Islamophobia. Prominent members of IJAN include feminist activist Selma James and
the late holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer
. It comprises groups in the United States, Canada, India, Argentina, and several European countries.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Jewish_Anti-Zionist_Network

ignorance is bliss, but only if you know you are which you don't.

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[–] radisha 9 years ago

"Islam brought sciences, arts & hygienic habit to Europe for centuries."

Okay, great. Then we should all agree, that old Greek achievements and Romans achievements of science, philosophy, arts, architecture, laws, hygiene, aqueducts, the fact that Romans first invented the concrete, which we are still using today in modern constructions... Was just a dream in which we wake up 2000 years after.

Really mate, you should reconsider your education.

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[–] nomanjohan 9 years ago

@Radisha, You are missing the whole point and there must be a lot of holes in your historic time-line perception.

Roman, Greek, Egyptian - these are 3 of the most influential civilizations of earth. No on can argue that. We are even speaking or writing a Latin dialect as we speak but like the opening credit in the movie states the Roman arts of healing were lost in dark age Europe. There were not any Dark ages in Islamic world or rather it was the golden age of Islam. What the Islamic world or civilizations did at time is revive those Greco-Roman knowledge and incorporate those with new ideas of their own. They sent scholars all over the world to gain knowledge and translate them to one common language - Arabic. Meanwhile, with no classical civilization Europeans could be dismissed as 'savages' at that time. Consequently Islamic knowledge and arts entered Europe through Spain, heralding a new era in Europe. Go find a random documentary on Europe during the dark ages and I can guarantee you that you will find an entire chapter on influence of the Islamic world. You are arguing these facts is probably because the history books you read didn't what you to know that.

This film, as absurd at times as it might be, depicts how the fictional English-man took his new-found knowledge, he gained from the Muslim scholars, to England.

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[–] dizzy-b 8 years ago

"e. Consequently Islamic knowledge and arts entered Europe through Spain, heralding a new era in Europe. Go find a random documentary on Europe during the dark ages and I can guarantee you that you will find an entire chapter on influence of the Islamic world. You are arguing these facts is probably because the history books you read didn't what you to know that."

You must be watching some very biased documentaries, Noman. It is true that Islamic culture did make some valuable contributions- but the notion that classical all semblances of classical learning and culture were lost in Europe during the so called 'Dark ages' is a myth. In fact, some historians argue that the 'Dark Ages' themselves are a myth.

There are various works and writings in Europe before the 11th century that quote from classical Greek and Roman authors. Boethius famous 'Consolation of Philosophy' was popular at the time. The Venerable Bede, mentioned above, wrote a book in the 730s in which mentioned that the earth was 'round like a ball' and wrote about the moon effecting the tides. Bede was one of most widely read authors of the Middle Ages- his works were even translated into Arabic and made thier way to the Islamic world.

If anything held back learning in Western Europe, it was probably raids and invasions from people like the Vikings, who had a habit of sacking and destroying centres of learning. Not because Europeans were inherently stupid. I would suggest you read some European works from that age. They are fascinating.

By the way, the Visigoths have been credited with inventing the Horseshoe arch, famous in Islamic architecture, and the Hagia Sohphia in Constantinople had a whopping great big Dome before any Mosque. People generally tend to use, adapt and build on that which already exists. They were not incapable because they are European or Non-Muslim, or because one race or religion is inherently smarter than the other.

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[–] nomanjohan 9 years ago

1. Muslims never hated Christians. Islam and Christianity are practically the same faith, that people changed for their agendas over the course of history. You can't be true Muslim if you don't believe in Jesus as a messenger of God. The Crusade was incited purely on political-agenda ground, just like most of the wars we see today. This movie takes place in is pre-crusade era and Islam had no beef with a Christians nor with the Jews, never had in the first place. I quote one of my fellow imbd-er, "the idea of religious tolerance was foreigner is Christian Europe" but not in Islamic orient. It's one of the fundamental of Islam to tolerate all creeds and colours.

2. Well, it's against Islamic ideology to kneel before a fellow man, let it be the ruler of the Persian empire but then again there were tyrannic leaders, who must have wanted to get as much respect out of their subjects as the pre-Islamic ones, and "Muslims" obeyed. Kneeling in front of anyone but God is considered blasphemous in Islam, period. It's not about what some Muslims did.

3. Gaining knowledge is considered as a form of prayer in Islam. You should respect your teachers and never even touch a book with your feet (because it's disrespectful) - these are the teachings of Islam. All the other *beep* carried out in the name of Islam ain't Islam.

4. No comment.

In general, Religions are just like a manuals. Religions are not violent; people are violent. Violent people bring violence, peaceful people bring peace to their religion. But above all, we know what hold faith can have on people and how easily can they be persuaded for political agenda. Knowledge and wisdom can eliminate that - religion being used as a tool to propagate wars and division among people.

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[–] dizzy-b 8 years ago

Noman Johan. The works of various Medieval European scholars and learned men also espoused the idea that Learning was somehow reverent to God. Many regarded reason as God-given tool to help humans understand the universe, which was thier perogative as rational beings.

A number of historians in the last few decades (and before) have been doing a greta job of refuting the myth than Medieval Westerners were against Science and opposed to learning....and it is a particularly pernicious myth, which blatantly ignores many of the great Medieval Western men of learning, many of whom were clerics. These included men like Richard of Wallingford, who is credited with creating the world's first fully mechanized clock in the early 1300s, Robert Grosseteste, Bishop of Lincoln, who is credited with having discovered Refraction, and many more including the eighth century monk te Venerable Bede, who wrote about the earth being round 'like a ball' 100 years or so before any Islamic scholar is known to have done so.

It is saddening that Muslims seem to be amongst those who are perpetuating the old myths today. I don't think this should be a competition, we should acknowledge the achievements and skills of one another, not try to score points.

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[–] thai3 9 years ago

The Koran says the sun goes around the Earth and sets in a muddy pool. That's about as scientific as Islam gets, it's 'golden age' consisted of knowledge lifted from conquered lands, mainly Christian. How many Nobel prizes in science have Muslims been awarded?

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