MovieChat Forums > Upstream Color (2013) Discussion > Killing God is the only way forward

Killing God is the only way forward


The Sampler is God, presented as the ambivalent creator that such a higher power would likely be.

The worm is man's infectious and twisted interpretation of God. The depression, anxiety and suffering we put ourselves through while questioning the motives, or complete absence of, a higher purpose or plan.

God sees us as pigs, though not by insult. We are simply a creation with broad characteristics. He cannot comprehend or understand our complexity, because He is not us and doesn't understand what it is to be us. Just as we can never hope to understand what it is to be a higher power.

Our world is a free range (free will) yard with limited boundaries, where He is content to observe and only compelled to intervene when those boundaries are crossed.

He is just the creator, and not the guide. But the worm promises a different story. A story with rewards for obedience and blind faith. And when you find yourself alone and disoriented when life exposes the harsh reality and loneliness of our creation, you search for meaning.

It is telling that the worm is first inflicted on the young, who have yet to form their own world view and are susceptible to leaders. Other times, the worm is forced on broken people who are searching for answers in their tragedies.

Sometimes a broken person will catch a glimpse of God as He truly is. It is in these moments that we realise His lack of actual presence and control in our lives. This is a profound realisation for the creation, and a disconcerting one for the creator. He has always known this, but it is another thing entirely to see its recognition on the face of something you previously considered to be simply a creation of broad characteristics.

It is only after killing God that we can move forward in a meaningful way. Accepting a life without the assistance or guidance of a higher power means we are left to care for each other. It is in these final scenes of the film that we see once broken characters at their happiest and most compassionate.

With the worm dead, the Thief is exposed for what he is and left empty, with no further way to cultivate and spread the worm. Meanwhile, his impressionable followers look on in shock, and even try to help search for the thing they once believed in. But it cannot be found.

In the end, all we have is each other. It doesn't matter where we came from. We're all alone in it together. And once we all realise it, we can move forward together in unity.

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happy burning in gehenna. it's sci-fi, not satanic art-house. wrong board, Alistair...

LORD is The LORD, not 'creator' etc... You're his creation AND servant, either you like it or not.

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Said the worm.

The Sampler is neither innocent or guilty. Neither above or below worship. He is simply the thing that created us.

The worm is our projection and bastardisation of that higher power, its meaning, its intention and just how much control it has over our life.

There are dozens of different worms, all proclaiming to know the truth, being sold and forced upon people by Thieves. They cannot all possibly be correct, so the likelihood is that none of them are correct.

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And a rose is a rose.

And you are an idiot for telling people who they are.

Take a chance get to know yourself a little better.

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[deleted]

You are in the wrong board; go preach at something like AIG.

Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching.

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"Killing God is the only way forward"

Heathen pig-person! How dare you?!

Those who utter such blasphemy shall burn in hellfire eternal!

Accept lord Jesus Christ into your heart now, swine! Or face the wrath!


HAIL JESUS!

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All hail jebus...they give u acess to the Internet in the big house?Try reading something but the bible,jebus is still dead and doesn't give a rats arse,about you.Free your mind from the brain washing.

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Awww... What a lovely sentiment from a religion of love and mercy. Eternal torture, how loving, how merciful, how just. NOT

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Interesting interpretation. Thank you for sharing.

Is it strange that I had an erection during that scene?

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your worm wanted a worm ))

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He is just the creator, and not the guide. But the worm promises a different story. A story with rewards for obedience and blind faith. And when you find yourself alone and disoriented when life exposes the harsh reality and loneliness of our creation, you search for meaning.

It is telling that the worm is first inflicted on the young, who have yet to form their own world view and are susceptible to leaders. Other times, the worm is forced on broken people who are searching for answers in their tragedies.

With the worm dead, the Thief is exposed for what he is and left empty, with no further way to cultivate and spread the worm. Meanwhile, his impressionable followers look on in shock, and even try to help search for the thing they once believed in. But it cannot be found.


While your interpretation may make sense you have made a serious error. There are no scenes in the movie to substantiate the claims made above. Show me where the worm provides rewards. Show me where the worm is inflicted on the young.
The scene with the pig farmer being killed is one of revenge.
The worm isn't dead as we see in one of the final scenes where it is crawling across the table. Where do you see the worm's death.

It appears that your review is merely an excuse for an anti-religion diatribe.



<Psychologically speaking homophobia is an extreme fear of two or more identical objects.>

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1. Transcribe a page from the book and add to the chain, be rewarded with a sip of water (that is proclaimed to be the most amazing thing ever tasted). That doesn't sound like indoctrination? Or an example of acting on blind faith for a reward that someone else assures you is the best thing ever?

2. Kids drinking the mixture in the beginning of the film, behaving like they are suddenly in sync with each other. Religion has a huge impact on impressionable young minds. Look at 'Jesus Camp' and similar documentaries for evidence of kids persuaded into strict fundamentalist lifestyles by adults.

3. There is no reason for the killing of the Sampler to be revenge. He removed the worm. This is God (not man's interpretation) returning a soul to its purity. The Sampler is killed as a metaphor, because the afflicted have no need for him anymore. They were indoctrinated with the worm (man's interpretation of God), but then found The Sampler to be an ambivalent creator. Their creator does not have the power of intervention that they hoped/prayed, so they recognize that the key to their happiness lies in their kindness to each other.

4. The worm is metaphorically dead. It crawls across the table, but it is not inside anybody, and therefore not inflicting its sickness on anybody. Further, the worm's habitat is shown to be dead, meaning that the worm cannot possible survive, even with the intervention of a hopeless character like The Thief.

I'm not an atheist, but I'm definitely anti-theist. And I believe that this movie is making the same point -- creator or not, bastardized interpretations of a creator are killing us, and the answer lies in human compassion.

Also, I have since read an interview with Carruth where he states that The Sampler is intended as a higher power, whether you call that 'God' or not is up to you.

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Every reader (viewer) has a different interpretation, but kudos for your interesting (informed) analysis!

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I agree with much of what you say - only, the controlling agent (the Sampler) is not so much God as capitalist society, which indoctrinates us with promises of (financial) rewards. The moral of the tale, as in Walden, is: back to nature. Start living in harmony with the world, and with creatures (animals) which are just as much citizens of this planet as human beings are. This movie is civil disobedience to the current establishment and its inhumane social system. Killing the Sampler is a metaphor for rebellion against capitalism, so we can finally be free to live according to our true human nature.

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Very interesting. That would mean that after being robbed by the church, Kris turns to capitalism to get her back on track. I don't really get that concept, please elaborate. Also, why does capitalism record the sound of falling bricks and why does capitalism throw piglets in the river. And where exactly are those financial rewards you were talking about?

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Just rewatched some the scene where the sampler collects the piglets and you might be on to something. It's heavily intercut with scenes of Kris and Jeff "laboring", pretty obvious there's a symbolism in the parallelization. The piglets might be the fruits of ones work. Capitalism steals them away from you (sometimes he'll spare you some pig blood to keep you barely alive). Shortly before that scene Kris gets the news about being infertile due to the sampler's surgical procedure. Capitalism keeps women from having children? In the end they kill him and reclaim all pigs. Brutal, but awesome statement :D
I have no clue what the flowers mean.
Also, the sampler = God theory seems really out of place when I see the sampler talking to some other guy about selling pigs.

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I think I have an idea about the flower. You are a genius everything makes sense.

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I don't know if this is what the director intended, but to me the flower was to show how all living beings are connected. When the baby pigs died, they turned the flowers blue, and the blue flowers were the ones that attracted the worms that were used to control people. So the message I got from it is that when you hurt something, you are in a sense contributing to the chaos of the world because everything is connected. It is only by seeing that you are connected to everything around you that we reach peace. This fits in with either the capitalist interpretation or the God interpretation in different ways. The man killed the pigs because he didn't value their lives the same way he valued his own. But in the end his life was taken from him also. Kind of like karma?

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I like everything you said, but...

3. There is no reason for the killing of the Sampler to be revenge. He removed the worm. This is God (not man's interpretation) returning a soul to its purity. The Sampler is killed as a metaphor, because the afflicted have no need for him anymore. They were indoctrinated with the worm (man's interpretation of God), but then found The Sampler to be an ambivalent creator. Their creator does not have the power of intervention that they hoped/prayed, so they recognize that the key to their happiness lies in their kindness to each other.

No.

Let's step back and look at Upstream Color as "Hard SF" (like Primer). Let's assume that everything is there for a reason and Carruth thought it all out with impeccable logic (because that's exactly what he did).

The way I see it, there are three possible reasons for Kris' killing of the Sampler:

(A) It's not real, it's a symbol or metaphor for something else.

I don't buy this, because then you can dismiss the entire movie as being non-literal (any scene that doesn't make sense to the viewer can be turned into allegory), and that's just being facile.

My take is that every shot in the film is either: (1) A representation of something happening in the tangible universe (that is, it's just like any normal movie where stuff happens and you can assume it's real). (2) A representation of a character's internal consciousness stream. But remember in this movie humans can be linked (the kids at the beginning, Kris and Jeff, The Sampler and the Sampled). It's also possible for humans to have pig experiences, and pigs to have human experiences.

But it's always either (1) or (2). Figuring this out is the puzzle of the movie. Carruth uses the language of film making (jump cuts, match cuts, smash cuts) to telegraph his intentions to the viewer. There is encoded meaning in nearly every shot and editing choice he makes.

(B) Kris kills the Sampler because she thinks he's the Thief (and one of the movie's themes is misplaced revenge). Or she figures it out about the piglets, and it's a mother's (justified) vengeance.

I think a lot of people reach this conclusion on the first viewing because it makes the most sense. I did too. But after reflection I ended up here:

(C) Kris makes out the Sampler for exactly what he is, and decides killing him is necessary and justifiable.

Kris and Jeff rescue the pigs, and thereby the psyches of the other members of the "Sampled" group of people, because the Sampler either doesn't know what he's doing and is ignorant and selfish about how he uses the link, or he does know and he's just evil.

In "Primer" one of the big themes is Ethics. We all agree that Aaron is grossly unethical, but Abe is no saint either. By the same token, I think one can be so blinded by the violation the Thief perpetrates, that you miss the more subtle (but perhaps greater) violation of what the Sampler is doing. Why is he even called the Sampler and his subjects the Sampled? How would you feel about having your consciousness "Sampled" in this manner?

You can go back to other movies about the abuse of telepathic power like "Scanners" or even "The Cell" where Jennifer Lopez "reverses the feed" and pulls Vincent D'Onofrio into her mind, and that's how she wins. My theory is that Kris "reverses the feed" and (with Jeff's help) figures out who the Sampler is and what he's doing (using the pig as a portal to invade her private thoughts) and kicks him out of her mind, by killing him in the real world.

You see? You don't need to add religious subtext to make sense of this movie. But I do think it's cool that the movie made you "go there". I think Carruth wanted that to happen, wanted it to roll around in your mind like that.

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Thank you for having the courage to post this. Your views echo my own almost exactly. It's creepy ;)

I am still digesting this movie but I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your words.

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Hey Not
Thankyou for your interpretation! Despite the whining I find it to be quite a cogent one which may actually induce me to watch this film again!

For the record I'm not quite sure why some folks are getting upset with your reading of it. Youre entitled to interpret a movie - or life itself - any way you wish. That, I suppose, is also a simple reading of your exegesis. It doesnt mean youre correct or incorrect; it's just a view.

Cheers!

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As anti-religion diatribes go, you gotta admit this one is pretty coherent. I get so used to reading about "idiot Christians," brainwashing, "Sky Daddy" and all the other lazy go-to insults that it's kind of refreshing to read on that took some thought. Was this what Carruth had on his mind? I don't know, but I can't rule it out.

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I have meddled with the primal forces of nature and I will atone.

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What you are articulating here is pretty close to the Gnostic view of the world:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA0UYaTNBIc

Basically, you're saying The Sampler is the Demiurge, the false creator god.

There are parallels with Gnosticism here but in Upstream Color, The Sampler is mistaken by the Sampled as the one responsible for their troubles when he wasn't really the main cause.

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if the sampler is god, why does he seem so perplexed... that he would need help-in-the-form-of ...what appears to be a livestock vet when the pair of pigs give birth. he almost seems lost as how to deal with the piglets.

I got an unearthly--almost alien--feeling.





Enjoy these words, for one day they'll be gone... All of them.

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Interesting interpretation.
Thanks for sharing.

I like your conclusion.
I also think your interpretation dubious, as an explanation of the films narrative, though.

If the Sampler (god or no god) held pigs and men to be the same/of equal worth, why would he infect the pigs to be carriers for the human 'problems'?

I also think identifying the sampler as 'God' seems a bit far fetched.

It seems apparent to me that he is mostly a caretaker and a student of nature, and that what he is most eager to know more about is the worm (why else would he make sounds/music to attract worms, or harvest worms from infected humans, to live on in pigs).
Perhaps he is simply a student of how to control nature/an archetypical scientist, employed to maintain society.
Perhaps his main motivation isn't even knowledge, but just 'running the farm'/'taking care of business'.

At any rate, he doesn't really understand what he is doing, until the woman informs him of the suffering he has sown by his actions (polluting the stream). Learning of this is a devastating accusation to him. She maintains his guilt and responsibility for what has happened, regardless of his apparent obliviousness of the consequences (shoots him). All the previous victims of the samplers experiments/irresponsible pollution band together to take care of the farm, with a greater care/love for the beings in it. The end.

So, the conclusion is more or less the same: in the end, all we have is each other, this world. We need to take care of it, as its fate is our own.

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Picked up the blu last night and it's like you picked my brain.

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I disagree that this movie has anything to do with God.
there is many images of recycling.
If you talk to hydrologist or any other ecologist.
You will know that matter cannot be created or destroyed, anything you flush down the toliet becomes upstream wateer for someone else.
No matter how much you process poop or filth or garbage, its still our upstream.

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