MovieChat Forums > De rouille et d'os (2012) Discussion > Reflecting on the characters and their a...

Reflecting on the characters and their actions:


Audiard certainly gave this film the same depth and attention as A Prophet. The grit of the characters and their unique relationship was fascinating. Unfortunately, I can't seem to grasp a few things.

- Stephanie's support of Alain's fighting. As someone that just underwent a traumatic accident, I don't see why she decided to support him in his violent and risky endeavor. Maybe there was a subtle moment I missed that explains everything, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

- Alain barely shows any traces of compassion for his child beyond very basic paternal instincts (save your drowning child). Obviously his irresponsible lifestyle makes him an extremely unlikable character, but I endured this frustration in hope of some kind of profound transformation or punishment by the film's end. After his negligence almost kills his kid, everything comes together for him--a professional MMA career and reuniting with Stephanie. Sure, he sheds a tear and breaks his hand, but THAT's his profound consequence? Or is Audiard going for the deeper sense of guilt that he will feel every time he strikes with his hand? It just seems like a weak resolution for a very messed up person, which just scrambles the message of the film for me.

I thought it was about two broken people who save each other. Things obviously got back on track for him, but nothing convinced me that he actually grew as a character.

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I think when they said every time he fights that he will feel it in his hand,...will in turn remind him of his son.

That's my opinion anyways. His son almost dying forced him to take his relationships more seriously.

You're not a writer Fink, you're a goddamn write off

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[deleted]

If Alain is meant to be her "whale", then that doesn't make sense because he is a fully fleshed out character with his own son and problems. It wouldn't make sense to have the primary focus and main character of the film (Alain) serve to simply be a by-product/manifestation of her past.

On the other hand, it would be safe to compare him to an animal because he is the same way at the end.

As far as the hand hurting when he fights, Audiard makes absolutely no effort to show us Alain learned from his actions. He hits his kid, forgets to pick him up from school, can't keep a relationship, and in the end his carelessness practically kills his son. So what's his consequence? A slightly damaged hand that is still good enough to pursue a professonial MMA career? Please. We spend the entire film watching him be an irresponsible and selfish prick and the only one that suffers in the end is his son. And he ends up with his son, his girl, and a solid career. If the point was that he has no hope, then at least let us care about him or pity him. Audiard blundered up his message bad.

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[deleted]

That is a good point. He "hardens" when he sees her during his fight. However, it still doesn't explain why she decides to support him in being the "whale". Nor does it explain what Audiard is trying to say with the ending.

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[deleted]

Perhaps Audiard believes in redemption through suffering which, after all, is a Christian tenet. Ali realizes how precious Sam is once he almost loses him. Who would not be redeemed as a result of this kind of epiphany, especially since the revelation comes on an afternoon when Ali has actually experienced all the feelings of a loving father who is capable of having a wonderful time with his son? Add to that the growing realization that he really cares for Stephanie and you have the makings of a man transformed. Why does this transformation have to resemble a Greek tragedy in its sudden evolution, especially since there are signs along the way that Ali is capable of expressing a degree of feeling for others? People who insist upon absolutist characterizations, or who feel that "villainy" must always be soundly punished, will no doubt be disappointed at the conclusion of this film. Those who realize that not every film is a passion play, and that some films reflect a life in which even flawed characters can learn to express tender feelings, can experience happiness and may even attain material rewards, will be satisfied with it.

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Ali's character change occurs when he breaks on the phone to Stephanie close to the end. When he finally recognises his human vulnerabilities and need for another person, which he has never allowed and consequently cannot empathise with his child and his needs of Ali as a father. The pain in the hand will serve to remind him of his vulnerability, not just as a boxer but as a person and how that vulnerability is connected on a literal level to his son - breaking the ice to save him - but also on the figurative one.

I don't think it's helpful to approach a character like Ali with pejoratives such as 'irresponsible' and 'selfish prick' because although that may be one way of seeing his behaviour, it is not a way with which to get inside the character.

Someone else has used the word feral and I think this is a good word to describe the connection between Ali and Stephanie. She has been schooled and educated into a subdued person, Ali never has. She is attracted to this in him because it mirrors an aspect of herself, an aspect she connects with when training the orcas. A rawness and immediacy of being. Ali provides a source of comfort and healing for her because in his feral way he is less concerned with her disability than others and is not shy of it.

Away with the manners of withered virgins

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Thanks for your response.

My whole point in using those words to describe Ali is because the film doesn't give us a chance to feel any empathy for him. Of course I'm going to dislike him.

That brief phone call is not an even remotely convincing character change. It is him crying for her to come back to him because he's scared his son almost died. What evidence is there that he changed at all as a person? None. It's just a continuation of him getting what he wants. The drowning incident is an overwhelming climax and a perfect lead in to demonstrate some profound realization, but we're left with barely a hint that the meat-head learned something. He's still selfish (which is backed up by the entire film) and after shedding a tear on the phone, gets his way again. She comes back to him, he keeps the kid, and... happily ever after. :\

I do like that they end up together because it shows they need each other and I think that's poetic, but it's framed as her oddly continuing to support his desires and deciding to forgive all his f-ups right after his biggest f-up. Maybe when I give it another watch, it might hit me differently, but I was waiting the entire film for something to get through to him. And even the drowning barely seemed to phase him.

As for their relationship, I completely agree. Their unique compatibility speaks volumes and remains the strongest point of the film. But there is a point in the film where I realized there is nothing positive she brings into his life other than bringing out his empathy and care for her. He barely lets her into his life and when he does, she encourages his street brawling. Again, scrambling the message for me.

By the way, my distaste for his character in no way detracts from my admiration for Matthias Schoenaerts's performance. Both leads were terrific.

Also, I want to add that after some more reflection, I came to realize two things:

The drowning incident symbolized-
1). His experience in fighting ultimately saved his son. This has extra significance if we remove the guilt from him and regard it as a 100% accident.

2). His need for Stephanie. Once he runs away from her, his problems amplify. Once he embraces others, his problems dissipate. If this is his "evolution" over his emotional detachment issues, I do wish it was conveyed more clearly. But in Audiard's defense, his films are extraordinarily subtle and layered, which is why I'm giving Rust and Bone another chance.


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My whole point in using those words to describe Ali is because the film doesn't give us a chance to feel any empathy for him. Of course I'm going to dislike him.
I didn't like Ali either but I did feel for him, so I think the film allows a range of responses, yours versus mine for example, towards his character, including empathy.

The point of Ali crying is that he breaks from being frozen and stuck in a fight-flight/survival mode and he reaches out for her help. That is the moment of change, not the crying itself. EDIT: The moment of change is the flow of feeling in him again that melts the survival mentality and detached man hence he reaches out for help, which is a natural rather than frozen response.
there is nothing positive she brings into his life other than bringing out his empathy and care for her. He barely lets her into his life and when he does, she encourages his street brawling
You don't think 'bringing out empathy and care' in another person is a positive quality? Really? Ali barely cares for himself and we see he has little capacity to care for another. She lets him close to care for her and that is what contributes towards the crunch 'phone call at the end. Also the street brawling is good for Ali even if it hurts him physically and is illegal. It provides him with a constructive means of channelling his anger and using his body. I don't like the fighting myself but that's irrelevant. She does as she is drawn to wildness and raw feeling such as is on display in such fights.
Once he runs away from her, his problems amplify. Once he embraces others, his problems dissipate. If this is his "evolution" over his emotional detachment issues, I do wish it was conveyed more clearly.
So you do get it! The fact that you get it, as do I and others means it is communicated clearly. It is communicated symbolically most of the time and that is more poetic and respectful of the audience for it asks that the viewer bring themself to the film and not be mere receivers of it and that allows for a range of responses/experiences.
Away with the manners of withered virgins

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Thanks for great insights from you both!

I agree more with Poppy's perspective, though, and I just want to point out that it was also weakness and fragility that first drove Stephanie to become increasingly attached to Ali. (I believe we all agree on the unique compatibility between the two, and how Ali can make Steph less self-conscious and embarrassed.)

One scene made especial contrast between Steph's weakness and Ali's self-reliance. It was at the cafe the morning after Ali took a woman home from the nightclub right under Steph's eyes. That scene revealed Steph to be wholly committed to this relationship, (and is fragile in this regard as she doesn't know any other man who can make her feel normal as Ali can.) Meanwhile, Ali was shown to be extremely insensitive towards this whole issue, (and in this sense was very strong and self-reliant, since even without Steph he is able to get as many f-buddies as he damn well pleases.) As you can see, the scene also equated being fragile to being more committed to a serious relationship.

I agree that the drowning event doesn't fundamentally change Ali. All it did was getting Ali to experience the feeling of fear, uncertainty, and helplessness. In this fragile state even he finds the need for the solace of a serious relationship, and so finally committed himself to Steph. (Note also how Steph is composed, calm, and almost magnanimous during the phone call, being now the "strong" one offering Ali a stout shoulder to cry on.)

If I understand you right DjMethod, I think your main complaint is that Ali does not deserve the perfect ending he got without becoming a better man. However nothing in the ending was outright incredulous, and you might be giving Ali too little credit. He was always shown to be a very competent fighter. His sister's family was already shown to slowly start forgiving him. Sam was always shown to be very affectionate of him. He, as you said, has always possessed benevolent parental instincts, if not careful attention. He was shown to be sorry for causing his sister to lose her job, (though he did not believe her accusations justified, since, to a guy like him who does things by instinct, how could he have known what he might have caused?) Add to all this his newfound commitment to a serious relationship with Steph, and a perfect ending does not seem that far-fetched, even if he did not change at all otherwise.

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You don't think 'bringing out empathy and care' in another person is a positive quality?


I do. I said it was the exception.

Like PTA's The Master, this film is cryptic, which is what fundamentally motivated me to pursue answers. You have done a great job presenting your stance, not only to defend your take on it, but to directly address and shed light on what I found frustrating in the first place. Phantomalpha, thank you for your thoughts as well. Here is what I have concluded:


Ali is a man that cannot care for or connect with others. He is not a good person, but he has good in him. The film's narrative is lined with a series of careless actions that demonstrate emotional detachment, which lead to the poignant climax of his pivotal "leg-losing" moment in his own life. It is only then that he embraces others and is able to connect. We are told this in a direct way, an indirect way, and an abstract way.

- Audiard delivers his direct message by displaying the near-tragic event's immediate impact on Ali. His breakdown on the phone shows life finally finding a path to his heart. This directly demonstrates that he is lowering his barriers.

- His injured hand tells us that that channel to his heart will remain open whenever he feels pain. This indirectly demonstrates that although he may not have "evolved" into a good person, he will always be able to access that wisdom inside of him every time he strikes. Since fighting is now his profession, this can be considered a long-term resolution to his character, because he is now prevented from forgetting the incident and regressing to his previous state.

- The abstract message lies in the contrast between his negativity and sadness throughout the film vs. the abrupt positivity and glow immediately following the drowning incident. From this, we are forced to assume that everything is different because of the accident. This draws a growth bridge between emotional detachment and emotional attachment. Thus, Audiard finds it unnecessary to display the specifics of the character growth on-screen if he can already show the product.

It is this last choice that I found particularly unsettling on my first viewing, because in skipping the growth stage in an effort to show us the product, one can just as easily assume that Ali imposed their relationship to fulfill his own needs and narcissistically continue to pursue his own lifestyle and interests. However, naturally, vagueness leaves a film vulnerable to interpretation. I'm all for subtleties and nuanced performances, but I do wish Ali's spiritual resolution wasn't so rushed and understated. Ending on logical assumptions works better when the puzzle pieces are left to construct an ending (i.e. Shame or Inception), not the path to the ending.

In sum, Ali and Stephanie could not truly be compatible until he underwent his own "whale accident," which was the missing element inside both of them when they first met as two naive individuals.

Of course, this is only half the film. It does not even touch the surface of their actual relationship (though phantomalpha opened it up nicely), which I believe to be the true backbone of the story.

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Ali is a man that cannot care for or connect with others. He is not a good person, but he has good in him. The film's narrative is lined with a series of careless actions that demonstrate emotional detachment, which lead to the poignant climax of his pivotal "leg-losing" moment in his own life. It is only then that he embraces others and is able to connect. We are told this in a direct way, an indirect way, and an abstract way.
Yes! I agree with every word of this and appreciate you likening the near drowning of his son to Stephanie's loss of leg.
The abstract message lies in the contrast between his negativity and sadness throughout the film vs. the abrupt positivity and glow immediately following the drowning incident. From this, we are forced to assume that everything is different because of the accident. This draws a growth bridge between emotional detachment and emotional attachment. Thus, Audiard finds it unnecessary to display the specifics of the character growth on-screen if he can already show the product.
I'd have to think about this for a while because I haven't approached the film in this way before. My immediate thoughts are that Ali's character is approached symbolically because his inner world is more difficult to communicate; his character would not have words to describe himself and his experiences. It would be acted out more. Stephanie by contrast has a level of verbal articulacy and the language of her whale training with which to communicate. However, my sense of Ali was a visceral one; most of how I felt and still feel about the character comes from my gut and I found him to be emotionally primitive and atavistic.
In sum, Ali and Stephanie could not truly be compatible until he underwent his own "whale accident," which was the missing element inside both of them when they first met as two naive individuals.
This reminds me of another poster on this board who suggested that the tattooes Stephanie has etched upon her legs represent the change in her from a 'gauche' person to one who is 'adroit' as a result of her growth post-accident. The same symbolic words could apply to Ali after the near drowning accident.

One final thing: I felt the son's accident to be too much when I saw the film as in 'oh another melodrama'. I was quite impatient with it. But of course it was the way to show Ali's shift and resolve something within himself and his relationship with Stephanie. Their relationship was the most interesting aspect of the film. I've wondered what the rust in the film's title referred to for a while. Perhaps it is the rust around Ali's heart that prevents it from working properly until lubricated by tears that break his detachment from others and himself ..?
Away with the manners of withered virgins

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I feel like he was scared to lose someone he loved, which is why he probably wouldn't let himself get close to his son, or to Stephanie. It took almost losing his son for him to be honest about his feelings, rather than running away from them. Just as the broken bones in the hand will hurt if faced with trauma again, so too will the heart, but this time he is ready for it. He won't run from it, he will face it. So I feel that in the end he grew a great deal. Beautiful film.

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she embraced his fighting because fighting to him was the reflection of whale training to her. He loved fighting, it was risky. She loved whale traing and we saw how risky that was. This is life.

The movie showed his transformation throughout. Sorry he is not an overly lovey dovey melo dramatic sap. Most people aren't. The movie showed sufficiently, for me, that he loved his kid he was just profoundly irresponsible. When his kid almost died it made him appreciate the girl he loved(though hadn't admitted it yet) and his son on a level he never had. I don't think this theme is very far fetched and I think it was well executed.

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Stephanie's support of Alain's fighting. As someone that just underwent a traumatic accident, I don't see why she decided to support him in his violent and risky endeavor. Maybe there was a subtle moment I missed that explains everything, but it just doesn't make sense to me.


I felt Stephanie admired Alain's brute physicality as a vicarious obsession. Stephanie had lost her physical strength, therefore attached herself to Alain who used his alpha male personality to his own benefit.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not.

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