My definition of a woman.


A human born with XX chromosomes who doesn't transition to become female or consider themselves transgender.

Side not: notice how we always have to defend what a woman is, but never question what a man is?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVcLIfSC4OE

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You know how I feel about musicals.

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If you want an honest answer, I think that it isn't questioned as much because women don't really care too much about trans men because we aren't threatened by the idea that we might accidently be attracted to them.

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Are you based in the US?

In the UK, a lot of the anti-trans rhetoric has come from self-identifying 'feminists' or 'TERFS' (i.e. women).

However, I do agree with you that the many men who demonise trans women are likely 'threatened' because of their sexuality (although I would say that one doesn't find as many men campaigning against trans rights in the UK as one finds 'militant' feminists doing the same).

And, FWIW, I'm very pro-trans rights and personally relaxed about their identities (although I do have some time for some gender-critical feminists who are concerned as to how trans identification affects women's professional sports, and safeguarding issues in prisons and changing rooms).

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I'm not American.

I agree that there are a lot of women who are anti-trans, but I feel that a lot of that is directed towards transwomen and not transmen.

I appreciate your stance, but I have found here that there is no point in discussing trans anything because it's a powder keg of nastiness. But samoanjoes wanted to know why no one questions what a man is. They do. There wouldn't be expressions like "be a man" or "man up" if we didn't. But I would like someone to explain to me exactly what that means, and is there only one way to be a man?

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You raise some good points.

Hopefully you appreciate that I come in good faith to these discussions, just as I believe you do.

Your final question is particularly interesting. I am a cishet man, but according to various tests, I would also be regarded as 'feminine'. My values, lifestyle and inclinations, and even some of my tastes, would be regarded as 'feminine' or more characteristic of a gay, rather than straight man, but despite having questioned my sexuality in the past, I am now confident to call myself a cishet man, albeit one who possibly doesn't adhere to stereotypical 'masculinity' (not that I am 'camp' or 'feminine').

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My final question is my issue with the question what is a woman? I would like to think that I am more than just my sex organs. I don't think that there is just one way for a person to act regardless of what they have between their legs. So if how we act doesn't define us, what does?

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It's difficult for me, because although I do support trans rights, I also abhor the idea that there is a 'female brain' and a 'male brain', and so, for me, 'gender' does come down to the *sex*-based differences between people with XY and XX chromosomes.

Ironically, however, it's often gender-critical 'feminists' or so-called 'TERFs' who I find are the ones most keen to tell us that women and men are innately different *beyond* our sex organs.

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I like to think of it like this: a dog can be born without a tail and the ability to bark, but it's still a dog. I don't see how humans can be different. A man can be born without a penis, but cromosome-wise, he's still a man.

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I think it's a little bit more than an attraction thing. You already know my stance on this, but the reason I don't believe trans women are real women, because you can't eliminate biology and claim something as new. I don't base this opinion on my attraction, I only base this from a biological standpoint. I mean, if we don't use biology, then anyone who has an attraction to a trans woman could also have an attraction to a guy who likes dressing up as a girl who isn't trans.

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I don't think that a trans woman is a cis woman. I don't know any trans people who do claim that they are the same thing. There may be those out there who do feel that way, but I haven't met them. The trans people I know refer to themselves as trans. If someone who is born a man wants to live their life as what society deems is how a woman should live, I don't care.

Biologically there is a difference. No argument here. But when you ask the question what is a man or a woman there is a lot more to it than just a penis or a vagina. There are different roles in society. To ignore that is just ignorant.

So you tell me, what makes a man a man other than having a penis. What does it mean to teach a boy to be a man? What does "man up" mean? What does that's not manly mean? Or adversely what makes a manly man? If it's just a penis then every person with a penis is a manly man.

Outside of biology I can't define what is a woman. I know many different people, many are cis, straight women. I know a few trans women. They are all unique and they all have something different to offer the world. Some are mothers, some are not. I've been told that I will never really experience what it like to be a woman because my womb was inhospitable and I miscarried more than once and never had a child. If one is not interested in their looks, wearing make-up, and being desirable to men are they women or not? There are people who opinions on that too. So please don't try to tell me that being a woman is just having a vagina. That's just biology.

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But when you ask the question what is a man or a woman there is a lot more to it than just a penis or a vagina.

Of course. As I stated in the other post, not having a penis doesn't make someone a woman. If he was born with XY chromosomes and didn't have a penis, he's still male.

There are different roles in society.

I don't think this is gender. I consider this like attributes. It's the same way as a woman who likes sports, beer and dressing with a leather jacket and jeans. She may consider herself "one of the guys". But I think it stops at that one word: role. You could almost say it's a stereotype.

So please don't try to tell me that being a woman is just having a vagina. That's just biology.

I'm not saying that at all.

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You have not defined what a "woman" is. You are defining what biological sex is. If you can't see that there are gender roles assigned to us because of our biology I don't know what to tell you. Stereotypes are different from gender roles.

Someone who is a female who likes sports and calls herself one of the guys is not even remotely in the same space as someone who is trans. I get that you don't understand it. I can't really understand it as it's something I've not experienced. Maybe talk to an actual trans person.

Ugh. This wasn't supposed to be anything to convince anyone of trans anything because I know you've made up your mind and I know that there is nothing I say that will ever make you change your mind. We don't see trans people the same way.

The point was you said that no one asks what is a man. I countered that.

I will also say that no one has actually really explained what a man or a woman actually is outside of chromosomes. What makes you a man? If it's just chromosomes, then why do people tell men to be a man. What does that mean?

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you can't see that there are gender roles assigned to us because of our biology I don't know what to tell you.

Of course there are gender roles, but those don't play into whether we are male or female. A man who wears a dress, stays at home to take care of the kids and likes ironing, doesn't make him female. We assume men likes trucks and girls like Barbie, but that is separate argument. There is a reason why if a corpse is found, scientists are able to determine if they were male or female through DNA and other testing. They don't determine it through gender roles.

If it's just chromosomes, then why do people tell men to be a man. What does that mean?

That has to do with what you are saying: gender roles. They expect guys to be macho. Men aren't supposed to cry.  (That's not me saying this, it's society). There is a reason why only biological men get prostate cancer and transmen can't. There is a reason why biological women get cervical cancer and transwomen can't.

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And this is why its called transGENDER

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I'm aware. But trans people say they were born in the wrong body. If they really thought they were a different gender, they wouldn't claim to be born in the wrong body, they would just dress up as what they feel they are. Male and female is based on biology which can't be changed. How can they transition to something they claim they always are but are just born differently? We don't hear disabled people claim they were born in the wrong body and then go around saying they're able-bodied and want to be treated as such.

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You seriously don't treat disabled people the same as able-bodied people? Well that explains a lot. Do you also try to argue with someone with dementia?

Again, I'm not going around this merry-go-round with you again. We've been here and it goes no where. You still haven't really defined what a man or a woman is either. So I'm done here.

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You seriously don't treat disabled people the same as able-bodied people?

Of course I do and I'm not sure how you think I was saying the opposite. I'm saying that if a disabled person says they're able-bodied, I'm not going to tell them that they are in fact able-bodied. I wouldn't tell someone who is able-bodied who thinks they're disabled that they really are disabled. That would be like telling someone who is anorexic that they are overweight because their mind is telling them they are. It's irresponsible to do that.

You still haven't really defined what a man or a woman is either.

XX chromosomes. Anything else after is semantics. If a dog is on a farm full of horses and the dog starts galloping like a horse and eating hay, is it now a horse? Of course not. We don't question that it's a dog so how would a man who has succumbed to gender roles any different? A dog can be born without a tail, with only two legs and the inability to bark, but it's still a dog. Literally everyone knows what a dog is but when the same thing happens to a human, we suddenly scratch our heads.

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I trust you would never question the following person's gender:

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0680983/

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Bafta awards: best leading ACTRESS ;)

But you’re right, I wouldn’t …

Imagine saying: “hmm, I would smash her… oh fuck, now I’m gay!?”

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Nothing wrong with being gay (not that I'm personally attracted to Elliot, either before or after their full transition).

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I guess you didn’t understand my reply …

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I'm fairly certain I did.

I'm simply seizing upon your last line. If you're hypothetically attracted to Elliot Page, who cares if it makes you gay?

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No, you didn't. Because I'm not attracted to men, so I'm not gay.

There's nothing wrong with being gay, but I'm not. Get it?

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Female.

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Women are born with XX chromosomes and female sex organs. Anyone else claiming to be a woman is just pretending. I don't care what fantasy they want to live, but if they expect me to play along with their delusional game by referring to them as something they are not, they are going to be disappointed. A guy in a dress, even if he's on female hormones and has had his genitals cut off, is not a woman. He is only a "woman"--an actor playing a character.

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It's like buying milk from a goat that thinks it's a cow. We all know how the milk will taste.

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A man is NOT a Republican. Republicans are subhuman creatures from the pit of hell born without a brain or soul.

Oh, I was just kidding .... ha, ha.

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The fact that nobody is asking 'what is a man' tells us why the question 'what is a woman' is so important.

Only women and women's rights are being threatened by this movement. Men's rights are not threatened by the presence of biological women. Female criminals are not going to 'transition' in order to get in to a men's prison.

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It's almost like they're acknowledging there is a biological difference but don't want to admit it. I heard a stat that said 80% of all trans people are male-to-female.

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Total social contagion. Seems to be an epidemic amongst teenage girls, they're so obsessed with 'the patriarchy' they want some of the action.

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