How was Jessica able to escape mama where as Lilly was so fascinated and fixated with her? Does anyone have any theories as to what makes there situations different? I though Lilly would eventually turn away from mama. Mama did piss me off at the end she is the definition of a "basic bitch"
shareLilly had very little memory of her life before the cabin in the forest with a scary ghost as a guardian, Victoria was older, she had memories of her life, her daddy, her uncle even their little dachshund. To Lilly, that was all she knew and loved. It was a sad ending too because Lilly had a slight breakthrough with Annabell.
shareLilly had very little memory of her life before the cabin in the forest with a scary ghost as a guardian, Victoria was older, she had memories of her life, her daddy, her uncle even their little dachshund. To Lilly, that was all she knew and loved. It was a sad ending too because Lilly had a slight breakthrough with Annabell.
Lilly had very little memory of her life before the cabin in the forest with a scary ghost as a guardian, Victoria was older, she had memories of her life, her daddy, her uncle even their little dachshund. To Lilly, that was all she knew and loved. It was a sad ending too because Lilly had a slight breakthrough with Annabell.
I thought it was well established that Lilly probably died in the woods and was not really alive when found. This is illustrated in many ways but quite clearly in the title sequence where we see pictograms drawn by the girls, one clearly showing the smaller child throwing up blood, the older sister looking sad, and then dogs or coyotes biting at the body of the child. She also constantly oozes black stuff out of her mouth and eats bugs, and she reacts with fascination when she feels warm breath on her skin -- then she tries it herself, like the idea of inner warmth is foreign to her.
Most clearly, in the end, her body dissolves into moths like Mama's, which would indicate she was a ghost, not a living girl. Otherwise, she would have fallen into the water. This makes it very clear that she and Mama are made of the same "stuff": that is, ghostly matter.
So I think it's quite clear she was a ghost and that is why she had to go with Mama. It was too late for her.
No, Lily is not a ghost. She is a living human being who was beginning to respond to Annabel but at the end, she chose to go with Mama. There were a number of paranormal events in the movie-you can't just pick one out and say that it is evidence of something like Lily being a ghost when there is so much evidence that she was a real live human being.
http://thinkingoutloud-descartes.blogspot.com/
tamra writes: "I thought it was well established..."
Well stated.
"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy
I don't think the idea of Lilly as a ghost was well established or even makes sense. I would agree if only Victoria saw her, but everyone did. Luke, Annabel, Dr. Dreyfuss and Aunt Jean all saw her. So did the trackers when they found the cabin. Also, everyone talks about her and to her as much as they do Victoria.
shareI actually really like this theory. I've analysed and discussed this movie with others and I'm surprised the "Lilly was a ghost all along" theory was never brought up. I always assumed they wanted to bring a sort of fairytale feel to the movie and therefore decided to end it the way they did. Though I personally think it's not that far-fetched to think Lily was a ghost of some sorts. It would make sense that if she died back in the cabin, she'd stay close to Victoria because it was basically the only thing she knew. And the fact that other people have seen her doesn't matter. In the end almost everyone got to see Mama, she just decided to stay hidden for some time. It would answer a lot of question about Lily I still had left at the end of the movie.
EDIT: There's also a post on here somewhere that mentions that in one of the drawings during the opening credits..you see Lilly vomiting blood or something..so perhaps she did indeed die.
Interesting arguments. I'll have to check it out again. It seemed that the drawings showed that Lilly either fell from the tree or fell while trying to fly like the moths (Mama?), then vomited blood, while Victoria looked on sadly. After that, Victoria started moving about on all fours like Lilly.
shareI think the vomit blood picture is supposed to be Lilly eating rat while Victoria looks in disgust. The following drawing after that is a zoom on Victoria's frowny face.
...a little fantastic, and fleeting, and out of reach.
Perhaps Lilly had been vomiting, as many kids do when sick. That drawing showed Mama sad, but then later ones depicted them all together and happy.
Also, Lily had blood work and multiple tests done at the hospital. There is no way a "ghost" could pull that off in most movie universes. : P
"Don't get chumpatized!" - The King of Kong: A Fistful of Quarters (2007)
How could she be a ghost and nobody noticed it? no doctors, no one?
I think all her behavior can be explained by having grown up without any human contact except for her siser for all her early years. She remeber nothing of her "normal" life before and Mama really is her mother in a way.
cinecephale writes: "How could she be a ghost and nobody noticed it?"
Well, the film is a modern fairytale...
"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy
I thought it was well established that Lilly probably died in the woods and was not really alive when found.That's right, the court gave custody of the ghost and her surviving sister to her uncle, on the recommendation of the ghost's and her sister's psychiatrist. Yes I guess even ghosts need caring in this modern fairy tale.
by spookyrat1 » Tue Apr 22 2014 07:29:22
That's right, the court gave custody of the ghost and her surviving sister to her uncle, on the recommendation of the ghost's and her sister's psychiatrist. Yes I guess even ghosts need caring in this modern fairy tale.
BTW someone must have forgotten to tell Jeffrey's ghost, who as well as Victoria, tells Luke he needs to save Lilly's "ghost" from Mama.
Wtf? ... Are there "ghost facts" that this movie got wrong that you would like to share with sane people?LOL! Besides ranting what are you actually asking, assuming you are (a) sane (as you infer you are) and (b) have actually read this thread comprehensively. share
by tamra » Thu Jan 2 2014 19:58:33
IMDb member since November 2001
I thought it was well established that Lilly probably died in the woods and was not really alive when found. This is illustrated in many ways but quite clearly in the title sequence where we see pictograms drawn by the girls, one clearly showing the smaller child throwing up blood, the older sister looking sad, and then dogs or coyotes biting at the body of the child. She also constantly oozes black stuff out of her mouth and eats bugs, and she reacts with fascination when she feels warm breath on her skin -- then she tries it herself, like the idea of inner warmth is foreign to her.
Most clearly, in the end, her body dissolves into moths like Mama's, which would indicate she was a ghost, not a living girl. Otherwise, she would have fallen into the water. This makes it very clear that she and Mama are made of the same "stuff": that is, ghostly matter.
So I think it's quite clear she was a ghost and that is why she had to go with Mama. It was too late for her.
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I think the vomit blood picture is supposed to be Lilly eating rat while Victoria looks in disgust. The following drawing after that is a zoom on Victoria's frowny face.
But I like your theory too, adds a layer of depth to the movie.
...a little fantastic, and fleeting, and out of reach.
I just saw this film in the last hour and I was thinking about that possibility also and reading your thoughts hear I do believe it to be true in the story. It sort of makes it that much creepier and sadder in the end.
share"She also constantly oozes black stuff out of her mouth and eats bugs, and she reacts with fascination when she feels warm breath on her skin -- then she tries it herself, like the idea of inner warmth is foreign to her."
I don't believe this is evidence that Lily is a ghost. She's a very young child who puts everything in her mouth, including moths. They were part of her Mama, right? And she was starving, right? The black stuff around her mouth could be from what she's been eating although the rest of her was filthy so it could also be mud. She lived like an animal for her formative years.
And Annabel's warm breath probably shocked her because she was used to Mama's cold breath!
At the end she dissolved into moths because that's when she died and went with Mama. That's when she became a ghost - not before.
mnbush writes: "At the end she dissolved into moths..."
No.
Lilly does not do this.
There is one specific moth or butterfly that lands on Victoria's hand, and that butterfly is recognized as Lilly by Victoria.
"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy
Actually we see moths on the ground but then we see her eating what appears to be a brownie. I think they both are suffering from severe brain damage from being neglected out there for so long without proper nutrition. Therefore they are hallucinating...
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berhardhofacker writes: "Therefore they are hallucinating..."
How does this explain what happens to Lucas?
He didn't hallucinate his encounter with Mama at the top of the stairs, did he?
"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy
I love this discussion. Both sides are right! The truth in my opinion is that Lily was both dead and alive. She was the Schrödinger's cat of this story, she could end up being either dead or alive, depending on the actions of others. This dichotomy comes to its dramatic conclusion in the final moments of the final scene where it is decided whether Lily shall - tadaa - remain alive, or remain dead.
I think the point the creators were making was maybe that Lily was dead inside, dead in the sense that her 5-year trauma at such a young age had rendered her irrepairable. This is the harsh fact. Mentally she could not be saved, and the creators are telling us that this tragic reality is more powerful, more relevant, than the need to establish whether she was physically alive or a ghost.
The take-home-message: don't traumatise children!
"I am like Cryptonite to men. Cryptonite dipped in cellulite!"
"I think the point the creators were making was maybe that Lily was dead inside..."
Lilly was not "Dead Inside."
She loved Mama and she loved her sister.
The dichotomy in this film is between Mama's world and our world -- the spiritual realm and the physical realm.
Celebrating 100 Years of DADA * Feb. 5, 1916 * Zurich
Who is Jessica? The other little girl was Victoria. The only Jessica is the actress who plays Annabel.
shareJESSICA?
What character was called Jessica?
Everyone's repsonse is about Lilly and her older sister VICTORIA, and you people argue about who's right, but nobody states who was that Jessica character...
Please excuse my terrible redaction, english is not my native language.
BulmaPunkRocker writes: "What character was called Jessica?"
If you read the opening post, "Jessica" is obviously a SNAFU for Victoria.
Victoria is the girl who is "able to escape Mama." And note that this is clearly wrong as well: Victoria does not escape, but Mama allows her to remain with her new mother, Annabel.
Mama can do whatever she wants -- she incapacitates both Annabel and Lucas. (Even the father with the gun is no match for Mama!)
It is only love that plays a part in the exchange of the girls. Annabel loves the girls and won't let go of the belt on Victoria's robe: obviously a symbolic umbilical cord. Victoria loves Annabel and wants to stay with her. Lilly loves Mama and wants to go with her, and Mama so loves both girls, that she gives to both her children exactly what they want.
"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy
NeedysBoy, you are reading waaaay too much into this movie. An umbilical cord???
Relax...Have some popcorn, and just enjoy a movie instead of beating everyone here over the head with Jung, symbolism, and your over-inflated ego.
whippetchick writes: "An umbilical cord???"
Yes.
A symbolic umbilical cord.
When does it first appear -- in the bathroom (probably symbolic as well) when Victoria is trying to open that jar (you don't want to know the symbolism here). This is when Annabel and Victoria really begin to connect. When Victoria tries to leave the bathroom, Annabel grabs hold of Victoria's bathrobe belt. This is when Annabel begins to care for Victoria, she asks Victoria what's wrong. Annabel begins to feel motherly at this point, hence the belt symbolizes the umbilical cord and the connection between Annabel and Victoria.
"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy
NeedysBoy,
Why do you go into such detail about symbolism on some threads, then on others, you remind them that "this is just a movie"?
And why would someone make a movie with so much "symbolism" when it is lost to those of us without your extensive education and brain power? (That was sarcasm, by the way. Wonder what THAT symbolizes?)
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Do Not Read> You little rebel! I like you!
whippetchick writes: "...you remind them that 'this is just a movie'?"
I don't recall doing this. I think I've been pretty consistent when insisting that film is art; although I do occasionally post lighter replies.
In art, everything should have meaning; and in a well made film, I believe everything should have meaning too, i.e. everything thing has a literal meaning and an allegorical or symbolic meaning. This includes lighting, sets, decor, dialog, camera angles, music, and title cards.
"Wonder what THAT symbolizes?"
I would say that symbolizes the end of this exchange.
"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy
I agree. The ending made my hatred for Mama go through the roof.
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Lilly was barely a baby when she was 'parented' by Mama, where as Jessica still had spent plenty of years with her real parents and was her more of her own person because of it
We crash into each other, just so we can feel something.
Jessica? You mean Victoria, the older sister?
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