An eye for an eye, would leave the world blind.
thank you, Captain Cliché
How can you not see why revenge is not a building block for a civilized society? revenge in turn always breeds revenge, never ending cycle, never ending war and never ending pain until someone ultimately breaks the cycle.
there is no "cycle," show me the children or other family member of an executed murderer who has ever committed some kind of revenge on the victim's family or the judge of the case, something like that, and I'm not talking about committing crimes in general (I will grant you that being a criminal can 'run in families,' in a sense, meaning it becomes a way of life), I mean, targeted, specific crimes against people personally involved in the execution of their loved ones
People like you are a part of the problem.
people who refuse to deal with the reality of crime (and harshly, at that) are the problem
...and the criminals, of course, they are the ultimate problem
What are we to do about all the innocent people who have been executed?
please provide a list of the people, along with irrefutable evidentiary proof of their "innocence" (as in, not just 'not guilty,' as in "did not commit the murder")
your system is heavily flawed, everyone knows this, yet youre willing to sacrifice innocent people in order to further your crusade.
every system is flawed because it is administered by imperfect human beings, but I'll take ours over every other system in the world...take two I've become quite familiar with in the last few years, the Netherlands' (via Aruba) and Italy's, you want to talk "flawed," take a gander at those...and again, I challenge you to provide a list; now, if you want a list of guilty people who went free, I can give you a list off the top of my head, which do you find more flawed? which is more dangerous for the rest of society?
Barbarism is alive and well in America.
we call it justice, but if you want to call it that, that's your right
I can only feel pitty for you, you were raised diffrently over there - murder and rape and horrifying crimes exist in my country(Sweden) yet no one would call for the death of the perp., its simly not done and this from a country with real true roots in barbarism.
and that's your (and other Scandinavian countries, as well) problem, because of your country's history, you're trying to go so far in the other direction, that you've totally lost your way; it's okay, no one would ever confuse current Scandinavians with Vikings, you don't have to be so wimpy anymore, there is a happy medium between what you were and what you've become; a question, if I may ask...what is told to the families of murder victims and rape victims to sooth their normal, expected and acceptable (at least here) feelings of rage and desire to 'hurt' the perpetrator as badly as they were hurt? or are people there just so brainwashed and beaten down (or even pressured?) that they accept such criminal violations and expect no harsh punishment for the perpetrators?
Can you honestly tell me (and I realize you'll have to speculate a little here) that the people of Norway will be satisfied with the measly amount of time Anders Behring Breivik will do in jail, even if convicted on all charges and sentenced to the maximum amount of time running consecutively? He could be out in his 60s, still plenty of time to kill again.
Your nation is out of control, i will agree to that, but dont for a minute think that you yourself are not part of the bigger problem, because the way you argue for revenge and "clown justice" to be passed by victims and not by JUST hands, well it beyond me how you can be so blind.
I am not blind, I believe that changing the system to allowing the families to come up with the most painful way to execute the murderer of their loved one actually
would work toward deterrence, I believe that the painless, peaceful 'putting down' of murderers has taken the fear out of it for many, kind of like the way the development of drugs extending the (seemingly healthy) lives of HIV and AIDS patients has led many young people to stop using condoms as religiously and to not really fear the disease as much as they did, say, 15-20 years ago, because they just figure they'll take some pills and be fine.
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psilome
13 years ago
and that's your (and other Scandinavian countries, as well) problem, because of your country's history, you're trying to go so far in the other direction, that you've totally lost your way; it's okay, no one would ever confuse current Scandinavians with Vikings, you don't have to be so wimpy anymore, there is a happy medium between what you were and what you've become
Its called growing as a nation and evolving from basic "reactive" justice, as in the first instinctive reaction isnt necessarily the right way to move forward because we all have to co-exist in society - todays society isnt what it was 1000 years ago for us Scandinavians, I think you will come to learn just a thing or two in the next 800 years, dont you.
Your own nation is still so very young, to Europe looking in we see the brashness, overcondifence and cockyness leading towards "a fall" or simply heading for reformation.
Being as we were raised so diffrently, I must seem as "alien" in my views as some of your views do to me. Your young nation being a "superpower" having made leaps and bounds(not necessarily grown in to them at a rate older nations have)in population, science etc. trying to police the world at the same time as trying to build a lasting nation for thousands of years to come, trying to manage such a huge population and all the issues that come there with - im not saying im incapable of understanding why you would seek this type of a "final" solution.
Your country is overworked, stretched thin and putting on a good face.
My instinctual rection is never revenge, couldnt imagine living my life that way, if thats your instinctual reaction maybe you need to consider thats your neighbours too and so on - core issue of your nation, it wont last, cant last somethings got to give eventually.
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ih8tt
13 years ago
Its called growing as a nation and evolving from basic "reactive" justice, as in the first instinctive reaction isnt necessarily the right way to move forward because we all have to co-exist in society - todays society isnt what it was 1000 years ago for us Scandinavians, I think you will come to learn just a thing or two in the next 800 years, dont you.
if what you have is "growing" and "evolving," I'll stay stagnant, thanks
and if you still have, as you mentioned in an earlier post, rapes and murders, then your style of justice and punishment isn't working that well, people aren't afraid of it, either; just out of curiousity, what is the typical jail term there for rape and murder, and what is the recidivism rate after they get out? does your system do a lot of rehab and retraining/reeducating, or is it focused on punishment first?
Your own nation is still so very young, to Europe looking in we see the brashness, overcondifence and cockyness leading towards "a fall" or simply heading for reformation.
just because we are young, doesn't mean we're stupid or wrong about how to do things (as you mention, we did come very far, very much faster than Europe, we had a much later start, but our 'model' was better because we zoomed past you guys), but I can sort of agree with you, with the way things are going, there are those in power who would very much like to change our 'model' into a European-Socialist system
trying to police the world
who else is going to? Sweden? how many people have you all freed from despotic tyrants in all the history of your nation?
seek this type of a "final" solution.
please do not use that phrasing
Your country is overworked, stretched thin and putting on a good face.
yeah, gee, we don't spend a month out of every summer (and numerous other weeks throughout the year) with the whole country on vacation...could that be one reason we have accomplished so much so quickly as a nation, we actually *work hard*? ...freedom, free markets and lack of government intervention in every aspect of our lives helped, too, and that's why we've come to a nearly screeching halt the last several years, those things I mentioned above are stopping in the attempted change over to a Euro system
My instinctual rection is never revenge, couldnt imagine living my life that way, if thats your instinctual reaction maybe you need to consider thats your neighbours too and so on
exactly! don't you think knowing that keeps most (sane) people in line? 'I'd like to do ___, but if I do, it could be done back to me, so I won't'
core issue of your nation, it wont last, cant last somethings got to give eventually.
if the current trend continues, and people like the "Occupy Wall Street"-types win, then you will, sadly, be correct
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bindiboi
12 years ago
Sorry Psilome, but sending your prisoners to a spa is not punishment. Your country treats murderers and other prisoners as if they are on vacation.
I care a lot for my fellow man however, serial killers and rapists are not men, they are not human, why should I treat them as if they are?
I actually do have some conflictions over capital punishment, but not for the reasons most people have. I think that rotting in prison for the rest of ones life is worse than death. But in today prisons (no, not all) it can be a cakewalk because people want to treat them humanly. But due to the fact that we the taxpayer must pay for their incarceration, I say just get rid of them and remover the cancer from the world and be done with it. If it is painful, good! I'm sure the pain Mrs. Jane Doe experienced while she was being raped and stabbed to death was much worse.
The only thing I disagree with ih8te said was the left-wing stuff. I know that most of us "left-wing" people tend to coddle prisoners, and care about their feelings. Not all of us do. Other than that, everything ih8te said is 100% on the money.
Anyone have a Fpoon I could borrow?
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xoab
12 years ago
Ih8tt, everything you have said in this board is 100% perfect. I agree with absolutely everything you've mentioned when it comes to the death penalty and America. Glad to see there are still people like you in the USA!
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loco_pescados
12 years ago
check the dates.. good chance both of those guys are long gone.. its a shame because both had some holes in their arguments.
my take?
its civilized when the citizens allow the state to hand down the justice, whatever that action would be... (check the date posted)
eye for an eye is no longer a cycle when someone who values their own eyesight halts their hand -- or -- someone walking down the street realizes, 'hey, I don't want to be that guy'... or simply wiping the earth of retaliatory persons.
if the accusation is death penalty doesn't prevent the crime, the counter should be, 'is life in jail a stronger/equal/less of a determent?'
most appeals coming late or near the time of execution usually does not care about the crime itself but rather the state's ability to carry out its sovereignty/laws...
what was the point of empathy? one could have empathy for the victim/ only the accused/ them both or neither. none should matter if the (penal) laws are correctly written in a cause/effect statements.
if one insist the penal institutions outside the US are not the same from those in America, another could speculate that the death penalty (and case proceedings) of the US are not the same as found those outside the American border.
ps. *states* = general term meaning the government wherever that governs the laws(hoping you all understand the all American states has the sovereignty to create their own penal code/laws..)
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ih8tt
11 years ago
not gone, I merely haven't had anything to add...
eye for an eye is no longer a cycle when someone who values their own eyesight halts their hand -- or -- someone walking down the street realizes, 'hey, I don't want to be that guy'... or simply wiping the earth of retaliatory persons.
the retaliators aren't the problem, they're simply reacting, if nothing was done to them in the first place, there'd be nothing to react to, so how 'bout 'wiping the Earth' of criminals? ...oh, wait, that's what I'm already advocating...
if the accusation is death penalty doesn't prevent the crime, the counter should be, 'is life in jail a stronger/equal/less of a determent?'
I would like to see a study done on that, but I suspect it would prove that life in jail
isn't a deterrent, or the findings would have been shouted from the rooftops by anti-capital punishment advocates
my guess would be that, for some people, even taking into account the confinement and whatever unpleasantries may befall them in prison, having a free roof over their heads, free food and free (and ever expanding, to now include sex-reassignment surgery and related procedures) and great medical care isn't the worst way to spend their lives, and if they get to off someone they didn't like to boot, all the better; think about it this way, once they're there for life (assuming it's a state without the death penalty), they can do pretty much anything (assaulting or even killing guards or other prisoners), what more can be done to them? you can't serve more than 'the term of your natural life'
most appeals coming late or near the time of execution usually does not care about the crime itself but rather the state's ability to carry out its sovereignty/laws...
I'm not quite sure what you mean here, but if you're saying that appeals rarely focus on the
evidence, then I agree with you, most are based on legal procedural technicalities (the burden of following falling mostly on the prosecutors, who have to be so very careful, whereas the defense is often given much leeway), appellate lawyers pour over every word in a transcript looking for any tiny thing they can list as a reason the condemned should, at the least, get a new trial, at the most, be released
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