MovieChat Forums > Thor: The Dark World (2013) Discussion > Purpose of a black Heimdall

Purpose of a black Heimdall

posted 8 years ago by sth78
25 replies | jump to latest

I guess I should start with the compulsary disclaimer: This is by no means intended as racism, and not at all a criticism of the actor (whom I think did a good job).

That being said, why did they cast a black actor as Heimdall? Norse mythology has its origin in the Scandinavian countries and originates from around the years 600-700 A.D. At this point, people in Scandinavia had never seen a black person. When they first got acquainted with people of different skin color centuries later, they were somewhat astounded.

Since the Heimdall that the Scandinavian people a thousand years ago most certainly was not black in the people's imagination, why did they decide to make Heimdall black in this movie? And I believe Idris Elba was cast as Heimdall in the original Thor too.

[–] justanicknamed 8 years ago

The friend of Thor's who is Asian/Oriental looking is from another planet than Asgard. Why can't Heimdall be from another world as well?

Also, in the mythology, did the Scandinavian people "see" ALL of gods? In other words, I look at the Bible as a fictionalized work of "fact." As in, the stories of the Old Testament were handed down by word of mouth for thousands of years. Goliath was a "giant", but what does that mean? Back then, the average height for a man was around 5'6", and David was still a boy. So, he might have been 5' tall.

If Goliath were just 6'6" tall, he'd look like a "giant" compared to David. In today's world, 6'6" is tall, but considering the AVERAGE height in the NBA is 6'7" inches, it would be hard to say he was a giant.

I'm not familiar enough with Norse mythology to know if they ever claimed Heimdall walked the earth or if those who "knew" the gods gave a full description of him.

[–] sth78 8 years ago

But Heimdall isn't from another world in the mythology.

I know that the filmmakers are at liberty to make alterations, also to decide to make him a different color, but I was just wondering why they did so.

In depictions of Heimdall, he is shown as a typical blond viking:

http://norse-mythology.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Heimdall_an_der_Himmelsbr%C3%BCcke.jpg

[–] justanicknamed 8 years ago

Nothing that you wrote answers my questions at all. Why can't he be from another world and Asgard is just where he is stationed - sort of like being from small town N. Dakota, joining the navy, and being stationed on a base in the south Pacific?

And, again, was it ever claimed that he walked the earth and had humans "actually" see him, or is he just described that way because that is the way they described him.

I grew up reading comics from the mid 1970's until the mid 1980's. I'm not PC, but I also had no problem with them changing minor, side characters race. If they can carry the part, they can carry the part. Idris Elba carried the part.

[–] sth78 8 years ago

Nothing that you wrote answers my questions at all. Why can't he be from another world and Asgard is just where he is stationed

Because in Nordic mythology, he is as Asgardian as Thor, Sif, Frigg, Odin, and the lot. Loki is the only resident of Asgard that is from another world, Jotunheim. If this movie wants to establish that Heimdall is from one of the other worlds, then it should state it clearly and explain why the decided to make that change.

And, again, was it ever claimed that he walked the earth and had humans "actually" see him, or is he just described that way because that is the way they described him.

The Nordic mythology contains several descriptions of their gods, so it is clear that those who believed in them have visualized them. Which also is quite common; the idea of a god that no one knows what he looks like is primarily a Judean, Christian, and Muslim idea. Not at all common in polytheistic religions.

I'm not PC, but I also had no problem with them changing minor, side characters race. If they can carry the part, they can carry the part. Idris Elba carried the part.

He certainly did, and once the decision was made to let Heimdall be black, I can't think of many better choices than Idris Elba to portray him. What I am curious about is how they came to make that decision. I am by no means saying that it was a bad call, I am just wondering why it was made.

[–] justanicknamed 8 years ago

If this movie wants to establish that Heimdall is from one of the other worlds, then it should state it clearly and explain why the decided to make that change.

Why? He is a relatively minor character in the greater scheme of things. Hell, I didn't remember who he was at first and I used to read Marvel & Thor all of the time.

It just isn't that big of a deal - the same way as why they didn't bother to explain why one of the Warriors Three used his left hand for sword fighting in the first movie and his right hand in the second one.

[–] sth78 8 years ago

Yes, I know this is nitpicking, but I was wondering if the movie was trying to convey some sort of message by it.

I guess I was hoping (and still am) that there is a bigger point of it than just political correctness.

Again, Elba did a good job, and he wasn't cast just to be potlically correct. He is a very talented actor, in this movie probably 3rd best after Tom Hiddleston and Anthony Hopkins. It is the role as Heimdall that I am questioning.

[–] ricky_says_hi 8 years ago

Kenneth Branagh said something about "if you have a chance to have a great actor in the part, everything else is irrelevant"

Since he said he was a fan of the comic when he was younger, maybe he just felt Idris Elba would be a good choice for him. It's sort of like when Nicole Kidman was cast as Mrs Coulter in The Golden Compass. The character is black haired in the book but the author said "I was wrong, she has to be blonde" - as Kidman had been his personal favourite for the role.

[–] sth78 8 years ago

Makes sense. Kind of when they cast Daniel Craig as James Bond, even though Bond is dark-haired in the novels.

[–] Hurricane_G-Man 8 years ago

The changing of Heimdall's ethnicity is ultimately irrelevant when the main cast still resemble their comic book and to a lesser extent there Norse counterpart.

Anyways as shown by the Warriors 3 Asgard is composed of more then Europeans even by the comic book standard.

[–] haxemon 8 years ago

My take is that all mythology (in our world or in the MCU) is based on guesses and assumptions anyway.

So if Asgardians (who can be black, white etc) did visit Earth and mostly stuck to Scandinavia then all the 6th century Scandinavians would assume they were gods and that they all looked like them. So just because they assumed all the gods were white like them, doesn't mean they were.

Furthermore, in the MCU they've very clearly set it out that Asgardians are not Norse gods come to life but rather the opposite. Thor (and others) visited Earth a handful of times and legends grew.

But yes, Idris Elba being an actor they wanted in the film is the biggest reason. The facts above are what allowed them to not hesitate or question it when they considered Elba for Heimdall.

The Christian mythology is that man was made in god's image. But does that mean the Christian god is white? So the Christain god didn't also make black people or asians etc? "his image" could be interpreted many ways. Maybe just "two legs, two arms" or "mammalian" or "air breather" or a handful of strands of DNA. If you looked at the DNA of a tree and that of a human you'd be hard pressed to say which is which.

/end sidetrack

Point being, any mythology that's passed on verbally from a handful of "wisemen" over the centuries is open to adjustments. Maybe the ancient Norse did meet Heimdall but the people who ran things back then insisted that he was actually white (despite the protest of a handful that had seen him) until the protests stopped.

Reading my signature constitutes admission that I am correct. (Too late)

[–] dragonsheart-1 8 years ago

to annoy the comic book purist.

Sense8 (2015): "If you don't mind, I prefer to think you. are a hallucination."

[–] mentattodd 8 years ago

Let's take this from a different angle for a second. If you have not seen it, you need to watch Night of the Living Dead (1968) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063350/combined and notice that the star, radically enough for a 60's American film, is a black man.

When asked why he was cast, was it to make a point for example, etc., George A. Romero stated many times it was simply because Duane Jones had the best audition and skin color had nothing to do with the casting.

Perhaps Idris Elba gave the best audition (for the role), had the best resume (for the role), and was hired based on that and not his skin tone (for the role)?

[–] sth78 8 years ago

Yes, as said before, Idris Elba makes a stellar job. There is nothing wrong with his performance at all. IMO only Hopkins and Hiddleston outshine his performance in the entire movie.

My question is, however, that he is supposed to portray one of the Old Norse (=Viking) gods. And the vikings were all white and most of them had never even seen a person of dark skin color.

I mean, you would never cast a white person to portray an African god, would you? It would be considered untrue to the folklore.

[–] all4sunni 8 years ago

<<<I mean, you would never cast a white person to portray an African god, would you? It would be considered untrue to the folklore.>>>

It may interest you know that throughout history plenty of white actors have been cast to play people of color. See the Wasington Post article below for a small sampling.

If there's a "point" to casting Idris Elba, aside from the actor's ability to bring something to the role that no one else can, I'm hoping it is that our world is 'bigger,' more inclusive and somewhat less racist than it was in the days when the comic books were originally written. That, or they wanted to sell more tickets.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/01/28/100-times-a-white-actor-played-someone-who-wasnt-white/

[–] mentattodd 8 years ago

Have you seen any pictures of Jesus? The real man was Middle Eastern, born near the Gaza Strip in a town called Jerusalem (if the historical parts of "The Bible" have any truth to them). The people born in that region, the "ethnic Jews," usually have very dark hair, darker skin (than say someone from Great Britain) and usually a hooked nose as opposed to the royal aquiline nose. I am not trying to be racist here so please do not take it in that direction. My point is, 9 times out of 10 if an ethnic Jew is on a TV show, they can generally be pointed out. Just like 9 times out of 10 an ethnic Scandinavian can be picked out and 9 times out of 10 an ethnic Chinese person can be picked out.

So, with that in mind, take a look at images of Jesus. Anything with him in it (at least 9 out of ten times, or 90% of the time for those who like percentages) dated from 1200 to 1800 CE will feature a man who looks like he is right out of Norse mythology. Long blonde hair, often blue eyes, white skin, tall and slender, aqualine nose. You would think the artists who painted those never saw what an ethnic Jew looked like.

So substituting an Anglo/Scandinavian white person for someone of color has been common for centuries. Maybe having a black Asgardian isn't so bad?

[–] justanicknamed 8 years ago

My question is, however, that he is supposed to portray one of the Old Norse (=Viking) gods. And the vikings were all white and most of them had never even seen a person of dark skin color.

Do you know that they "saw" him? As in, do the legends tell of him coming down to Earth and the people knew exactly what he looked like?

Or, is it a case of their gods look like them because they look like this and since they were made in their god's image, their gods must look like them?

If Heimdall were Thor or Odin or Loki - someone whose race actually matters, I'd have more of an issue with it.

[–] 3PocketCharlie 8 years ago

I would say because Idris Elba is black. He has a great voice and presence as the stoic Heimdall.

All glory to the Hypnotoad

[–] sth78 8 years ago

But they would never cast a white person to play Nelson Mandela, regardless of voice and presence ;)

Otherwise I agree.

[–] justanicknamed 8 years ago

There is a difference between casting a person of a different race for an actual, historical figure, and a fictional character who may have never had his/her race defined previously.

[–] sleeping_gorilla 8 years ago

I'm sure the reason is because Idris Elba is a rising star and they wanted some diversity with the characters. Not out of place since Thor has plenty of alien buddies, and Heimdall doesn't do much in the movies so he's a fairly safe change.

[–] J_Howlett1886 7 years ago

In this universe the Norse mythology is based on these characters not the other way around. So clearly in the Marvel universe they either never actually saw Heimdall and assumed he was white or they just didn't mention his race and people assumed he was white because he was a Scandinavian god.

[–] mariakelly-04164 7 years ago

Why cast a black/British actor as Heimdall? So Idris Elba could be in it, that's why!

Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy?

[–] monkeyshines (1) 5 years ago

According to https://www.britannica.com/topic/Heimdall , he was supposed to have the fairest skin of all the gods... he was called the shining god because he was so white. If you flip this and make pc concessions to sell movies where white people play black gods, people would flip out.