Death Row inmates are going to die anyway...why speed up the process? - Into the Abyss (2012) Discussion

Families deserve justice!

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[–] s-d-2 12 years ago

I agree with you...and even more then Justice - closure is also crucial.

However, I think since they will die anyway, in prison, justice will be served.

killing them early wont bring back their loved ones.

So I guess they will never really get true justice anyway.

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[–] ChefC 12 years ago

Letting them live out their life in prison won't bring back the loved ones either.

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Gone too soon:
Firefly
New Amsterdam
Journeyman
Life
terriers
SGU
Prime Suspect

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[–] laurendorward-990-190608 12 years ago

Nothing will, and another murder does not help you come to terms with what happened, only forgiveness will do that.

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[–] ChefC 12 years ago

Ok, I'll rape, torture and murder your sister/daughter/mother, maybe in that order, happy in the knowledge that you will forgive me. Actually think about that happining to somebody you love, I mean really think about it. It's easy to preach forgiveness when you haven't actually experienced violent loss.

If anybody did that to my loved ones I'd sure as hell feel better knowing they were dead and not living out their life with groupies writing to them every week.

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Gone too soon:
Firefly
New Amsterdam
Journeyman
Life
terriers
SGU
Prime Suspect

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[–] laurendorward-990-190608 12 years ago

No I really wouldn't because killing someone doesn't rectify any of this. I do not want to live in a world where we shove out punishments like we did hundreds of years ago, it is an ignorant way to live. Do I want to see them rotting in jail without the possibility of release, yes of course, but I do not condone murder, whether that murder be done in a "humane" way or done by a sick criminal.

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[–] ChefC 12 years ago

There's no such thing as 'rotting in jail' in this day and age. Look at the guy in this documentary, he's got a wife and child on the way.

-------
Gone too soon:
Firefly
New Amsterdam
Journeyman
Life
terriers
SGU
Prime Suspect

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[–] laurendorward-990-190608 12 years ago

Wasn't aware he was free

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[–] ChefC 12 years ago

He's freer than the 3 people he killed.

-------
Gone too soon:
Firefly
New Amsterdam
Journeyman
Life
terriers
SGU
Prime Suspect

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[–] laurendorward-990-190608 12 years ago

If that's the way you want to look at it....I don't see it that way, never will.

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[–] ChefC 12 years ago

I'm not sure whether the subject of him being freer than people he has killed, is debatable.

He's free to wake up in the morning, enjoy the sunrise, watch his child grow older, make friends, take up hobbies, learn various things/trades/skills/academics. Ponder the meaning of life, quietly reflect on his actions, come to peace with what he's done, write a book, watch the newest show on HBO. Play basketball, football, pool, whatever else sports you can do in prison.

The people he killed are free to remain dead and those who loved them are free to miss them each and every day. For a car.

-------
Gone too soon:
Firefly
New Amsterdam
Journeyman
Life
terriers
SGU
Prime Suspect

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[–] laurendorward-990-190608 12 years ago

The question of being free in prison is debatable

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[–] ChefC 12 years ago

I don't recall saying he was free.

I do recall saying he was more so than his victims.

Although you already knew that.

-------
Gone too soon:
Firefly
New Amsterdam
Journeyman
Life
terriers
SGU
Prime Suspect

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[–] thescreendream 11 years ago

I agree with you Chef. I would go further to argue that lauren lacks the ability to empathize correctly in this situation. They obviously can't empathize with the families that this has happened to. If anything lauren is empathizing with the murderers.

These men killed three people for a car. They were found guilty and admitted to it. Was a car worth the lives of three people? Are these men's lives worth more than the people they murdered? The answer to both questions is no. When you purposefully revoke the right of another person to live, then your right to life should be revoked. That's fair. That's justice. That's why there is such a thing as a death penalty.

If it were true justice, then these men would die the same way their victims did. We can't do that, however, because sane people don't violently kill one another. That's why we do it humanely. Because we are better than them. Their right to life will be revoked. That's justice. But we do it humanly because we are better than them.

People who oppose the death penalty are sheltered. They don't want to believe that anybody could possibly hurt another person in such a horrendously awful way. The truth is, it happens. Everyday. A thousand times over. If they only knew the atrocities that happen in other countries they would gladly accept the death penalty as a correct form of justice. In short, they need to grow up....

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[–] ehbunner 11 years ago

I have to agree with what you've said, I never will understand people who think that way. Any person who can take an innocent persons life doesn't deserve to live in my eyes, if you choose to take someones life you give up your right to live

I'll also never get the people who will inevitably imply that killing a murder/rapist/pedophile makes us just as bad as them, I mean to me there is a LARGE difference between killing someone who is scum and has destroyed innocent people's lives and from removing despicable people from this planet.

And of course it's not a completely black and white issue, as much as I would like to have every rapist killed it is a really easy thing to frame someone for, and of course not everyone who goes to jail for murder deserves to die some have to do it in self defense but especially cases like this one where it was over something so trivial

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[–] seventyfiftyone 11 years ago

No offense screendream but, I find your comment a little on the ignorant side. You do not know who is, or is not sheltered based on their stand on the death penalty. I am someone directly effected by something like this and I am not for the death penalty. Nor am I some tree hugger or someone just sheltered within a bubble. I have seen the world and I have fought for my country as a Marine. Different people see things different ways. I would rather the guy that killed my mother rot in a jail cell for the next 40 or so years than to just end it for him now by the state. I see it as something way to easy for him considering he killed my mother however he felt like doing it and the options for capital punishment are lethal injection, electric chair, or firing squad?? How about they let the family of the victim choose how he goes. Humanely or not. My mother didn't have that option why should he?

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[–] kcdee 9 years ago

"I would rather the guy that killed my mother rot in a jail cell..."

Trouble is they don't rot in jail, like ChefC said -

"He's free to wake up in the morning, enjoy the sunrise, watch his child grow older, make friends, take up hobbies, learn various things/trades/skills/academics."

How is that being punished?

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[–] seventyfiftyone 9 years ago

He is not free to do all that. As life would have it, I know people who work in his facility and he is locked up 23 out of every 24 hours. He is not a model inmate and even if he were free to do all that you said, it is all with someone telling him when to eat, sleep, shower and wake up for the rest of his life. That is not freedom. He sleeps in a concrete room. His daughter is 22 or 23 years old now and if you think you can watch your child grow from behind bars, you're wrong. As a contractor and someone who is able to spend almost a month home every 4th month from out here in Afghanistan, I still don't have a full grasp on reality back home. I watched those grow around me and came home to people living their lives. Its a sobering experience and mine is by choice.

I forgot to add that my initial comment was toward this statement:
"People who oppose the death penalty are sheltered. They don't want to believe that anybody could possibly hurt another person in such a horrendously awful way. The truth is, it happens. Everyday. A thousand times over. If they only knew the atrocities that happen in other countries they would gladly accept the death penalty as a correct form of justice. In short, they need to grow up...."

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[–] kcdee 9 years ago

Ok. Good to know. I shouldn't believe what others say.

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[–] seventyfiftyone 9 years ago

I think we have every right to believe whatever we wish for whatever reasons we choose. I wasn't talking down to you, just giving you my perspective on the matter as I am someone on the other end of this that went through it. That as much as so and so would like to think I am sheltered, I see on average 2-4 new Countries every year and do so, on and off the beaten path. Ive seen horror up close and personal. I know what people are capable of outside of watching horror movies because of my own life choices and where they have physically led me. That not everyone has to believe in something just because one person says it has to be so. The person I was originally replying to created their own reality around a circumstance they may or may know nothing about first hand. How could that person justify themselves being correct if all they know is what they read or see in the media? Again though, I hope I didn't offend you. I was just taken back by their comment and do not like to be lumped into some category just because I seem to fit a mold they create out of their own assumptions.

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[–] kcdee 9 years ago

No, I wasn't offended. I appreciate that you know more than me.
I was too quick to believe something I really know nothing about. Even though it does appear sometimes that inmates have all the mod cons, but still it would be awful to be locked up.

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[–] franzkabuki 11 years ago

"If it were true justice, then these men would die the same way their victims did".

To be more precise, that`s what passed for justice in Medieval times; these days, we call it revenge murder. And the idea that any killing could ever be "humane" is quite preposterous.

Plus I should point out that your entire last paragraph is pure incoherent drivel. People who oppose the death penalty are "sheltered"? Like, for instance, Werner Herzog is "sheltered"? LOL.

"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

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[–] MsAnthropy 10 years ago

Thank you for pointing out the difference between justice and revenge. I'm so tired of the "but what if someone killed your mother??" rationalization. Yes, if someone killed my mother, I would want to kill that person. If someone raped me, I would want to kill that person. If someone stole my car stereo, I might just get mad enough to want to kill that person. The point is that just because I want it doesn't mean it's right or ok.

If killing another person is wrong, then it's wrong whether I'm doing it or the state is doing it. Those of you who think administering the death penalty is still such a fantastic idea might also want to take a look at global statistics. Most nations we would consider developed and civilized see the act of murdering prisoners as brutal and inhumane.

Remember what Ghandi said: An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

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The past is now part of my future; the present is well out of hand.

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[–] Daimaju 9 years ago

I'm super late, but I gotta thank you for that post, MsAnthropy:

Thank you for pointing out the difference between justice and revenge. I'm so tired of the "but what if someone killed your mother??" rationalization. Yes, if someone killed my mother, I would want to kill that person. If someone raped me, I would want to kill that person. If someone stole my car stereo, I might just get mad enough to want to kill that person. The point is that just because I want it doesn't mean it's right or ok.

If killing another person is wrong, then it's wrong whether I'm doing it or the state is doing it. Those of you who think administering the death penalty is still such a fantastic idea might also want to take a look at global statistics. Most nations we would consider developed and civilized see the act of murdering prisoners as brutal and inhumane.

Remember what Ghandi said: An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Could not have said it better!

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[–] mulhollandpsycho 12 years ago

Your definition of justice is not representative of my definition of justice.

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[–] thescreendream 11 years ago

Then please, enlighten us. What exactly is your definition of justice?

Mine comes from the dictionary. "The quality of being fair and reasonable." When you revoke the right of another individual to live, your right to life should be revoked. That's fair and reasonable. That's justice.

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] toddtw 12 years ago

I agree, ending a murderer's life doesn't change anything. It gives them respite from a crappy existence behind bars the rest of their life. I would rather their time in prison be extremely unpleasant (lifelong solitary confinement), then give them a quick and easy escape from life.

If someone close to me was murdered, I wouldn't feel justice had been served if they were executed. The only real justice for me would be to enact my vengeance upon that person myself, but then I would have to face the consequences of my actions. The state executing someone does nothing for the victims or their families.

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[–] mulhollandpsycho 12 years ago

Watch "El Secreto de Sus Ojos" for a visual of your post.

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[–] Lankasterss 12 years ago

Thanks mulhollandpsycho.

An amazing movie!

"No, they'll give him an injection and he'll take a nap. It's not fair. I'd gladly trade places with him."

Death penalty (a nap) is nothing compared to perpetual prison, a life of emptiness, alone, and he'll die soon or later...

Any movies like this?

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[–] JBounds71 12 years ago

I use to be all for the death penalty, but in recent years have changed my stance on it. My attitude was kill and be killed. A close friend of mine was murdered when I was in my early 20's and that kind of set off my thinking.

I guess after a while you begin to see killing someone because they killed someone is just wrong. They should, however spend the rest of their lives behind bars.

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[–] Caroline_117 12 years ago

In my belief when you a take a life, you forfeit the freedom our country gave you and that you should live the rest of your life in prison. I do not believe though that it gives our government the right to kill you.

These people might be murderers, but they are still human beings, no act in your life will ever change that, and every human has the right to live, no matter what you have done. I am shocked how people conclude that since I am against the death penalty, I have forgotten the victims. There is not a day that goes by I don't think of the victim's lives and how a violent act shattered their dreams. Though we must realize that executing the guilty will not bring back the innocent. It wont change what the person did and the victim's family will still have a gap in their life.

Michal Perry should not have died. He was human. He was 28 years old and he was not like you and me. He did he a horrible thing, but should have only lost the freedom that you and me have, not his life.

I dedicate my life to the fair and equal treatment of the guilty and accused facing our justice system, it is a broken system and it will make mistakes, and it may cause some their life.

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[–] haniblectre-1 12 years ago

From the declaration of independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Interesting, you say that when you kill someone you forfeit the freedom our country gave you. So on the above list, we have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but when you kill someone you only lose the liberty part of that list? So you still have the right to life and the pursuit of happiness? How can you cherry pick which rights you lose and which rights you get to keep? What if I say you can keep your life and your freedom, but you are no longer able to pursue happiness (ie: the government systematically makes your life a living hell). That's just as valid, based on your logic, isn't it? I mean, the point is, it seems arbitrary that you get to cherry pick which rights you lose and which rights you keep. I mean, I can say "you lose the freedom our country gave you" and interpret that to mean you lose your right to life, because that's a freedom our country gave you as well.

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[–] intexor 12 years ago

I am pro death penalty. If I lived in the US, my views overall would be pretty extremely democratic, but not about the death penalty. I try to view this as a rational human being. Putting someone in prison for decades is actually much worse, and if someone commits one of the crimes we as a society view as the most severe and there is no doubt at all this person committed that crime, I'm all for the death punishment. It's cheaper and more humane.

I understand why people are against it. A lot of those reasons though have to do with the fact that the death punishment as it exists now, especially in the US, is a faulty system. In my opinion the death penalty is totally justified but not executed well, and it's those mistakes in the system that makes a lot of people be against it even though in essence, if you're a man of science and not faith, there is no reason to be against it.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] mulhollandpsycho 12 years ago

It costs far more to sentence a person to death than to sentence him or her to life in prison without possibility of parole.

www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost
www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/27/just-cost-death-penalty-killer-state-budgets/
articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/20/local/la-me-adv-death-penalty-costs-20110620

When Fox News says the cost of issuing the death penalty is high, the cost is high.

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[–] megafauna005 12 years ago

That's only because of the endless appeals and challenges. Those need to be curtailed then costs will go down!

Texas just served justice to a scumbag RAPIST/MURDER 3 days ago by carrying out his execution! Rodrigo Hernandez also CONFESSED to another murder on the gurney before execution!

To all the anti-DP wimps out there see how GUILTY these killers really are!

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[–] trymyproduct11 12 years ago

Characterizing all who are opposed to the death penalty as "wimps" tells us all we need to know about what kind of person you are.

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[–] skat1140 12 years ago

They take their time with capital cases, because they don't want to make a mistake and kill an innocent person.

Texas has already executed a factually innocent man, due to this wonderfully expedited process.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham

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[–] carl_johnson-1 12 years ago

Where does it say he was "factually innocent"? The entry suggests he could have been acquitted, which really isn't the same thing as saying he didn't do it.

As for the original post, life is a gift, so by removing it sooner than later, we make sure not to be gifting those who don't deserve it anymore.

Besides, life in prison without parole is cruel, and we're supposed to be against cruel punishments.

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[–] random_guy2 12 years ago

Although I don't necessarily disagree with your stance, I think that argument doesn't work. After all, everyone is going to die anyway, so why even imprison anyone? Why not just let justice take its course through the normal measures of life? The reason that would not be just is because it doesn't involve actual fitting punishment, even if the end is the same (and the end is the same for all of us).

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[–] s-d-2 12 years ago

@Random_Guy2
Thanks for the response.

The argument really only deals with the aspect of the death sentence as a means toward justice and not anything else.

Death is going to happen anyway, prison on the other hand is something doesn't happen naturally, so we have to implement it - this is why we can't "let justice take it's course through the normal measures of life" - as you put it.

In addition, we have to separate the criminals from our society so that they wont hurt anyone else, so yes, we still need to imprison them.

As for actual fitting punishment, in our society we translate the severity of the crime to the length of time they stay segregated from society.

It's really apples and oranges, but that's the best we can do.

So you take the most horrible crime and that translates to life in prison with no parole, which is the maximum length of time that we can hand out - so the maximum crime gets the maximum length of time - i.e. actual fitting punishment/

The death sentance is somewhat of an anomally in this respect because instead of handing out the maximum length of time for prison, we choose to take the prisoners life sooner rather then wait for it to happen on its own.

Moreover, some people don't consider the death penalty is punishment at all as it shortens the time the length of their time/punishment, so it a way you're doing them a favor.

Yes, we are all going to die, and yes, the end is the same for all of us...so is the death penalty really qualifies as "punishment"?

Thanks again for your posting.

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[–] jamigo4 12 years ago

The BEST argument AGAINST the Death Penalty is a very SIMPLE one. By suggesting DEATH as as REMEDY to the crime of MURDER, we are simply stating that HOMOCIDE is a Socially Acceptable way of settling disputes among human beings. If that is true, we are saying that killing is NOT an Offense Against Humanity and therefore MURDER is not really a CRIME, so why are we punishing people for it in the first place? This is the most HYPOCRITICAL argument ever presented in the name of Civilized Society! It is basically "Do what I SAY, not what I DO!"

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[–] alchyholic 12 years ago

I agree with death row because I think they deserve to know how to feels to be murdered, and to realize that this is the end, the fear, like what they did to their poor victims.

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