MovieChat Forums > Into the Abyss (2012) Discussion > 'I think he was the most dangerous of an...

'I think he was the most dangerous of anyone I ever met.'


"However I have seen quite a few men and one woman on death row, and according to my instincts no one was as dangerous as he was. I think he was the most dangerous of anyone I ever met."
That's Herzog speaking of Michael Perry in this AICN interview: http://www.aintitcool.com/node/51957
Herzog has said similar things in other interviews, too.

I saw Into the Abyss last weekend, and it's hard not to be chilled watching Perry, guilty beyond doubt, glibly and laughingly saying what an injustice it is that he's about to be executed.
Watch Perry's eyes- that is a psychopath.

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Hang him!

That's KARMA you know?

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If you were given the right and execute the guy yourself you'd be seen by individuals around you and society in general as a dangerous and crazy person.

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That's why the JUSTICE dept. handles executions!

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So you agree to have a third party namely the "JUSTICE dept" have blood on their hands but not on yours? How easy!

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Sorry! There is no blood with lethal injection!

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yea I think that little joke wasn't very effective since your original comment was about hanging, idiot.

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You don't even get metaphors. What a moron you are.

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bargain ur a true retard. id love to kill him, nobody would consider me crazy. its idiots like you, who make usless general statments and defend psychos, who r dangerous.

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Also dangerous and idiotic: People who think killing other people is just that easy, and who volunteer eagerly to do it.

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but that is not a person. thats the point

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Yeah, that's one way to train for it, alright -- objectify the other person into something other than human. Al Qaeda does it all the time. So does pretty much every military in the world now, which explains why neither we nor other armies have the false-fire problem we used to have (where soldiers can't bring themselves to fire directly at the enemy).

I'm telling you, no matter how tough you think you are, if you haven't killed a person (and haven't been well-trained in how to ignore the fact that it _is_ a person), you have no idea. I know people who have, and it's not how people think, not like the movies, nothing. You saw one of them in this film (the executioner who quit once that facade was broken). Here's another: My cousin, a sniper on one of the first SWAT teams ever formed (Atlanta), had to shoot a bank robber who had hostages tied around him. He was given the order to shoot from a rooftop if he had an opening, and when one of the hostages slipped and pulled down another one, he had the opening. Fired once, hit the guy in the back, guy spun around looking for where the shot came from, fired again and killed him. Mike was as tough an SOB as you would ever find in your life, 6'3", about 250 of absolute solid muscle, the prime example of a Southern gung-ho red-state boy, kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out, all of it. He had nightmares for years about it. Couldn't talk without welling up. Just tore him up.

Now: Could we have trained him to kill while looking right into somebody's face? Sure. Is that how you want us?

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i completely agree that unless you have been thru an experience you have noooo clue about it. however, please dont make these psychos into humans, they are not. what you are doing is dangerous.

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But they _are_ humans. Wired wrong, chemically wrong, morally wrong, some combination of the above. I do _not_ believe in some kind of easy redemption. I do believe there is such a thing as a lost cause, somebody who just isn't wired right and cannot ever be allowed into society at large. I absolutely guarantee you Herzog would tell you the same. This isn't softheaded "oh, they're just like us, we can't kill them" opposition to the DP. You're right: They're not like us. And plenty of people grow up poor, in tough circumstances, with a single parent, whatever, without becoming killers, pushers, etc. My own mother used to absolutely see red when she'd hear one of those stories starting. She grew up in the Depression, one of six children of an alcoholic father who was frequently gone. They'd go barefoot all year during warm weather so they wouldn't wear out their government shoes, so they'd have them in the winter. A couple of the brothers would take a bucket and go to the pipe at the back of the butcher plant, where the trimmings would come out in a liquid slop; they'd take it home, boil it to sterilize it, and then that would be dinner. I mean, you talk about POOR. And not one of them turned out criminal, nor would any of them have ever used that as an excuse.

So I'm more sympathetic than you think. Fact is, it doesn't even bother me all that much to use the DP in cases where guilt is conclusively established by hard evidence (this does _not_ include confessions, which are false some percentage of the time). Most anti-DP arguments are very weak, IMHO. "State murder"? Give me a break. Is incarceration "state kidnapping"? Of course the state has a right to do things an individual does not, and no sane person would want it otherwise. Tough background? Already addressed. Cheapens life? Don't think so, really. You can just as easily make the case that only the ultimate penalty for those who take life shows that society values life; that is, if we _don't_ have the DP as a possibility, it shows that we don't value the lives of the victims. That's a pretty powerful argument to me. No deterrence? That's probably true. People who murder people generally aren't thinking about consequences whether those consequences involve execution or prison. So what? Is anybody in favor of not incarcerating thieves just because their jail terms don't seem to deter them from committing similar crimes once they get out? That is, is deterrence the only practical value here? Who says so?

In total, these establish the idea that it is possible to be pro-DP and yet be a civilized and intelligent person -- that it is not necessarily true that being pro-DP makes you some kind of vengeful barbarian.

In Herzog's case, though, it seems to me his argument is more powerful precisely because it accepts everything I'm saying above. That argument goes something like this: Recognizing the fact that these people are incurable, that they are not about to be remediated, that they are not "like us," etc., and accepting everything I'm saying above, Herzog is saying that it still doesn't add anything positive to this whole situation or make us better as a society if we kill them, even if that killing is justified.

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well i guess we are in agreement. ive never heard of herzog, but hes seems like an idiot and his doc his awful. whats the point of spending 1hr w 1 of these creatures when 2min will prove too much. weve all met these psychos, they constitue 1-2pct of the population. a baseball bat to the head is the only language they will understnd. if u ignore them they just get braver and louder.

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> Watch Perry's eyes - that is a psychopath

Correct, and psychopathy is a mental disorder. People with mental disorders should not be executed, they should be subject to treatment. Treatment where they can be helped, and can be studied by professionals so that they may understand the underlying symptoms/causes of the disorder.

As it is, throwing him in jail and then wasting money on an appeal process only to then kill him does nothing to help society: It does not deter other criminals and it does not bring the victims back to life. It only satisfies the bloodlust of a few individuals who themselves should examine what the need to kill someone else says about them.

There seems to be an underlying question asked by the victims of violent crimes. That is, "How could anyone do this? How could anyone kill another human being?" One need only ask the prison executioner how easy it is to suspend compassion for a human being -- the product of circumstances and choices based on those circumstances -- and murder them.

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I just saw this movie myself. I find it interesting that while Perry maintained innocence , Herzog never tried to do anything or present any evidence to suggest otherwise. Not even in a passing sense. I think it was obvious that we are to assume he is guilty, and I also didn't really buy into his sincerity. Notice he never once made an apology to the families of the victims, but forgave them. He really thought highly of himself.

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Well, remember too, he had fifty minutes in total with Perry. He had one chance to interview him; they executed him 8 days later. There's a lot of ground he could've covered; he just didn't have any time.

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[deleted]

People with mental disorders should not be executed, they should be subject to treatment.

that's all very nice, but who is going to pay for this treatment? the state, meaning the tax payers? I'm sorry but It's absurd asking good people to spend even more money on criminals.

It only satisfies the bloodlust of a few individuals who themselves should examine what the need to kill someone else says about them.

Violent criminals have no place in society and should be exterminated and this is the only need these so called individuals with bloodlust you talk about, have.

One need only ask the prison executioner how easy it is to suspend compassion for a human being -- the product of circumstances and choices based on those circumstances -- and murder them.

Please don't compare the two.

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"I'm sorry but It's absurd asking good people to spend even more money on criminals."

Um, we pay taxes to the government all the time.

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"Correct, and psychopathy is a mental disorder."

Um, since when? Not according to psychology or psychiatry. Psychopaths are considered to be entirely sane, just incapable of feeling empathy. And no, there is no way of treating them... that is, no way to make them sane because they are sane, and no way to make them start feeling empathy, because they can't.

And yes, throwing them in jail does help society, because they can no longer prey on them.

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If they are sane then not having empathy is sane, and shouldn't be a crime, unless you wish to punish the sane.


--
Lets nuke the site from orbit - its the only way to be sure.

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You sound a little confused. The phsychopaths are in jail because they caused serious physical harm to people, or committed murder, not because they're sane.

Not all psychopaths require to be incarcerated because the harm they cause doesn't justify it.

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[deleted]

Antisocial personality disorder was simply a milder, rather hastyily thought out relabelling by some psychiatrists, which can now include milder antisocial types.

Ultimately they are punished for what they DO.

They are perfectly sane and therefor must be held accountable for their actions.

The rather loose term "Antisocial personality disorder" does not in any way imply that "it's not their fault", otherwise they would be classified as insane and admitted to a mental hospital.

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[deleted]

No I'm not wrong. You're also saying medical science is wrong, which seems a bit egotistical of you.

If psychopaths weren't considered responsible they'd be placed in mental hospitals.

Some people who have had personal experience with a psychopath can become overly sympathetic, but it doesn't make them right.

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[deleted]

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/psychopath.aspx

http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Psychopathy

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/portrait-of-psychopath

Barry is right, it is a mental disorder, which can be formed in many ways, from birth, from abuse and neglect, from a trauma in childhood, to a bash on the head, damaging the temperal lobe, and causing the sufferer to forgo a personality change. Many are put in mental homes actually, but in some courts it isn't as simple as that, they have schizophrenics, people with learning difficulties etc in general population prisons.

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No, he isn't right, and it isn't a mental disorder, it's just been re-classified as one by committee, bundled up with genuine disorders because some behaviours overlapped.

And the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" is a mess not a 'bible'.

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It's an impairment in the brain, so yes it is a mental disorder. They are not (by dictionary definition) sane, so again they have a mental disorder.


http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2011/12/06/are-psychopaths-like-hannibal-lecter-brain-damaged/

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090804090946.htm

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/health_med_fit/article_267d63de-5b0f-59fa-a8f7-7fab4774d3ad.html



And the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" is a mess not a 'bible'.

So is US law.

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"It's an impairment in the brain, so yes it is a mental disorder. They are not (by dictionary definition) sane, so again they have a mental disorder."

Rubbish. They are regarded as sane by medical science and therefor the courts.

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An impairment in the brain IS a mental disorder, this is a fact as I have pinpointed out to you. You can have a mental disorder, and yet still be considered sane.
Mental illnesses are medical conditions that disrupt a person's thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others and daily functioning.Serious mental illnesses include major depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), panic disorder, post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and borderline personality disorder.

Yes they are considered sane by a court system as they are aware of what they are doing,OCD is considered a mental disorder, but they'd still be considered sane, but their actions, and their reasoning are not the same as someone of sound mind, that is a fact.
The legal system is messed up, especially in the US, any court that can send a man down for a crime he didn't commit, with utterly no evidence is a flawed system.
The brain is the most complex structure in medical science, and they haven't even hit the tip of the iceberg at how all it's components function.

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Sorry, you said: "It's an impairment in the brain, so yes it is a mental disorder. >>>>They are not (by dictionary definition) sane, so again they have a mental disorder.<<<<<<"

You claim that they are not SANE, I said well not according to medical science. A psychologist or a psychiatrist WOULD consider someone categorised as a psychopath as being SANE.

Nothing to do with the courts.


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They would consider someone with OCD sane, someone with anxiety would probably be considered sane, they are still mental disorders. They are considered sane as they are "aware of their actions", yet the definition of sane is of sound mind, now I don't believe a psychopath is of sound mind, as their brains are damaged, a damaged brain is also a mental disorder by definition, someone of sound mind would not commit such acts.

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By "they" I assume you mean Medical science? So they have it wrong do they?

Well that's you're opinion, based on what? Your gut feelings?

Also, psychology does not consider the brain of a psychopath to be "damaged", just different.

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No they say it is like the brain of someone who has had brain damage, the cortex is not formed properly ergo brain damage. That isn't psychology that is medical science.
Most psychologists who talk about this kind of thing are psychologists, not in fact psychiatrists, the two are very different.
Not all doctors agree on the subject of whether or not they are sane, at the moment they are legally considered sane, but as they are still in the infancy of the workings of our mind it will be many years before they find out the truth.

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Psychiatrists are not in any way superior to psychologists. Their ability to dispense drugs comes from their medical degree, not their 'superior' knowlege of the mind.

And yes, I know there is disagreement. But the majority of professionals, psychiatrists and psychologists alike, consider them to be sane.

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I don't know every single professional so I don't know if the majority of them consider them sane, all I know is that there are mixed views on the subject. I am guessing you don't know every single one or their views so you don't actually know if it is a majority or not either.
Every year new developments come about in the medical field, but for now they cannot really tell conclusively either way anyway. I personally believe the doctors that say they are not sane. The dictionary definition of sane is "of good sound judgement". They do not have good sound judgement, you can't if you have a brain defect.

I would say having a far superior knowledge of science, medicine etc to be superior, not to mention the training to become a psychiatrist is more extensive. There is a lot more to being a psychiatrist than dispensing drugs.

http://psychology.about.com/od/psychotherapy/f/psychvspsych.htm

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"...the training to become a psychiatrist is more extensive."

Not really. Look it up.

Why don't you read a little more on the general area?

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Um yes it is. A psychologist is 5 years a psychiatrist 7 to 8 years. It is far harder to get into medical school as well.
Think tbh you are just clutching at straws now.
Also in my country not all "psychologists" actually have the doctorate, they only have the degree and can still get a job in the field.

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No I'm not clutching at straws at all.

Not sure who you're trying to convince here. Yourself?

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No, I am perfectly happy knowing a medical doctor is more advanced in knowledge than a psychologist.
You are indeed clutching at straws, whether you wish to admit this or not.
Medical science tells us more than what any psychologist can.

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"Medical science tells us more than what any psychologist can."

That statement clearly marks you as an idiot.

Go read beyond wikipedia and ask.com, if you can.

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Hahaha you're funny, you lose the argument as well when you have to hand out petty insults as a conclusion. but hey if it makes your little life feel better call me an idiot makes very, very little difference to me.
I believe differently to you, and seeing as experts also disagree, it is only until medical science advances and can actually look at the brain and know everything about it that they will have conclusive proof, and seeing as how they have actually already found some proof that these people have brain damage similar to those who have had serious head injuries, then yes they are indeed mentally ill.

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I didn't lose the argument.

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Okay love.

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No problem, sweetie ;-)

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Surely the argument is about whether or not capital punishment is appropriate, rather than the mental state of the convicted criminal?

As I outlined above, capital punishment is never appropriate. Therefore whether or not the prisoner is clinically sane is surely irrelevant.

Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste......

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I believe this was from another poster who stated that being a psychopath or a sociopath means you have a mental illness. Since they have discovered that their brains are similarly damaged to someone with brain damage it makes it even worse, not forgetting most of them have been abused in their lives as well.
No, capital punishment should never be allowed, but some people see it as if they are sane they should be murdered. Seeing as men with a mental much lower than themselves are condemned to die, and men who are quite clearly mad, women who are quite clearly mad are also, it just shows that this "idea" is crazy, but "crazy" or not NO-ONE has the right to take another life, no matter what they have done.
Something like 10% of the men on death row are innocent, yet this still goes on. Have you seen the bodge up jobs they make of some trials as well?
Glad to be British is all I can say.

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8 years to become a psychologist, not 5.

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[deleted]

You can try to "treat" them by showing what the psychopath will gain by obeying laws, moral and otherwise. If the psychopath understands he can gain something by being law abiding he might comply.

There are successful ones in all walks of life.

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First let me clarify my position on the death penalty. Its stupid, it doesn't work, and it is used primarily as a salve to the family of the victim.

First the economic argument for getting rid of the death penalty. It costs as much to pay for the appeals process, the 10 years on Death Row, and the execution process as it does to incarcerate some for life without parole. There is almost no difference in cost actually, so the argument its cheaper to kill them is wrong.

Second, the argument, "they deserve to die." This is a completely self-defeating argument. If you say that it is moral to kill someone for murder, by logical extension it is perfectly justifiable for the family of the person executed to kill the man or woman who actually executes the murderer. By the moral standard expoused above, it is justifiable to commit murder in revenge for killing someone. No state can take the moral high ground, and legislate against homicide, by using homicide as a method of punishment. It is impossible to justify it either ethically or morally.

Thirdly, whilst we have an imperfect legal system, where innocent people are convicted of crimes, even capital crimes, then it is possible for mistakes to be made. If someone is locked up for 15 years, but subsequent evidence proves them innocent, they at least can be pardoned, compensated and released. Its a bit hard to do so when you've killed the wrong person. Whilst 95% of convictions may indeed be correct, its the 5% that concern me. And we are humans, so wrongful convictions will be made, make no mistake about it.

Finally, if we have captured someone like Perry, he is a resource to people like Robert Ressler, a profiler at the BAU from the FBI, to study and understand why he is like he is. Perhaps by understanding what caused or made this guy the way he is, we can prevent or identify earlier others like him. Any serial killer that is caught should be subjected to tests, analysis and interview over a prolonged period of time. Serial murder is on the increase, there are more than 50 serial killers currently believed to be operating in the US alone. It is only by understanding what makes someone a serial killer, either genetics, environment, upbringing, abuse, whatever, that we can go someway towards trying to stop it.

The very fact that he is a psychopath means that we can study why he became a psychopath, what then motivated him to be a violent psychopath.

There are a lot of studies that suggest up to 5% of the population could be clinically diagnosed with either anti-social personality disorder in some form, or as a sociopath. The vast majority go on to live relatively productive and crime free lives. What separates the "high-functioning" sociopath from the violent and dangerous sociopath? If we can answer those questions perhaps there is some hope of rehabilitation, or correctional therapy that would eliminate the violent sociopath or psychopath and mean that they would be able to function in our society without committing crimes.

By executing people, you are not only not saving money, you are becoming as morally bankrupt as those you wish to punish, assuming you have the right person in the first place, and you are denying society of a valuable research resource in trying to stop others like them.

How on earth can you justify killing?

Perry and others must of course be punished, they must be removed from society so that they cannot harm others, they must be understood, so that we can stop others like them.

There is no argument that you can bring to bear that justifies to me, murder by the state. And there are significant benefits to not doing so. If you catch Perry, Bundy, Dahmer, Gacy, Berkowicz, Ramirez etc etc, then you have a duty to make sure they never get the chance to harm anyone else again. You can do that without descending to their level, and you can always be sure in the knowledge that if a mistake is made, it can be rectified.

Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste......

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Good post SiPayn

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Thank you :)

Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste......

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No problem. It's nice to see some intelligence for once. Aren't you shocked by some of the responses on here? To me this "solution" should have ended years ago.
Are you American? I hope in a way you are as so many responses from Americans have been so bad.

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I am saddened by some of the responses above. I had hoped that we had moved beyond simple lusting for revenge, which is what the death penalty is, under another guise.

I am from the UK, where we used to have the death penalty, but abolished finally in the 1950s.

I do see a trend however, the more religious a country claims to be, more often the higher the rate of execution, and for a higher number of offences. This is certainly true of the western world. Perhaps if you believe in an afterlife, its easier to send someone there....

Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste......

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Yeah i'm from the UK as well, and glad this barbarity no longer takes place here.

Don't you think it's ironic that it is indeed the most religious states that execute, I think it's fairly hypocritical, surely only their god has the right to take a life, so they are basically saying that they are superior to god. Then again these states are also the poorest, and ergo the levels of education are at a lower standard.

It saddens me that a country as developed as the US (one of the largest countries in the world) share the same views as communist run countries like China, to corrupt places like Africa etc. Truly shocking. I'd also like to know how they determine the mental levels of some of these people. They have killed men with severe retardation, men with schizophrenia etc etc even socio/psycho's are mentally disturbed.

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I'm not religious, conservative or liberal. I'm registered independent. However, I do have common sense and continuing to feed private prisons money to hold inmates there doesn't seem to be very cost effective. I don't like the idea of watching someone die,..but I don't see another option. Unless they decriminalize some of the more petty crimes and save the prison space for real criminals, NOT pot dealers and drug addicts.
This is one solution that I thought might work instead of the death penalty. I love how all the bleeding hearts on here have no solutions and only hollow cries of humanity to make themselves feel like they are a good person.

This being said, to some criminals prison is an ok place to hang out. They actually don't mind it. Why do we pay to keep proven dangerous offenders locked up? Especially people that have no issues harming other people. It's simple economics, not a "lust for revenge". Prisons are just another way for tax dollars to get lost, so in my opinion the fewer there are, the better it is for the people that have jobs and the ability to show temperance in their day to day lives.

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It costs more money to kill someone than life without parole, so no it's not "simple economics". Also I would love some of the people who say how great prison it to actually stay there for a few weeks, and see if they still say that.

http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42

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I actually know several people who have been there for years, get out and say they prefer the structure in there better. It's easier for them because it eliminates a lot of the decision making out of life. There are a lot of them who feel this way.

And you're right,...having somebody sit on death row for 20 years is expensive. However, if they did it right away it would be a lot less costly. Again, it's our flawed system that makes it so expensive.

I'm not even saying I support the death penalty 100%, but I don't see any other way to handle a guy who raped and killed a 5yr old child or shot up a school. It's a little late for a guidance counselor at that point. If there is zero question of innocence like a video or a dozen eye witnesses then I am 100% for it.

I wouldn't feel this way in a case with any kind of doubt. This isn't a black and white matter and should be treated case by case.


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I'm not even saying I support the death penalty 100%, but I don't see any other way to handle a guy who raped and killed a 5yr old child or shot up a school. It's a little late for a guidance counselor at that point. If there is zero question of innocence like a video or a dozen eye witnesses then I am 100% for it.

They clearly need help, most of the time someone who rapes a child has also been through years of abuse themselves.


I actually know several people who have been there for years, get out and say they prefer the structure in there better. It's easier for them because it eliminates a lot of the decision making out of life. There are a lot of them who feel this way.

Of course they do, they are used to it, life on the outside if you have been in there for years is scary, it's like someone who has been in the army for years and coming out, they find it hard to going back to being a civilian. Same with someone who has been kidnapped for years, anyone living in conditions where you are not in total control and have structured times will exhibit this behavior, doesn't mean they like it, it means they are used to it. It's called becoming institutionalised.

And you're right,...having somebody sit on death row for 20 years is expensive. However, if they did it right away it would be a lot less costly. Again, it's our flawed system that makes it so expensive.

Everyone has the right to a trial. Already over 10% of people on death row are innocent, and many innocent men have already been killed, yet I guess that's okay as long as the case doesn't run that long.

NO-ONE has the right to take another life, no matter what they have done.

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I never said that people don't have a right to a trial,..I'm not sure why you're stating the obvious. Saying that prisoners become institutionalized is also stating the obvious. In fact, the only reason I mentioned them being ok with prison is because you were trying to make it sound like such a horrible place. When in reality prison is easier for a lot of people.

10% of people are innocent?.....haha,..that's a *beep* statistic.

And you're saying NO-ONE has the right to take another life,..except for the one who initially killed somebody. The worse thing that's going to happen to them is 3 square meals and a bed to sleep on for the rest of their life,..how does that make sense? Please....

I understand where you're coming from,..but I just don't agree with you that it's a black and white issue. I believe there are in fact cases that should carry the death penalty and some that shouldn't.

Again,...you have yet to offer up any solutions to this problem, only a one sided argument without any compromise. Maybe you should run for congress, you would be perfect.



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I never said that people don't have a right to a trial,..I'm not sure why you're stating the obvious. Saying that prisoners become institutionalized is also stating the obvious. In fact, the only reason I mentioned them being ok with prison is because you were trying to make it sound like such a horrible place. When in reality prison is easier for a lot of people.


You were the one stating that trials should be quicker. You do realise it sometimes takes years to build up a case.


10% of people are innocent?.....haha,..that's a *beep* statistic.

Way for YOU to state the obvious, still true however as this is generally the amount that have either been proven innocent before they were murdered, or unfortunately after.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/523#Executive Summary


And you're saying NO-ONE has the right to take another life,..except for the one who initially killed somebody. The worse thing that's going to happen to them is 3 square meals and a bed to sleep on for the rest of their life,..how does that make sense? Please....

Gang rape, violence, continual noise, constant lights, becoming institutionalised, never seeing grass or trees again, never knowing what time of day it is. Again I say to you, pop down and stay in an American prison for 2 weeks and tell me you think it's great.

I understand where you're coming from,..but I just don't agree with you that it's a black and white issue. I believe there are in fact cases that should carry the death penalty and some that shouldn't.

No, you see I am not arrogant enough to believe I have the right to take another life, no matter what they have done it is an archaic, barbaric, ignorant way to deal with justice.

Again,...you have yet to offer up any solutions to this problem, only a one sided argument without any compromise. Maybe you should run for congress, you would be perfect.

Most prisoners are from the poorest areas of the US, they are uneducated, impoverished and that can drive some people to do things. What needs to change is education in these poorer states, get to that problem there will be less of a problem in prisons. They also need to look at gang culture, which again happens in the poorer areas. Even people who can be considered psycho or sociopathic can function in society and do (just look at the top CEO's in the biggest companies in the world, and our governments, you'll find them there.)Generally they come from good solid middle to upper class families, again it's all about the rich and the poor. It is not an issue that can be fixed quickly, this is a serious problem, that would take decades to sort out.

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"Gang rape, violence, continual noise, constant lights, becoming institutionalised, never seeing grass or trees again, never knowing what time of day it is. Again I say to you, pop down and stay in an American prison for 2 weeks and tell me you think it's great."

You really have no idea what prison is like do you? Have you ever heard the expression "Lights out". No lights, No Noise past a certain time.
Yeah,...also,..prison isn't like what you see on TV, movies and episodes of OZ. People aren't getting ganged raped on a regular basis, or even raped. That used to happen, but rarely does any more. You should stop watching so much television and talk to people who have actually been to prison.

However, There is a lot of violence, but if you keep your mouth shut and don't insult anybody then your chances of staying out of trouble are pretty good.

ALSO-They have television, work out, play softball, and get to go work if they desire. So maybe you're the one who needs to "Pop Down" to an American prison and see for yourself. Is prison their 1st choice? NO, but it's not as horrible as you think it is.


"No, you see I am not arrogant enough to believe I have the right to take another life, no matter what they have done it is an archaic, barbaric, ignorant way to deal with justice."

yeah, but your arrogant enough to tell families who had a 5yr old child who was raped and murdered that they should feel some kind of sympathy for the guy who did it and "help" him. Also, that his punishment should be 3 meals a day and a bed to sleep on for the rest of his life.

I will say again that I agree the death penalty should only be used in cases where the murderer has confessed to the crime and/or there is video or some kind of proof that is indisputable. Or maybe like I said before that they should decriminalize drugs like marijuana so that we can save room in prison for the real criminals. That is a solution that has actually been proven to work.

"Most prisoners are from the poorest areas of the US, they are uneducated, impoverished and that can drive some people to do things. What needs to change is education in these poorer states, get to that problem there will be less of a problem in prisons. They also need to look at gang culture, which again happens in the poorer areas."

Ha,..Yeah, you're solution is to just fix the school system and continue the war on gangs?,..you know,..that old easy task. Good one. You sound like you have never been out in the real world,..and never experienced these parts of life that you feel you're an expert on.




"Yeah,. Well,..you know that's just like,..uh.. your opinion man"

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I never said I was an expert, though you clearly claim to be, and no I have never been to prison, or know anyone who has been to prison because I do not believe in breaking laws and have had the privilege of growing up in an upper class society, i'm so sorry I am not living in the slums. Doesn't mean I cannot look at the problem in the world and see whats wrong, and one of the biggest problems is education.
America has a huge problem with even the basic education for many of the impoverished in society and it's just not good enough, a lot of these crimes would simply not happen if these people did not live in such abject poverty.
Unlike you instead of just getting rid of a problem I think it needs to be looked at. Why not take the millions and millions of taxpayers dollars used on committing these executions to tackle more important things, and yes I do agree smaller convictions should be thrown out to save prison space and on courtroom spending. The punishment for these crimes is the loss of freedom, the right to do at will, that for me is punishment enough, murder is not punishment, it's barbarity.

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This is fantastic. You have never been to prison or know anybody who's been to prison because you have had the privilege of living in an upper class society, and you don't live in the slums?( Laughing out loud at your ignorant remark) I dont live in the slums either, I'm middle class, never been to prison. However I do know several people who have been to prison, including friends I grew up with and my cousin. Hold on,.....wait for it,....they're from solid middle class families too,....holy *beep* that must blow your mind huh? You sound like a stuck up, clueless woman who needs to stop watching so much television and maybe try to lower yourself to talk to people who don't have it as good as you. You might learn something, but until then, you should probably stop talking and do more listening. Poor people do not equal criminals and there are plenty of people with money committing crimes, and/or that grew up with money. The fact that you tried to separate yourself from criminals based on money says a lot about you.

"Yeah,. Well,..you know that's just like,..uh.. your opinion man"

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I am sure you are middle class.

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I'm not sure what that means, except just validates everything I said about you. Good job!


"Yeah,. Well,..you know that's just like,..uh.. your opinion man"

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You have pretty much summed up yourself as well, enjoy your lovely life, and your oh so lovely family.

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I will, and you enjoy that lovely bubble that you live in. Hopefully one day you will put down your remote and go outside.

"Yeah,. Well,..you know that's just like,..uh.. your opinion man"

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I do this thing called read books, they might be a new concept to you. You are the only one who keeps banging on about remotes and TV, I guess it's the only medium in which you seem to think you can gain knowledge from.
I am not sure what "bubble"(in your eyes ) I live in, but yes a good job and good family and friends does equal a good life.

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Oh, well it's not your job or family, because I have those things too and Im very thankful for them. However, it's the bubble where you sit inside and look at everybody else that is out there. It's called a metaphor and I'm glad you read, I'm sure they have a book on it.

"Yeah,. Well,..you know that's just like,..uh.. your opinion man"

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Sarcasm really isn't your bag.

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Clever.

"Yeah,. Well,..you know that's just like,..uh.. your opinion man"

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I am from the UK, where we used to have the death penalty, but abolished finally in the 1950s.


I question the judgement of anyone from the UK who possesses the arrogant belief that the British justice system is any better than the one in the U.S. I lived in the UK for six years and that experience sadly convinced me that the death penalty is necessary. Even if it is never or (hopefully) rarely used, it should be on the books.

In the UK, I noticed that there was a great deal of public anxiety about British sentences for extreme crimes, in part because they were wildly inconsistent and in part because even long sentences often are not fully carried out, with even serial killers or child murderers being allowed back onto the streets in ten or fifteen years, or even less (Americans, consider how you'd feel if the entire Manson Family had been released in the early 80s). Meanwhile, a scared old man in an isolated homestead who had been robbed previously was given a life sentence for shooting two intruders (who happened to be Travelers-Gypsies), killing one and paralyzing another, because the court determined that said intruders *might* not have hurt him. I guess, in the UK, you're not a truly evil and pitiless murderer unless you're acting in self-defense. This kind of thing seems to happen a great deal in countries without an equally extreme punishment like the death penalty on the books for extreme crimes. Do many countries with the death penalty abuse it? Absolutely. But I would argue that simply abolishing the death penalty does not improve one's justice system at all.

In addition, there's the Jamie Bolger case, in which vigilante anger and threatened mob justice (so much for the Brits being more civilized) motivated the court to make the questionable decision to release Bolger's killers once they reached their majority and give them entirely new identities--essentially, a new lease on life--with no oversight or guarantee to the public that they were now safe to be out on the streets. And that's not even getting into the likes of Harold Shipman and Beverly Allitt, or Ian Stewart and Myra Hindley, or Fred and Rose West. You certainly have your lion's share of monsters in the UK, for all of having a fifth of the U.S.'s population. Some even go on for decades, completely unremarked and unpunished.

Not to mention, how many times have they talked about releasing some psychopath from the execrable Ashworth Hospital because the European Union has deemed that "incurably insane" patients shouldn't be confined longterm? That's on top of the fact that in the U.S., you can only be committed for 72 hours' psychiatric hold unless you present a clear danger to yourself and/or others (which is very hard to prove), but it really isn't that hard to get someone "sectioned" for 30 days in the UK, even if they aren't presenting as mentally ill. Even so, in the UK, if a genuinely dangerous patient decides to leave, there's not a whole lot the staff can do to stop him or her.

So, don't go selling the rest of us a line about how wonderfully superior and civilized Britain's justice and psychiatric systems are, just because you don't have the death penalty.

Innsmouth Free Press http://www.innsmouthfreepress.com

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I do see a trend however, the more religious a country claims to be, more often the higher the rate of execution, and for a higher number of offences.

This country is no longer religious. They even took "In God we trust" off the new batch of coins they just made. It's a free for all now.

Quick question a year later: Did you ever have a family member or friend who was murdered? The person who murdered my friend just got out of jail after 30 years. I hope he doesn't do it again. I am against the death penalty mainly for the innocent person reason. However, I just hope this murderer doesn't decide to kill someone else.

edit: mistake

Life is Like a Dream

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"I do see a trend however, the more religious a country claims to be, more often the higher the rate of execution, and for a higher number of offences. This is certainly true of the western world."

I wouldn't sell communist China short.

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Here's what H.L. Mencken had to say...



"Of the arguments against capital punishment that issue from uplifters, two are commonly heard most often, to wit:

That hanging a man (or frying him or gassing him) is a dreadful business, degrading to those who have to do it and revolting to those who have to witness it.

That it is useless, for it does not deter others from the same crime.
The first of these arguments, it seems to me, is plainly too weak to need serious refutation. All it says, in brief, is that the work of the hangman is unpleasant. Granted. But suppose it is? It may be quite necessary to society for all that. There are, indeed, many other jobs that are unpleasant, and yet no one thinks of abolishing them--that of the plumber, that of the soldier, that of the garbage-man, that of the priest hearing confessions, that of the sand-hog, and so on. Moreover, what evidence is there that any actual hangman complains of his work? I have heard none. On the contrary, I have known many who delighted in their ancient art, and practiced it proudly.

In the second argument of the abolitionists there is rather more force, but even here, I believe, the ground under them is shaky. Their fundamental error consists in assuming that the whole aim of punishing criminals is to deter other (potential) criminals--that we hang or electrocute A simply in order to so alarm B that he will not kill C. This, I believe, is an assumption which confuses a part with the whole. Deterrence, obviously, is one of the aims of punishment, but it is surely not the only one. On the contrary, there are at least half a dozen, and some are probably quite as important. At least one of them, practically considered, is more important. Commonly, it is described as revenge, but revenge is really not the word for it. I borrow a better term from the late Aristotle: katharsis. Katharsis, so used, means a salubrious discharge of emotions, a healthy letting off of steam. A school-boy, disliking his teacher, deposits a tack upon the pedagogical chair; the teacher jumps and the boy laughs. This is katharsis. What I contend is that one of the prime objects of all judicial punishments is to afford the same grateful relief (a) to the immediate victims of the criminal punished, and (b) to the general body of moral and timorous men.

These persons, and particularly the first group, are concerned only indirectly with deterring other criminals. The thing they crave primarily is the satisfaction of seeing the criminal actually before them suffer as he made them suffer. What they want is the peace of mind that goes with the feeling that accounts are squared. Until they get that satisfaction they are in a state of emotional tension, and hence unhappy. The instant they get it they are comfortable. I do not argue that this yearning is noble; I simply argue that it is almost universal among human beings. In the face of injuries that are unimportant and can be borne without damage it may yield to higher impulses; that is to say, it may yield to what is called Christian charity. But when the injury is serious Christianity is adjourned, and even saints reach for their sidearms. It is plainly asking too much of human nature to expect it to conquer so natural an impulse. A keeps a store and has a bookkeeper, B. B steals $700, employs it in playing at dice or bingo, and is cleaned out. What is A to do? Let B go? If he does so he will be unable to sleep at night. The sense of injury, of injustice, of frustration will haunt him like pruritus. So he turns B over to the police, and they hustle B to prison. Thereafter A can sleep. More, he has pleasant dreams. He pictures B chained to the wall of a dungeon a hundred feet underground, devoured by rats and scorpions. It is so agreeable that it makes him forget his $700. He has got his katharsis. The same thing precisely takes place on a larger scale when there is a crime which destroys a whole community’s sense of security. Every law-abiding citizen feels menaced and frustrated until the criminals have been struck down--until the communal capacity to get even with them, and more than even, has been dramatically demonstrated. Here, manifestly, the business of deterring others is no more than an afterthought. The main thing is to destroy the concrete scoundrels whose act has alarmed everyone, and thus made everyone unhappy. Until they are brought to book that unhappiness continues; when the law has been executed upon them there is a sigh of relief. In other words, there is katharsis.

I know of no public demand for the death penalty for ordinary crimes, even for ordinary homicides. Its infliction would shock all men of normal decency of feeling. But for crimes involving the deliberate and inexcusable taking of human life, by men openly defiant of all civilized order--for such crimes it seems, to nine men out of ten, a just and proper punishment. Any lesser penalty leaves them feeling that the criminal has got the better of society--that he is free to add insult to injury by laughing. That feeling can be dissipated only by a recourse to katharsis, the invention of the aforesaid Aristotle. It is more effectively and economically achieved, as human nature now is, by wafting the criminal to realms of bliss.

The real objection to capital punishment doesn’t lie against the actual extermination of the condemned, but against our brutal American habit of putting it off so long. After all, every one of us must die soon or late, and a murderer, it must be assumed, is one who makes that sad fact the cornerstone of his metaphysic. But it is one thing to die, and quite another thing to lie for long months and even years under the shadow of death. No sane man would choose such a finish. All of us, despite the Prayer Book, long for a swift and unexpected end. Unhappily, a murderer, under the irrational American system, is tortured for what, to him, must seem a whole series of eternities. For months on end he sits in prison while his lawyers carry on their idiotic buffoonery with writs, injunctions, mandamuses, and appeals. In order to get his money (or that of his friends) they have to feed him with hope. Now and then, by the imbecility of a judge or some trick of juridic science, they actually justify it. But let us say that, his money all gone, they finally throw up their hands. Their client is now ready for the rope or the chair. But he must still wait for months before it fetches him.

That wait, I believe, is horribly cruel. I have seen more than one man sitting in the death-house, and I don’t want to see any more. Worse, it is wholly useless. Why should he wait at all? Why not hang him the day after the last court dissipates his last hope? Why torture him as not even cannibals would torture their victims? The common answer is that he must have time to make his peace with God. But how long does that take? It may be accomplished, I believe, in two hours quite as comfortably as in two years. There are, indeed, no temporal limitations upon God. He could forgive a whole herd of murderers in a millionth of a second. More, it has been done."

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"Psychopaths are considered to be entirely sane, just incapable of feeling empathy."

Frighteningly, that's what psychopaths and people with aspbergers/autism have in common; both lack the ability to feel empathy, ride unicorns and slay fire-breathing dragons. Scary, ins't it?

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onvinyl u digusting idiot. its people w ur mentallity who release this garbage bk to the street. execution is the only way obv.

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Nope, psychopathy is not a mental disorder, it is an emotional condition, and it is not something that should be treated as anything that he could not help. A psychopath is simply an evil person and a killer and should be put to death for what he did (which, thankfully, he was). No one who would come into contact with him would have been safe as long as he breathed air.

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They attempted to psychologically treat the serial killer Edmund Kemper at Atascadero State Hospital after he murdered both his grandparents at 15 years old. All that did was teach him how to be a better killer and then they let him loose to go on and kill many more people, including his own mother and her friend.

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Agreed. The eye's - it's chilling how you can somehow identify that "foreign" look . Michael Perry was most definitely a psychopath.

http://yfrog.com/jcannagj
You talk so much yet have so little to say..

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@ f_elip

You wrote: 'It's absurd asking good people to spend even more money on criminals"

Maybe you don't know it, but pursuing capital punishment costs many times per individual than the costs of incarceration, rehabilitation, or, in the case of mental illness, treatment.

Consider the following. "Each death penalty case in Texas costs taxpayers about $2.3 million. That is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years." [source: deathpenaltyinfo.org]

Mind you, according to the source those numbers are at least a decade old so I presume the costs are even higher. So if, as you've decided, it's a matter of expense to taxpayers, why not spend half (or one third) of the amount to actually help a human being rather than millions to kill them?

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I'm not quite sure if a person like this can be helped. 10 years to comprehend that you brutally murdered 3 people, and 10 years to realise the hell you have put their families through.

And his last words were "I forgive you for this atrocity"

10 long years to come to terms with how low you really are, and he hadn't changed one little bit. He was as aggressive and stupid as he was the day he commited the murders.

I say stupid, because he clearly was a dumb person.

What use would be studying this person? Do you think psychiatrists and police officers will be able to predict murders by making this monster healthy? What is he going to do, become a new man, go around to schools and tell children not to murder people? There would be only one person who would benefit from him transforming himself into a better human being.

Michael Perry.

Put these creatures down. They have lost their right to a life.

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Thank you for that voice of reason, ThomasAAnderson. I was thinking exactly the same thing.

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Don't forget about Burkett, either. Burkett is equally if not more culpable, and probably the one who was the "mastermind." Look how socially adept he is: he managed to attract and marry a woman from behind bars. He's physically much larger than Perry and controlled Perry's living arrangements by giving him a place to sleep. He was physically and psychologically the "leader" figure of their friendship.

Even he wouldn't deny he plastered the stolen car with his nickname "Gauge" (for 12 gauge) and went to a bar to show off his car-- the car that 3 people died for. Depraved indifference. He either committed the murders himself or, at any time, could've stopped Perry.

And as for eyes, I thought Burkett's eyes were quite cold and manipulative. When he was asked a question about the crime, He glances away in hesitation: that micro-delay suggests to me deception. Someone who speaks the truth, just tells you the truth. Someone who's deceptive has to recall the story first, then recites it.

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I got exactly the same feeling, skat1140. I'm surprised to learn that Herzog seemed to have been impacted so much more by Perry than Burkett, if whatever scraps we saw were any indication of who and what each of those men truly are. I'm not a film director, nor am I a psychiatrist (BA in psychology & sociology, though, and a nursing student, hoping to specialize in psychiatry...which I suppose is why this topic interests me so much!), but I couldn't help imagining myself speaking to both guys through that glass...and Burkett pinged my "depraved" button even more than Perry did. (To be clear, I found them both thoroughly repulsive and their acts horrifying; I just got even more of a "danger" vibe from Burkett, for many of the reasons you stated.)


I can see, in some twisted way, why Perry got the death penalty whereas Burkett was spared, but those micro-expressions that you mentioned really signaled a lot to me as well. Perry had some odd moments, too - his delayed response, lack of emotion and then total change of subject back to himself when Herzog gave his condolences about the death of Perry's father were especially chilling - but of the two, Burkett just came off as the greater of two evils, IMHO. And so, while I understand the legal imbalance there, I don't fully comprehend how/why Herzog could have those interviews, and then go back over them repeatedly in the editing process, and come away saying that Perry "was the most dangerous of anyone" he'd ever met. There must've been something he saw that we weren't afforded in the final cut.




~ http://prettyh.blogspot.com/ ~

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I was intrigued by this case after viewing this documentary so I have done some further reading on my own. You may be interested in reading the article below which, if the reporting is accurate, may be why Herzog stated he was "the most dangerous of anyone I ever met". I am not trained in psychology either, but from what I have read, true psychopaths have no feeling, no remorse, no empathy for their victims, which is how Perry came across to me as well. That may be the reason Herzog found him so scary. He appeared to be a harmless, smiling young man who continued to proclaim his innocence up to the time he was executed, but could anyone really know what was hidden in his mind?

To me, he had disassociated himself completely with the crime in his mind even when confronted with the hard evidence against him. I am not saying sometimes investigations are botched and I could be wrong, but I believe he had much more involvement with this crime - certainly more than he himself believed, and maybe even more than he was sentenced for.

While I agree that Burkett looked cold and unfeeling, Perry was more scary if he did indeed commit these crimes since he came across as completely harmless - but might be capable of slitting your throat without any hesitation if he felt he could gain from it.

I personally feel they both should have gotten the death sentence, but apparently there were two sympathetic females on Burkett's panel who decided his fate. You cannot rehabilitate or cure someone from a mental disorder that allows them to commit crimes as callously as these two did.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/04/texas-death-row-werner-her zog

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I personally feel they both should have gotten the death sentence, but apparently there were two sympathetic females on Burkett's panel who decided his fate. You cannot rehabilitate or cure someone from a mental disorder that allows them to commit crimes as callously as these two did.


A mental disorder, so you are quite happy to murder someone who is mentally incapable or not 100% sane. Right.

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Absolutely, if they are a danger to society, as in being capable of committing a cold and brutal murder with no feeling or remorse.

You are trying to muddy the waters by confusing "mentally incapable" (your terminology, which covers a broad range of mental disorders) with "psychopathic" (my specific terminology). They are not the same.
There are people who are not "100% sane" who commit crimes, but understand and feel remorse for their actions.

I do not believe psychopaths can ever feel remorse or culpability in their crimes, therefore I do not believe they should ever be free at any time. You may feel safe living with these people, but I do not and it does not bother me at all that they are exterminated.

You will never convince me that the death penalty should not be upheld in heinous crimes such as these, so you may as well talk to yourself. We will just have to agree to disagree.

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I agree ignorance sadly sometimes can never be helped. I am just glad I don't live in an uncivilised, barbaric society.

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Yes, you are right. Your ignorance, sadly can not be helped. I am also glad you do not live here in my society.

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haha you have shown me exactly what I already knew lol.

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What is all this about "look into their eyes...you can tell they're lying/psychotic/etc."?

Do some of you really think that's a valid way to identify the true mental state of people? If so, why bother with trials and other courtroom methods like evidence and testimony? Just have a judge "look into their eyes" and bang his/her gavel with a verdict.

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@wildpeckinpah

i agree it's not probative to see a "look" in Perry's eyes. we, of course, know he committed 1-3 cold-blooded murder(s), so whatever look he gives we can attribute something to it. sure, i could see Perry wasn't at ease. (who isn't anxious, when you're going to be executed in 8 days?) but i didn't see the "dangerous look" that Herzog described. he was even kind of looked relaxed/engaging when he was reassuring himself about jesus/heaven/etc. again, Herzog only had 50 minutes with him, and we had less; if we had spent more time with him, we could've gotten a reliable vibe. as it was, i'm undecided, with Perry.

i thought Burkett's affect was much more that of a sociopath. he had a real cold look. when he was recounting his version of the case, he'd often pause first, a tell-tale sign of deception. Burkett's eyes were much more dangerous to me. uh, but, again, i know he committed 1-3 cold-blooded murder(s).

the thing is, neither of them really had the outright Charles Manson/Jim Jones/David Koresh/Imagonnakeelyou look. well, neither of them were bipolar/messianic/schizophrenic. if anything, they seemed normal, kind of.

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[deleted]

I agree with this sentiment. Perry seemed like a jittery kid with a very low IQ. I did not see a sociopath but rather a dumb kid who was about to pay the ultimate price.

Burkett was very scary to me. He behaved more like a sociopath. Cold, hard, brutal.

I thought Burkett's father was portrayed in a rather sympathetic manner; however, if one googles him they will find that one of his crimes involved a child. Repulsive.






Even if it means me taking a chubby, I will suck it up!

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Actually "looking into their eyes", observing body movements, speech patterns, and general body language is a valid way in which psychologists evaluate criminals for the purposes of court trials. As a way for the judge to decide whether a person should be placed in prison or on probation. Many courts and judges use these types of evaluations on criminals (they also include the criminal's personal history and background in conjunction with the psychologist's written report of their sessions).

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[deleted]

@ finn "As a way for the judge to decide whether a person should be placed in prison or on probation"

I'm calling you on that. What court system in the western world makes judgements based on anything related to the accused's eyes? Source/proof, please.

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It's really sad that that piece of sh!t is the center of a documentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rToPNSZ7T1U

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Do you remotely understand the purpose of documentary film?

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