MovieChat Forums > Great Expectations (2012) Discussion > Something is probably wrong...

Something is probably wrong...


..with a dramatisation of Great Expectations, when Miss Havisham is prettier than Estella, and Pip is more gorgeous than either.


Call me Ishmael...

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lol so true, I rarely dislike my beebs period pieces, but this is bad

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I'm still enjoying it but Pip is a little too perfume advert pretty for my liking. The scene where Miss H calls him to the house in order to taunt him with Estella's beauty didn't work IMO for that very reason (if anyone was taunted it must have been she!).

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It would work if she was charming (Estelle) but she plays her with utterly no charisma, and she is ridiculously plain, compared to Booth. Both have clearly not read the book as he has no clue how to do their roles. I still think Booth is a good actor just maybe not in period roles. I dread to think what his Romeo will be like....

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I rather like her. Surely she's meant to have strong features - given Estella's parentage, she's not going to be china-doll-like - and the actress does have beautiful eyes.

I would say it's very difficult to judge whether they have read the book or not - they seem to me to have a pretty clear understanding of the roles, as corrupted children and the adults who are the product of this corruption. Of course, Pip has a way to go before he understands himself at all well, despite Joe trying to tell him. Estella has something like the same journey towards self-knowledge to make. Both have pretty severe lessons to learn yet.

Not sure why someone wouldn't be able to play a period role? Too modern in their sensibilities, you mean?

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Well, nearly all the Dickens has been knocked out of the dialogue, so perhaps it's that which is concerning you?

and out the plot as well. It's just not a very good adaptation. I find both extremely dull and wooden. Booth was exceptional in the boy george biopic, but in this he is terrible. As another poster put it's like watching fanfiction. I do find the cinematography beautiful and the dulled colour palette but for the most I think it's terrible 1999 version is far, far superior

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Isn't it subjective how attractive the cast members are?

I agree that Gillian Anderson is more attractive than Vanessa Kirby in real life (not that Kirby is unattractive). In the role of Miss Havisham I find Anderson suitably damaged and offputting though.

I think Booth and Kirby are both struggling a little with their roles in this version.

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Maybe you read a different version to me? But this adap is so far removed from the original it could be a different story, I find Anderson's Havisham rather amateurish if i'm honest, she is trying something new, and I see what she is trying to do but it doesn't work for me, I couldn't pinpoint it until another poster mentioned Ophelia, and that ran true for me. Everyone sees literature in certain ways, as my lecturer used to say there is no right way to look at literature, only what you see in it yourself, this is how I perceive it and i'm really disappointed as I was really looking forward to it. Hopefully the Edwin Drood won't "rape" the original story quite so much as this.

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There is no "different version" to be read, apart from the ending. I have read the book several times, though it is a long time since I have been the one being lectured to.

In what ways is it far removed from the original? The key elements of the story are all absolutely present and correct so far. This is not a matter of personal response to story at all - it is simply a matter of fact. If you are speaking of tone, or of intent of the original, I would argue that this version keeps very closely to that too, especially in the cinematography and set-dressing, not to mention the costumes. This is not rape, not at all. I think Dickens, given his interest in the theatre would be delighted to know that his books continue to inspire adaptations which are thoughtful and provocative.

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I was being sarcastic.
they have left out many integral characters, and have changed several parts of the novel, I have to say I am very much a puritan when it comes to adaptations, and this is pretty far removed. In my eyes it is rape, as I say this is only MY interpretation of what is a pretty average adaptation. Still, at least it's not as bad as the recent Jane Eyre, which really was awful.

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Perhaps, in the minute it took you to read my comment and reply yourself, you didn't quite appreciate what I was asking. I recognise your strictness regarding the book, and would appreciate your list of those major elements of the book you feel could not have been omitted. Moving from book to film is always going to require some kind of compromises, given that they are different media. What, for you, is the most annoying element missed out in this adaptation.

And yes, we are all only giving our own views. That's the nature of the beast, as it were! But discussions of this kind are always a useful way of discovering why we think as we do.

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I have, as yet to see the second episode as the first one irked me so much but from the first episode I missed the graveyard scene, I find that to be extremely important, I found Mrs Joe far too pleasant, same with Pumblechook, I always imagined Orlick as a burly stocky man, not a weedy little boy, they completely missed out Biddy, who is an integral character for the plot, they removed the stealing of wine and food, which is also an integral part of the story. that's just the first 10 minutes. It is not like its a two hour film, it is a miniseries with plenty enough time to look at these major plot failures.
Basically, what the director has done is take away what makes a Dickens novel what it is. He uses obvious characters to create his almost "pantomimeesque" visions, I see none of that in this at all.
As I say I preferred the 1999 version, was far more in keeping with the real novel.

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{Possible spoilers}

I'm just a humble English professor, but I feel I must take exception to your claiming this adaptation included all the key elements of the novel. First and foremost, leaving out as pivotal a character as Biddy already calls this production into question. By cobbling together all the scheming Pockets into the benign Matthew Pocket's family, the production commits another fatal error, given Matthew Pocket's later, important role in the story. The production unforgivably rushes the development of the novel's core relationships: among Pip, Miss Havisham and Estella; without that development, the story has a gaping void at its center that its woefully ignorant producers and writer fail to fill. Likewise, this adaptation plays fast and loose with the timing of Orlick's attack upon Mrs. Gargery, which happens while Joe is at the Three Jolly Bargemen smoking his pipe and Pip goes up-town to Satis House. Having Mrs. Joe attacked while Pip and Joe are at Satis House cannot be justified; in order for the narrative to remain in a logical story arc, Dickens' timetable should be followed. Pip is already a young man who has asked for a half-holiday to visit Miss Havisham on her birthday, which is also the day she was jilted; Orlick also demands a half-holiday, which in turn provokes the wrath of Mrs. Joe, who has a heated exchange with her husband's journeyman. Joe springs to her aid by punching Orlick, then dismissing him. Therein lies the impetus for Orlick's attack upon the shrewish Mrs. Gargery. The mishandling of those scenes made the adaptation's narrative irritatingly clumsy. Too many of the important interactions appear off-camera; this production provides a fine example of why good writers must show, rather than merely tell. In just the first episode, the producers managed to alienate those of its viewers who know the novel.

The costumes were also not as well-done as catpetal-1 claims. Miss Havisham should wear flowers in her hair and jewels upon her neck and hands; she should also have a veil. Her wedding dress was supposed to include satin, silk and lace. She actually had one shoe on, and her other foot was stockinged. The white of those garments should appear yellow with age. Given all the mistakes in this production, it seems rather presumptuous for anyone to claim Dickens would have been delighted by an adaptation that was anything but "thoughtful and provocative," other than to force one to realize how low British productions have sunk.

Put puppy mills out of business: never buy dogs from pet shops!

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Thank you, greenegg.

I think it might be useful to comment that I made those remarks after seeing the first episode. I didn't continue with the adaptation and still have yet to see the third episode. I believe you could conclude from that that I came to revise my view and would, at least in some points, agree that this was a clumsy rather than a bold adaptation, with too much omitted. I would always ditch Orlick in favour of Biddy, not the other way about, if one is trying to find the heart of the story.

So I don't believe I was being presumptious - merely stating an opinion I held at the time. But you are, of course, free to comment about that in any way you please.

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Oh I haven't read any versions of this one. This is the third adaptation of the story I've seen though. Does that exclude me from discussing it?

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I would always encourage people to read novels as they are far more worthwhile and leave your own imagination to steer the way, they also are far more in depth than a miniseries or a film.

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I'm with the OP - Estella is very plain and I don't get why all of male Society is supposed to be gaga over her. Gillian Anderson (even as Miss H) is far more attractive than the actress playing the apparently beguiling beauty.

I am the Walking Dude.

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You *would* would you? I'm surprised you didn't use the royal "we" in your encouragement of telling us mere mortals what to think.

Something is probably wrong ..with a dramatisation of Great Expectations, when Miss Havisham is prettier than Estella, and Pip is more gorgeous than either.


Could we kindly return to the topic at hand? I happen to agree with the OP that the casting is a bit off. Booth and the gal who plays Estella couldn't act their way out of a paper bag; not that I think either has even read the book given their blank characterizations. Gillian does a spooky, but finally over-the-top Havisham and puts either to shame. I don't think her preformance ought to have stolen limelight from the main characters (you'd call them protangonists, I'm sure), but that's exactly what's happened.






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I do read novels; haven't gotten around to this one yet though. I disagree with the generalisation that a novel is always more worthwhile or in depth than an adaptation. A great adaptation can complement or improve upon its source. The film version of Fight Club is better than Palahniuk's book. Road to Perdition is a far better film than its source material. Children of Men exceeds PD James' book.

Having seen the whole thing I agree that Pip and Estella could have been better cast. I honestly did like Gillian Anderson's Havisham though. Its a different take on the character to those I've seen but an interesting one.

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I see what she is trying to do but it doesn't work for me, I couldn't pinpoint it until another poster mentioned Ophelia, and that ran true for me.
When I thought about about it, I realised that my problem with the portrayal of Miss Havisham was that her ethereal, distracted dreaminess, her obsessive plucking at the skin of her own hand etc, all suggested a psychopathology that was inwardly directed, and that this Miss Havisham would harm herself rather than others. And that was certainly borne out by the way her death was played. No accident here, it is a simple act of self-immolation. Dramatically it worked rather well, but for me it underlined that Miss Havisham's cruelty and spite don't quite fit the character. Her mania seems too self-absorbed and too self-absorbing to allow her to be remotely concerned with the world about her, let alone capable of conniving and plotting to make Estella the instrument of her revenge. (Gillian Anderson did give the character more bite in the late scene where Pip challenges her regarding Estella's impending marriage. I wish she'd shown a bit more grit from the outset. But for me it was still too little too late.)

I must say I did rather like some parts of the final episode very much - especially after the messy second part. But I have the overwhelming sense that it isn't so much an adaptation of "Great Expectations" as a commentary on it - ie at one further remove - as if it's always striving for alternative strategies.


Call me Ishmael...

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Well I still like Anderson's Havisham and her friable human bitterness but I think the problem with this was that they did well with the key character analysis, Pocket, Magwitch, Estella, Orlick and so on but didn't connect them up. It's as if they wrote the characters names down on cards and spent all their time working on them in isolation so that what they ended up with was more of a album than an adaptation.

Whereas Dickens first and foremost needs a cast iron grip on the narrative thread.

I don't really think Dickens is Phelps' thing. The missing minor characters tell you that.

The film has Ken Dodd as Aged P. Now that was decision by someone who knows what Dickens is about.

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for me it was missing what makes Dickens, Dickens. Even with his harsh, depressing storylines he still adds a wit and an almost pantomime like quality to his stories and it was totally overlooked. I also believe missing out important characters impacted it greatly.

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...spent all their time working on them in isolation so that what they ended up with was more of a album than an adaptation.
Yes. I found it all strangely imbalanced; some parts of Dicken's narrative jettisoned (not without reason) but others developed to create a sort of parallel version of the story. For example, Drummle's debauchery and nastiness is much amplified and Estella is here more or less coerced into marrying him, both by Miss Havisham and a gratuitously vicious Mrs Brandley. None of that is in Dickens and none of it gives depth to what Dickens wrote; it's a different story entirely.


Call me Ishmael...

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OP: Spot on! That about sums it up! :D

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Some of the criticism can be explained by the fact "beauty" was certainly different in past eras. The young actress is pretty, but we expect Estella to knock our socks off, so to speak. Perhaps in Dicken's era, the description of "beauty" was different and also encompassed ones upbringing, manners,etc.
In more modern times, we've have been bombarded with visual images of "beauty" and what's accepted as attractiveness, which has narrowed our attitudes toward what/who is attractive. IMHO. Look at older paintings from eras ago and those beauties may not be considered so now, although not ugly, we have changed views for the most part. Think about it and maybe it explains some issues on her appearance.

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Think about it and maybe it explains some issues on her appearance.
In truth I don't think it does, because this Estella isn't beautiful even by the standards of the time: she's rather thin and scrawny in the modern anorexic fashion rather than healthily curved in the Victorian manner. The hair and costume certainly departments serve her very badly, what with ill-fitting gowns and demented drug-addict hairstyles:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/images/stories/large/2012/03/29/Great+ Expectations1-590x435.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv2vybxVfC1qa7696o2_250.jpg

But, worse than all this, the poor creature has truly terrible deportment, a graceless galumphing gait that is totally inappropriate for someone who had been sent to a finishing school in France to acquire poise and refinement. Not a chance.


Call me Ishmael

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Ohhh funny!! I kept thinking, "He's a male version of Keira Knightley! Waaay too pretty!"

Taking back IMDB message boards....one ignored Troll at a time.

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