Fascinating subject


Ginger Baker I knew from Cream who are one of my favourite bands of the 60's. I didn't know much else about him but had heard of his notoriety when this documentary was premeried at the LIFF in 2012. Saw the film today and it's very well done. I'm not sure what I make of Jay Bulger, the film maker who appears a few times. If he's as irritating on a regular basis as he was in the film then I'm not surprised that Mr Baker was angry with him.

Anyway, the film is fascinating because Ginger is fascinating. If he hadn't found his vocation as a drummer than he would have either died from drugs or have been locked away in mental institutions. He is mad. Like some mad people he is inspired and creatively a genius and watching him drum was visceral and thrilling. I loved the footage of Cream and wish I had been able to see them live circa 66/7/8.

Otherwise I felt quite sad for Ginger Baker. It seemed to me that there were lots of life lessons that enable maturity which he had not learned. When he spoke of saying goodbye to his father aged 4 and about the contents of a letter his father had written for him age 14, I felt very sad.

Compelling subject, well composed documentary with some very interesting interviews. Highly recommended.

Keep silent unless what you are going to say is more important than silence.

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I saw the film at LIFF 2012, though I missed the first performance when Baker and the director appeared onstage for a QandA. Apparently it was quite eventful with Baker on good form.

Ginger Baker was angry with almost everybody, he was notoriously antisocial. The director didn't do anything wrong it was Baker just being mean spirited, but he tended to take his anger out on everybody. The film mentions the time during a live performance when Baker hit Jack Bruce in the face and then proceeded to kick him, at one point pulling out a knife. This was just Baker being Baker.

He only started taking drugs when he became a musician and the amount and variety of drugs he took didn't help his mental state. If he hadn't become a musician I don't know what would have become of him.

I would have loved to have seen Cream back in the 60s but I did see them at the reunion concert at the Royal Albert Hall in 2005 and they were fantastic, Ginger was in great form.

I felt sad for Ginger because he had no friends due to his antisocial nature. Many of those interviewed, including his son, said he was a great musician but a horrible person. Quite a damning indictment.

Great film though.



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Thanks for your reply. Rumour has it that Jay Bulger stormed off stage in the post-film Q/A after he and Ginger got into an argument. Wish I'd been there to see it.

I know it's very easy to place everything on Ginger and he does not seem a nice person, the film is testament to that. But for a not very nice person he seems able to attract all sorts to him from girlfriends and wives to musician buddies. Even Jack Bruce was willing to play with him again in Cream and then years later at the reunion you attended (lucky you!) But I found some of the docu Qs irritating and it was easy to anticipate that Ginger would get annoyed. I'd like to know if the Qs were agreed in advance because if so then Ginger's annoyance is Ginger being Ginger. If they were scripted by Bulger in advance of meeting Ginger then it might be Ginger being Ginger. BUT if those Qs were decided spontaneously after Bulger had become acquainted with Ginger then ... I think there was intended provocation at times from Bulger towards Ginger.

There were two moments in the film, (where Bulger made a fuss of meeting Ginger again, in South Africa, and then much later when Bulger is leaving he's attacked by Ginger and then decides to see him eye-to-eye), that I found a bit inauthentic on Bulger's part. Might have been just me.

The comments from Ginger's children were the most damning (and sad) indictments.

I'm not trying to break your heart,
I'm just trying hard not to fall apart

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[deleted]

Cool! Glad you enjoyed it. What did you make of Ginger? And did you like the music?

Why do you refuse to remember me?

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I believe Bruce and Baker are attached at the hip as 'the other two' in Cream, y'know, in the general public's eyes.

Sad really, as they were both far more mature musicians by the time of Cream than Eric was, bit there you go. Eric, for all his issues with 'mainstream music', found his niche in it. Bruce and Baker never did.

Jack's Cream money will never stop coming. He wrote most of the stuff. I believe Jack loves Ginger, but fears him. In Jack's perfect world, he doesn't have to 'fight' for his 'off music'. With Ginger, because of the long term nature of the relationship, Jack has to fight.

Clearly a 'love/hate'. They both know they play incredibly well together, and even inspire eachother. But, behind the scenes, it's a war.

I understand, BTW. I have a good friend who's not talking to me right now. He's a drummer, I'm a bassist. We are both 'Alpha's'. Our relationship was never the same after we played in a band together. I think we played well, but rehearsals were an effin nightmare, and that's being kind.

But? I love the guy, period.

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That's a good point about Eric Clapton being accepted in mainstream music in a way that neither of the other two were.

What do you mean by 'off music'?

Interesting that you have a personal identification with the Bruce-Baker conflict. From what you write it sounds as though your drummer was like Baker!

Why do you refuse to remember me?

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That's a good point about Eric Clapton being accepted in mainstream music in a way that neither of the other two were.


Well, it's very true. The closest Baker ever got after Cream was Blind Faith, which was a Clapton/Winwood project. It sort of resembled Traffic, and didn't last very long.

What do you mean by 'off music'?


Well, this could take a long time to explain (my opinion of it, anyway). Generally speaking, pop music is driven by 'hooks'. Simply put, a 'hook' is a pleasant melody line capable of sticking in ones head. Pop Music tends to repeat these 'hooks' in certain places where the mind seems to expect them to be. This is 'song writing craft', so to speak. Depending on whether it's standard rock (verse-chorus-verse-chorus-middle 8-chorus-fade would be an example), or Jazz (A-A-B-A), certain genre 'rules' become standard.

Jack Bruce's writing tends to ignore these, um, I'll call them 'patterns'. He writes hooks, but gives them very little weight in song structure. Even a very accessible (or listenable structured) song of his, "Themes From An Imaginary Western", has a 'different' type 'turnaround' in it going from the chorus back to the verse. It's very melodic, but not very 'traditional'. Jack Bruce is a very challenging musician, and I mean that in a good way.

Interesting that you have a personal identification with the Bruce-Baker conflict. From what you write it sounds as though your drummer was like Baker!


He was difficult. He considered himself a drummer, but not a musician. He liked aggressive music, and had a unique (in a good way) sound. When we would rehearse stuff, he always wanted to run rehearsal. He really didn't know how to break anything down, and would get frustrated when I did. And angry. Very, very angry!! LOL.

When he would describe the band to others, he would condescendingly refer to me as "the musician", LOL.

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Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense and I'm wondering what songs I like that may not follow a typical pattern.

I always thought drummers were chilled out people. Obviously not! :)

Why do you refuse to remember me?

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Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense and I'm wondering what songs I like that may not follow a typical pattern.

I always thought drummers were chilled out people. Obviously not! :)


Well, Radiohead is a band in recent memory who wrote conventional 'hooks', but didn't necessarily 'repeat them' where typical rock format feels they should go.

The 'progressive rock' bands of the early 70's threw format out the window often. But it was fashionable' to do so back then.

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Well that's not all that amazing. Plenty of a******* attract women, wives, fellow musicians if they're talented enough, have charisma, fame, MONEY, notoriety, etc. It doesn't mean you're a decent human being. Some women love guys who treat them like crap. They want to redeem them some way or see them as a challenge and it feeds into their fantasy/ego/immaturity/lack of self-respect whatever. Course some are in it just for the money. His 2nd wife bailed out ASAP when the money dried up and dumped his ass real fast for a much younger guy to the glee of his son and daughter who saw it as appropriate comeuppance.

As for the musicians, later on you hear that nobody, NOBODY wanted to play with him. So much so that he had to place an ad in some musician paper asking for work.

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Poppy,

Cream was also one of my favorites of the sixties bands, and I also loved Blind Faith. But I must admit I did not follow Baker's post BF career much. So part of what made the film great was how informative it was in that regard.

I did happen to see them in New York in 2005, which was great btw, so it was sad to hear Baker blew all that money. What a doof, even if so talented.

Oh well, nobody's perfect, not even rock's greatest drummer ever.

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You were very lucky to see the reunited Cream. I was very familiar with them and Blind Faith, but I knew little about Mr. Baker's later career. Now I shall seek out those releases.

And yes, he is far from perfect, but it's easy enough for me to leave all that behind when I listen to the music – at least for the most part.

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I did happen to see them in New York in 2005, which was great btw, so it was sad to hear Baker blew all that money. What a doof, even if so talented.
You were lucky. Since the film's release and my post Jack Bruce has died, which means there could never be another get together however unlikely or remote this would be. I agree that Ginger is a doof. I think he's mentally unwell and only drumming has kept him on the side of functioning sane.

I know the name Blind Faith but I'm not familiar with their music. I'll check them out.
A bird sings and the mountain's silence deepens.

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"I think he's mentally unwell ...."

Many comment about what a SOB he is but no one seems to comment on how he described his childhood. Besides loosing his dad he was beaten up, even tortured by local toughs. No doubt this contributed to his antisocial personality. He didn't have a father and didn't know how to be one himself. Most of us 'dads' didn't have a clue as to how to raise kids so we followed what are dads did with us and tried to soften some of the rough edges.
I don't think its hard at all to understand his personality given his history.

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