Besides Ginger Baker, I think I'd have to put in Carl Palmer from Emerson, Lake and Palmer. I wish he had been mentioned in the movie, and I wonder what Baker thinks of him (assuming he even knows who Palmer is!).
I saw ELP in concert in the 70's, and his drum solo (which I think can also be found on YouTube) was incredible.
Ginger Baker,Greatest Drummer, period.
shareGinger is on the short list, but the answer is Neil Peart.
shareBonham? Moon?
shareI'm with you on Moon.Guy was insane to watch (on what footage there is), let alone listening to him and imagining what you're hearing must look like.
shareWatch "The History of the Eagles" and hear what Joe Walsh has to say about Moon. Hilarious! Says Moon turned him from an eccentric to a full-on whacko.
A master of hotel room trashing, Walsh had to rise to Moon's level or risk losing his rock 'n' roll cred.
Will do. THX
shareLaughed my head off when Joe said what good pals he was with Moonie. As you say, two total nutters, but loads of fun!
shareFunny that an earlier post says Bonham and Moon were the best...Clapton scoffed at that suggestion in the movie.
shareNah, you misunderstood, I was throwing them in to the mix of top 5 drummers, I didnt mean they were the best.
shareAfter watching this documentary, it became clear (at least to me) why I always thought that Ginger Baker was the greatest rock drummer. All of the other great rock drummers are part of the rhythm section (with the bass player) of the band, but Ginger Baker goes far beyond that. His drum playing was a major part of much more than the rhythm section. It was as if he was able to fully actualize the drums as an instrument equal to any other, i.e. lead guitar, keyboards, etc. It seems to me that it is because he learned drums in the jazz milieu, not the rock world. There are drum solos in rock and roll, but to me, none come close to those of Ginger Baker.
shareWhat Clapton said was that Baker was the best all-round musician, in that he could write songs, compose, etc., as well as being a brilliant drummer. Clapton didn't put down either Moon or Bonham. Clapton is a very classy musician and most musicians don't put other musicians down...unless thet are Ginger Baker, that is.
shareJust like no one can agree on the best anything, I will simply say that it's Stewart Copeland for me.
shareI presume you to be a big police fan then as I couldn't consider him in even the top 20.
As you say, all about opinions.
Rock fans always drone on about Peart but can he swing? Nowhere near Baker's class IMHO.
People tend to go with drummers from their own generation anyway.
"Eternal is the warrior who finds beauty in his wounds"
Yes, it's fair to say I am/was a big Police fan. I just think Copeland is/was a breath of fresh air and did a lot of different stuff. Suffice to say I'm the only one I know who counts him as a favorite, not that I take surveys or anything. Most of the time when the subject does come up it's some guy screaming "NEAL PEART, MAN!" in my face. And I like Peart too. When I saw the Baker documentary I see his influence on Copeland, or at least I think I do, with Copeland's solo "The Rhythmatist" project in Africa and Copeland's "Orchestralli".
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Stewart Copeland is brilliant. I don't think I've ever heard a decent musician say otherwise.
The greatest? I don't live in such places. Anyways, I'm also with you on the "Neil Peart is God" crap. I wouldn't be surprised it drives Peart crazy.
I like Rush, have owned most of their catalogue (up to the mid 80's anyway), and have seen them multiple times, most recently less than a year ago. Peart and Lee, no question, are basically the marquee 'frontmen' in the band, even though Lifeson functions very well as 'lead guitarist'. The thing about Rush that is both good and bad? It's all written. All the spots, note for note. Which is great, and their fans love it. I think the closest thing they ever get to true improv is possibly when Lee is singing, either the verse or chorus, but I'll call it 'the vamp'.
Make no mistake....they are highly competent, world class musicians. But? They are more like an orchestra, playing note for note every night.
Baker is from the improv school, particularly jazz. He's doing something different out there every night.
As far as Bonham and Moon? I think Baker stated it well. Bonham had solid 'technique', Moon not so much.
But Moon was fast and an electrifying performer, and like his friend Ringo Starr, was the perfect fit for his band.
I'll never forget the first time I truly noticed Baker. I had been a Zep fan from 9 years old on. I was familiar with "Moby Dick" and thought Bonham was 'bar none', the best. Somehow I got my hands on "Fresh Cream", probably 7-8 years after it came out. When I heard "Toad" I thought, "this guy did everything Bonham did, only earlier". And one other thing. Baker played next to Jack Bruce, a very unique and challenging musician. Jack Bruce is what I call an 'out player'. His muse is not the common muse. The fact Baker fit so well with him (in spite of what he says), is remarkable.
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Ginger Baker is without question the greatest rock drummer, he was a huge influence on everybody that followed, drummers who were very good but never matched him. He differed from everybody else because he was at heart a jazz drummer and this showed in the drum battles he had with people like Art Blakey. He was well respected in the jazz community. Carl Palmer was great technically, but as Baker said about John Bonham "he couldn't swing, he couldn't swing a sack of s h i t". He was all speed over content. I was a big fan of ELP at one time but nowadays I can't understand what I saw in them. The same can't be said of Baker whose music shall live on.
The one thing you can say about Baker is that he did introduce the long drum solo. Which meant that every drummer, no matter how good they were, was doing it. I suppose it did allow the rest of the band to go down the pub.
benman46, I agree.
Although I have always owned the entire Cream catalog, they were never my favorite band. Not even in the top 30 for me, but I have to admit, Ginger was the most technically skilled drummer to enter the rock idiom. At least through the seventies. After that , I'd have to consider some of Zappa's drummers perhaps. But even they didn't swing as mercilessly as Ginger.
When I say technically skilled I mean: can play cleanly, creatively, fast and maintain great time and feel. Neither Peart nor Palmer have particularly good time or feel—they certainly don't groove and they both speed up and slow down all the time.
Bonham and Moon were both exciting players, but technically limited. They really weren't pressed to do much more by their respective bands, although there are stories about Page and Jones working extensively with Bonham to get him through more complex rhythms that were beyond his ken.
I'm not sure that Baker really qualifies as "the greatest ever" - there are SO many drummers out there who are just dynamite musicians, and especially now. Danny Carey, Gavin Harrison, Steve Gadd, Jeff Porcaro, John JR Robinson, Hal Blaine, Dave Weckl, Vinnie Colaiuta, David Garibaldi, etc, etc.
What I will concede to though is that even if he isn't necessarily "the greatest" from an ability/chops/musicianship standpoint, he was a great drummer nonetheless, and he was absolutely pivotal in his influence on all drummers who came after him. Most drummers today, whether they realize it or not, are influenced by him, either directly or indirectly, and that definitely puts him among the top of all time.
At points in the video, I thought his drumming was a bit lackluster - hitting too hard, a bit sloppy, etc. But, there were other moments of absolute brilliance - every musician waxes and wanes, and it's very difficult to maintain peak performance as a constant.
My name is Gladiator - Maximus Decimus Meridiusshare
Ginger WAS NOT a rock drummer. He was a JAZZ drummer as was mentioned many times in this flick and he introduced jazz sensibilities into rock music. I was surprised that he wasn't a fan of Louie Bellson who was sort of one of Ginger's contemporaries, (he was 14 years older) but in the jazz music world. Louie was the first guy to use the double bass drums. His drum solos are very similar to Ginger's and he was performing them well before the 60's when Ginger came onto the scene.
KS
While Ginger Baker was originally and overall still primarily a jazz drummer, he also played rock in several iterations, and there is no principle that says he should not be considered a rock drummer as well. Which he was.
I think he was the greatest, and I think to be the greatest you must be able to do three things well. One is be influential. Baker influenced everyone who followed him, and really more so than any other rock drummer. While someone like Bonham was a huge influence on drummers in rock bands that followed, that influence was more limited, to bands in the hard rock to metal end of the spectrum. Baker influenced everyone.
Second is technical ability. Baker had the basics of technique and timing, but he also had a wider virtuosity than any other of the drummers he might have competed with in this catgory.
Third is to be innovative. While Baker was not the only jazz drummer to bring that background to rock, with people like Charlie Watts, Mitch Mitchell (from Hendrix's band) and later Stewart Copeland doing that. But Baker also used his background to transform the structure and diversity of rock, particularly in Cream. (I do think his work however brief in Blind Faith tends to be relatively discounted, but is quite impressive in hindsight as well.) And he did so to a greater extent and to greater overall effect (see the first "thing" above) than anyone else.
As for some of the competitors...
Keith Moon. While very impressive, Moon did not have the range or sublety of Baker. He was like a guitar shredder who could not play anything less than all out.
Mitch Mitchell. No one else mentioned him so far in this thread. So I thought he should be mentioned. Like Baker he brought a jazz approach to rock, and in many ways was nearly as good. But I don't think it can be argued that he had anywhere near Baker's influence. Still whenever I go back and listen to Hendrix, the stuff he played with Mitchell, his work really stands out.
Stewart Copeland. I love his work as well, but I also think it cannot be argued his influence was all that wide.
@kenny-164, thanks for bringing up Mitch Mitchell. Somehow his name fails to get mentioned when it comes to fine drummers in rock. He was such a perfect fit for Hendrix.
shareAs Mr. Baker makes clear, he would scoff at the notion of being labeled a "rock" rather than "jazz" drummer, but I think there's enough evidence here that is perhaps the greatest rock drummer. I'm not enough of an aficionado of jazz to make a call there.
shareGreat is a subjective term.
Granted, Carl Palmer is historically one the best arena rock drum soloists with incredible chops.
However remember that Rhythm and blues had a baby and they called it "rock and roll"
In this film Ginger Baker talked about the apparently high personal premium he put on musicians such as Clapton and Winwood whom he claimed had a good sense of "time".
So if having a good sense of time is an important aspect of good "Rock" drumming then the greatest award should go to a drummer who possessed a seemingly perfect sense of time, the late great Al Jackson Jr. The drummer with Booker T and the Mg's,
they didn't call him "the human metronome" for nothing folks.
Booker T. & the MG's : Boot-Leg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecrK3eWQ98c
danny carey from tool is one of the best.
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