Unfortunate plot hole


I enjoyed the movie, but there is a plot hole that can not be overlooked. People have mentioned the lack of research into the family, but there is one even bigger one than that. At the level of art and antiques that Oldman auctioned, provenance is everything. It would have been immediately apparent that fake Claire knew nothing about the furnishings, or that the stories about the furniture and paintings didn't add up, as real Claire said that they were carried in. Any existing furnishings would have been real Claire's. and fake Claire wouldn't have known their story either. Even if Oldman could have identified most of the furnishings stylisticaly, he would have been extremely suspicious of a palazzo of art and furniture without provenance, and the value would have been substantially under market.

Obviously filmed in Italy, every Italian noble family I know can identify 90% of everything in their home, even if this is an English or Danish noble family in Italy. "This was a gift from the Principessa Borghessi. We received that from his holiness Pio IX".

I did also have trouble with the English in what was obviously an Italian setting. I would not have hurt for the bar scenes to have been in Italian with sub-titles.

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I never really thought about that, but it's a good point you mention. Although I do think she could have given the excuse that it was her parent's purchases. All of the furnishings and stylistic possessions within the house could have been owned by the parents and Claire could have just been oblivious to their origins. The film did claim that she was the only living member of the family, every one else being deceased; however I do think that could have been seen as a bit suspicious considering she claimed to adore that house. I think it would be plausible to assume she would have knowledge of some, it not all, the items within the house, but I could also see the argument that she just could have been ignorant as well.

I don't think it's a major detriment to the film, just a testament to a minor flaw in the writing. Overall it's still a good film in my opinion.

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I see your point as well. However, assuming the back story given was mostly real (the real Claire didn't seem to have much of a social life either. She was a victim of circumstance that was just as much a "prisoner" as fake Claire pretended to be and Mr. Oldman were to their own inner demons) it would seem plausible that she didn't know the provenance or much about the family's possessions. It was said that she developed agoraphobia around age twelve, so it's not a far jump to assume that her illness took precedence in her life and mind. How many twelve year olds actually know what their parents or grandparents or earlier predecessors owned that had been passed down from generation to generation? And, as technology advances and people can travel quite freely, there are more and more "kids" venturing out much farther from their birth place (and family history) to forge a path of their own. For all these reasons, it seems very likely that Claire saw the upper-class trappings as much a prisoner in the home as she was and distancing herself, even if only across the street, allowed her to stay connected, but in a detached, observational manner.

That's my take on it anyway. Only the writer and director know what they were going for with the story. Notwithstanding, it was beautifully done.



- Get busy living, or get busy dying. Andy (The Shawshank Redemption)

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[deleted]

the paintings were stolen purely out of revenge not to be resold.

https://youtu.be/93sGUFpVxFI

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[deleted]

Revenge? For what?
I think he means Virgil stole them for himself, a sort of "revenge" on the art world by keeping the paintings so no one else could appreciate them.
I enjoyed the movie, but there is a plot hole that can not be overlooked. People have mentioned the lack of research into the family, but there is one even bigger one than that. At the level of art and antiques that Oldman auctioned, provenance is everything. It would have been immediately apparent that fake Claire knew nothing about the furnishings, or that the stories about the furniture and paintings didn't add up, as real Claire said that they were carried in. Any existing furnishings would have been real Claire's. and fake Claire wouldn't have known their story either. Even if Oldman could have identified most of the furnishings stylisticaly, he would have been extremely suspicious of a palazzo of art and furniture without provenance, and the value would have been substantially under market.
It is just a movie. You're expecting a lot out of it and yeah, if it happened in real life there'd be issues, but if it was that real then it would not have made a good story. I didn't think it was a big issue that "fake" Claire didn't know about the furnishings, because she was young, and supposedly naive, and a shut-in. I mean she lived behind a secret wall...that's not exactly realistic in itself. I think the point was, Virgil was so greedy, he thought he was getting a real chance of a lifetime to make a bundle on some unclaimed stuff. He's the one who created provenance around items with no history or a weak history in the first place. He constantly took the opportunity to take things with vague history and add legitimacy to them just to hike the prices up and make money off them. That has been done in real life, but not to that extent, so based on the reality of the movie the "plot hole" is in keeping within those boundaries. And also in this case, Virgil was supposed to be distracted not only by the automaton, but Claire as well, to the point of not noticing the holes all around him. That was the whole plan.

I can't understand your crazy moon language.

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No, revenge on Oldsman for not taking Billy's art seriously.

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That's quite a revenge for someone's honest opinion.

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How do you know the auction wasn't reopened?

We didn't see it but it doesn't mean it didn't happen and it wasn't necessary to see it.

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Actually, Billy (Donald Sutherland) has provenance for the paintings. Technically, he was the one who submitted the winning bids on them (paid with Virgil's money), and then slipped them to Virgil in secret, afterwards, since Virgil couldn't bid on items in his own auction. But this means it was Virgil who had to keep his ownership of the masterworks a secret, while the public record would show Billy as the rightful owner. So, Billy can legally sell those paintings whenever he wants. Revenge certainly seems to be his main motivation, but he also knows that Virgil can never report the paintings as stolen. In fact, once he has the paintings verified as originals, rather than fakes, he could sell them at a huge profit, while heaping even more shame on Virgil by discrediting Virgil's evaluations.

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My thoughts exactly.

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There is a black market for the art, isn't there? Private collections?

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My issue is with the fact that he wasn't curious or even suspicious when Clair described him to someone on the phone as soon as she thought he left when he hid behind the statue, am I missing something?

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When he was hiding behind the statue, Claire knew that he was there so she was putting on an act. Robert is the one who gave him the idea to hide there, after he says something like "depends on how brave your friend is".

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She didn't have to know he was hiding since it happened spontaneously without him telling his friend he was planing to do it. Regardless, why did he not suspect something when as soon as he 'leaves' he hears her on the phone describing his looks and his reaction to her sickness' to someone?

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Regardless, why did he not suspect something when as soon as he 'leaves' he hears her on the phone describing his looks and his reaction to her sickness' to someone?



Because he's arrogant. Her description of him on the phone -- an older man but a handsome one -- is what he thinks of himself.

It never occurs to him, who fools and scams and steals from others -- that it could happen to him. That's the thing that destroys him, as much as the loss of what he thought was love, and the trust he had in the two people closest to him (besides Claire, that is): Billy and Robert. They literally took everything from him.

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Even if Oldman could have identified most of the furnishings stylisticaly, he would have been extremely suspicious of a palazzo of art and furniture without provenance, and the value would have been substantially under market.



I think his arrogance prevented him from seeing much that might have been obvious to a less arrogant, self focused, person. He didn't expect anyone other than himself to know as much about antiques, the art world, all the beautiful things. Not even Claire, who he came to know first as annoying and quirky and weird, and later as a fragile, phobic (something he knew a little about) sad and beautiful girl. It literally never occurred to him that he could be taken! As he had taken others.

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just a minor point "...a gift from the Principessa Borghessi" should be "... principessa BORGHESE". That's the name of one the most ancient family.
;-)

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You are correct. My apologies to the family.

Even the most disinterested modern club hopping fast car driving London living children of modern Italian nobility, descended from minor Counts in hilltop villages in Le Marche can, at least, give you sketches of some of their family pieces. Here in Italy, kick a stone and find a Count.

Provenance is just as important in furniture as in paintings, if you are going to deal at the highest auction level. For example, I have a piece from 1490. I can trace the provenance to the museum, to the private owner and then the abbey it originated before the French revolution. This raises its value by about 600%.

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''People have mentioned the lack of research into the family.''

Why? If he researched about the family, he simply founded that the owner was Clair Ibetson. That's why they use a real villa with a real woman of the same age as the fake Claire.

''I did also have trouble with the English in what was obviously an Italian setting. I would not have hurt for the bar scenes to have been in Italian with sub-titles.''

Tornatore said he was a middle-european ambientation without a specific identity or nationality.


Note: My english is bad, sorry.

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