Age Difference . . Again
There is a significant age difference between the romantic leads.
shareYea and it's put me right off the film. It is a cool premise ruined by Hollywoods need to always cast an older man and a women young enough to be his daughter. Instead of having two people around the same age. God forbid we show woman over the age of forty as a love interest. FU Hollywood and your stupid ageist rules!
AMEN! Said the atheist...
It's sad, that great actresses can't get roles just because they're over 40! Then they're doomed to be mothers or b*tches. Or both.
Oh well, most of them can find jobs at Broadway or in independent movies.
Don't mistake hate speech for free speech. Remember, hate speech kills!
If the people making these movies had any sense they would figure out we don't mind seeing older women on screen. A whole lot of them are still down right sexy!
I'm sorry, but I think y'all are dead wrong and missing the point. Oldman worshiped idealized female beauty. Billy and his gang knew exactly how to bait him: NOT with a mature, confident, middle-aged woman capable of brilliant conversation! He was a sucker for Claire because of the very fact that she was such an unlikely catch for a stuffy, withered old coot like him.
And I'd hardly call them romantic leads. "Claire" was not in love with him and she probably got through their one sex act by thinking of all the money she would get for it.
I'm sorry, but I think y'all are dead wrong and missing the point. Oldman worshiped idealized female beauty. Billy and his gang knew exactly how to bait him: NOT with a mature, confident, middle-aged woman capable of brilliant conversation! He was a sucker for Claire because of the very fact that she was such an unlikely catch for a stuffy, withered old coot like him.EXACTLY. Everything in this movie is intentional. This is the story of an old guy who has lived his whole entire life without physical human contact because he has an obsession with an idealized "perfect," ageless woman in his mind that he has resolved himself to never being able to find in real life. To the point where he sequesters himself in his own home surrounded by pictures of this ideal woman. He's had this image in his head since he was young, so of course he's not going to have an old woman his own age in his mind. She is a fantasy. When you fantasize about the ultimate mate, so you envision someone 60+ years old?
And I'd hardly call them romantic leads. "Claire" was not in love with him and she probably got through their one sex act by thinking of all the money she would get for it.
They didn't do this in the movie just so we could watch 2 people nowhere near each other's ages get together. They did it because the whole point of the movie is that, like an automaton, humans can fake anything, even love. Maybe it disgusted Claire to be with him, but she fakes it & convinces him so much that even after he's been scammed, he still wonders if there wasn't anything at all there. It's asking us to think about how different are we from just some machine mimicking human-like traits. It makes us ask, what exactly is love? How sincere are people, really? Virgil couldn't have been more enamored with a woman, and yet he was stealing the automaton parts from her, and he promised to respect her privacy yet spied on her anyway (and got an eyeful when she was sucking on her toe...she sure was accident prone). This really wasn't a big thinker of a movie, people, but I would think most people would realize it wasn't just about an old guy & young chick having sex. There was a point to it, I don't see how you can overlook that. share
I have to say I am happy you wrote it, because I was just too lazy to type all of that, but was also really frustrated and annoyed by all the comments on age, etc. I don't know why people love to discuss movies in such a shallow way, or always take movies as a good chance to discuss feminist or racial issues, when the whole point of the movie or plot is elsewhere! It's sad because the miss the chance to enjoy a good film, and some good thoughts to ponder, and instead focus on irrelevant issues that don't do their 'soul' any good.
shareHe actually probably old enough to be her grandfather. Maybe it will actually work against him in the film? Someone sleeping with someone that much older, its not going to have a good outcome.
shareYea I for one won't be rushing to the cinema now because of this. I'll catch it on TV or something maybe.
My father was 40 years older than my mother and they were quite happy together.
shareIt's a recurrent motif in literature also. This time it's not on Hollywood.
shareVirgil's attraction to Claire was unlikely; anything that would increase the odds would have been used as part of the con. A rather strong physical attraction would help to tip the scales -- and having that meant having Claire be fairly young. It seems to me the age difference is more about making the plot work than it is about some "rule".
(Note not only the naked-arising-from-the-bathtub scene but also the hurt-my-toe-in-the-kitchen scene where Claire sits on a chair directly facing the hidden Virgil with only her blue bathrobe on and no underwear, so when she sucks her toe her genitals are quite visible. And the very loose tying of the bathrobe which leaves her boobs half falling out. And the glimpse of her ass when zipping the back of the new black dress. Even her sexy shadow on her bedroom door when she puts on a sweater.)
Also, this is a European production and nothing can be blamed on 'Hollywood'.
A rather strong physical attraction would help to tip the scales -- and having that meant having Claire be fairly young.
Why?
(Nice of you to say women must be "fairly young" to inspire "strong physical attraction.")
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Why?Unfortunately personal experience. Despite all the "correct" philosophizing in the world, bordering on obnoxious PC (and also trying pretty hard to avoid the label "dirty old man"), I must admit that as a retiree I spend much more time on the sidewalk looking at and fantasizing about young women. It "shouldn't" be that way ...but it is.😱
The theoretical prediction of evolutionary biology points in the same direction too (although I don't know of any relevant experiments). Biology links sex to procreation, hence women of child-bearing age are "more attractive". Again this is philosophically distasteful and socially problematic ...but also true. share
So, you are saying there can be no "rather strong physical attraction" felt toward a woman who's not "fairly young."
I guess they should all just go kill themselves, then. Or accept an empty future as human refuse.
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no "rather strong physical attraction"That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying there would be more "rather strong physical attraction" to a younger woman. To say that B>A does not imply that A=0.
I guess they should all just go kill themselves, then. Or accept an empty future as human refuse.So, you are saying people have no other value than as sex objects, and if an individual is not a great sex object any more, then they have no reason at all to live?
(I'm getting the impression whatever is going on here is only distantly related to what's actually been said. Care to say what exactly this apparent disagreement is really about from your point of view?) share
That's not at all what I'm saying.
But that is exactly what you said: "A rather strong physical attraction would help to tip the scales -- and having that meant having Claire be fairly young."
You're stating a woman's attractiveness is dependent on her youth. Youth obviously can be attractive, but people have other qualities (in real life) that attract others, as well.
One thing that's distasteful about this message being played out over and over in films by pairing older actors with women less than half their age is that actors do not undergo the same scrutiny and rigid physical requirements as actresses. No one thinks Mr. Rush is unattractive...Claire even says he's attractive on the phone, and it doesn't seem odd to us. (We'll never know if she was lying or not.) But if a woman like, say, Isabella Rossellini (who's 1 year younger than Rush) had been on the other side of that door, you're saying there couldn't have been a "rather strong physical attraction" there.
Which is sad. And very limited.
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Youth obviously can be attractive, but people have other qualities (in real life) that attract others, as well.
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Look, I'm a woman, so I'm on your side, ok? But I have to agree with the guys that in this particular movie it would have not worked to have an older Claire. Of course there are qualities that attract others in older women. But those qualities take time and interpersonal skills to discover, and Virgil didn't have either. He was incapable of having a genuine attachment with a woman. That's why it was important to pitch him a quick strong bait to latch on. That's the very point of this movie, that's what makes him vulnerable to a con, and that's what earns him punishment in the end.
yes, me too!!! SO tired of this already!! Insulting & offensive.
And if switched the OTHER way around, people would be in horror!
What am I saying? Never happens. Not that I care for it to. Just the hypocrisy is enough to make one sick.
ENOUGH already!!
Make you sick?? You ARE sick. obviously. Can't you understand that this is part of the plot??? How could this movie work if she was old and he was young???? What is insulting and offensive????? this is a story of an old virgin man (Virgil) who falls for a young lady, BUT the young lady is only Pretending to love him and to find him attractive, only to steal his paintings!! which is actually to sat that young women DON'T find such old men attractive. If anyone would feel offended, it's old men, who could probably whine about how they are portrayed as lusty horny foold who fall for schemes and become so gullible to believe that young beautiful ladies can indeed like them.
insulting and offensive?
Go watch Tom and Jerry, or Mission Impossible, because you are obviously not intelligent enough to watch real films. Or are just some dumb angry under-fkkd woman who is frustrated and angry. Too angry to see things for what they are. I pity you.
Hey Moron, did you REALLY just admonish others for what you deem to be nonintellectual?
yes, you DID.
Here's a copy of one of your lines from above.
which is actually to sat that young women....
Mind you, couldn't get through your entire RANT, you're too stupid to devote an entire minute to.
But MAYBE harness some of your negative energy into PROOFING before calling others names.
Know this. I'd love to compare academics or just plain accomplishments & achievement with you some day.
Heck, I probably HAVE already & flunked you. Sure would sting on YOUR end.
MORON!!
NOW YOU CAN GET BACK TO YOUR CARTOONS, STOOGE!
Hahahaha
wow
You just confirmed what I said. You are DUMB and empty headed!!
Sat? is that what you are referring to? really? sat in stead of say?
so you couldn't find anything to nitpick on..so you are looking for typos?? not even spelling mistakes, but typos!!!
You wrote like 8 lines full of NOTHING. Which proves my point: I was damn right and you couldn't find anything meaningful to say.
The age difference is part of the plot, you stupid dumb beeeetchh. But you obviously wrote your stupid rant without even seeing the film. You are empty and just looking for a 'cause' to rant about and seem intelligent and a believer in something. I wasn't ranting, you under-fccckd ugly beeetch. I was teaching you, and explaining to you what the whole film and plot was about. But you are still too stupid to realize you are embarrassing yourself here and making a complete fool of yourself, and should just stfu instead.
I despise people like you.
beeetch???????????
F OFF LOSER! God I hope you'RE NINE!!
IF you ARE older---AND SURELY YOU ARE, EVEN A 9-YR OLD HAS MORE BRAINS.... do the world a favor & KILL YOURSELF NOW.
SERIOUSLY, JUST DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
again, you keep proving how dumb and trivial you are.
Beeeeeeeeeeetch is a way to avoid IMDB deleting curse words.
But there must be a way for dumb b!tches like you to get insulted and humiliated as you love.
You realize that in this whole stupid thread you didn't say one meaningful phrase, or had a single point??
A stupid under f\/ckd b!tch who haven't seen a movie, yet feel offended by the plot!!!
Hahahahahahahaha
I'm done with you. I have humiliated you too much that I am starting to feel bad for you.
Now go suck on something then go to bed.
Oh, sorry, I forgot. Your whole problem is that you can't find anything to suck on, or sit on. Hence your misery.
A stupid under f\/ckd b!tch who haven't seen a movie, yet feel offended by the plot!!!
Hahahahahahahaha
Gotta LOVE this.
Then MORON here throws in
Hence??????????
HENCE????????
Stop making me laugh, I almost can't take it laughing this hard.
Seriously trying to impress someone?
My guess is you think "hence" does it??
HOW SAD!!!
I would annihilate you if we crossed paths! I'd scrape you off my heel.
Then again, no doubt many others have already gotten that pleasure for me.
Go back to your room in the mental institution, MORON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But lastly, You fool no one, ....you only continue to humiliate yourself.
Save your crazy rant. YOU ARE NOW "IGNORED" BY ME ---don't waste your seriously scary, crazy energy here--as it's more than clear you are ignored by the the rest of the world already, and probably from VERY early on.
More than clear that has been path of your PATHETIC MEANINGLESS LIFE.
PLEASE JUST DIE ALREADY!!
So you are insisting on making a fool of yourself. And have nothing to say. NOthing!! whatsoever.
First you were nitpicking on Sat/Say (a simple typo, not even a spelling mistake), then Beeetch, which was a humorous way to deal with imdb censorship with words, and also to humiliate you a little. Then no.. HENCE.
Well, let me first tell you something, you little stupid b!tch: English is not my first language, BUT I speak 3 languages, and a 4th that I wouldn't really count since I'm not good enough. I lived in 4 or 5 countries, and now live in the 6th. Now tell me if you have left your little village ever, or even have a passport!!
Again, people like you make me sick. I despise your likes. Fake people who pretend to have a cause and believe in something. You haven't seen the fckng film, you stupid dolt, yet take the time to come here and comment on something you have zero idea of but want to join the herd. The plot is based on an old man who is still a virgin, and being scammed by a young lady who is scheming to rob him. But, someone with a low IQ as yours dare to come here and say that this is offensive, and filmmakers should try to reverse the roles!!!!! and if you stop making childish laughable comments on typos and the such, you will be speechless and unable to defend yourself. Because you KNOW how fake you are, and that you are just a simple minded clueless dolt who just wants to feel like she belongs to something. So what does she do? rant about some 'feminist' issue. Without seeing the film. Because stupid uncultured people like you don't watch movies (well, again, cartoon and Men in Black don't count) LOL
I'm really enjoying humiliating you and showing everyone what a dumb under fckdd b!tch you are.
At least get yourself a vibrator. it will calm you down a little and keep this space free of fake empty people like you.
My objective opinion is you lost. He made valid points. You didn't.
I don't love her.. She kicked me in the face!!
Can't you understand that this is part of the plot??? How could this movie work if she was old and he was young????
I don't know...maybe by making the plot more original, and better than the usual slop we're fed by run-of-the-mill movies?
(Just thinking out loud, here...)
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it is considered "original" by some, and many people didn't see it coming. And there are all kinds of plots out there in the movies. I was commenting on her feeling "sick" and "offended" (??!!) by the fact that the movie depicts an old man having a love affair with a young woman. she said they could maybe reverse it. And that obviously doesn't work in That movie. If we change the plot to suit such a suggestion, then we end up with a whole different film and story, right?
The plot doesn't show a young girl falling for a charming old playboy. What we have here is an isolated old Virgin who has problems dealing with women (and the world in general) and a woman who Pretends to like him in order to rob him. Nothing to "Offend" anyone here. Or I would actually wait a couple of decades, and feel offended that old men are portrayed in such way, and say I'm fed up of being portrayed as old lustful men chasing girls as young as our granddaughters. And that this fool old virgin man doesn't represent the reality of us old men.
People should learn to leave their issues and insecurities aside when dealing with cinema or art in general. And they should know that what they see on screen is not reality or a representation of it. They should also stop throwing the word Offended here and there, because it lost its meaning completely and became empty. Just like the ice bucket challenge!!
I was commenting on her feeling "sick" and "offended" (??!!) by the fact that the movie depicts an old man having a love affair with a young woman. she said they could maybe reverse it. And that obviously doesn't work in That movie. If we change the plot to suit such a suggestion, then we end up with a whole different film and story, right?
Not necessarily. The plot only requires Virgil to be mesmerized by Claire...not necessarily because of her youth.
However, a real problem in discussing this aspect of the film is that neither of the main characters' motivations are explored very well.
For Claire's part, her role resembles Judy/Madeleine in Vertigo (1958). (When she embraces Virgil, she even sounds like that Hitchcock heroine, who in a similar situation said, "If you lose me, you'll know I loved you. And I wanted to go on loving you.") But there, the character was given a confessional scene where she writes a letter that explains her true feelings. "Claire" (we don't even learn her real name) is never explored to that degree, and is a cipher.
Virgil is exclusively attracted to very young women because....(???) We aren't told. The fact that he's never connected with a woman before doesn't explain why he's fixated on women so outside his own age range.
People should learn to leave their issues and insecurities aside when dealing with cinema or art in general. And they should know that what they see on screen is not reality or a representation of it. They should also stop throwing the word Offended here and there, because it lost its meaning completely and became empty.
I disagree with you on all counts. 1.) People respond to art on a personal level; to put their feelings aside makes it a cold and clinical experience. Besides which, they've bought their ticket and are free to respond in any way they want. 2.) Art is a product and reflection of the world in which its created. 3.) Because you dismiss the fact that someone's offended doesn't diminish the issue that they are, or what has inspired the moral offense.
I am offended by the way women in general are usually depicted in cinema, and how they are underemployed in all areas of the field. (Add up the male to female ratio of the artists employed by this project, and notice which group got more jobs/paychecks.) In this case, we're given a 1-dimentional female lead who's a third of the star's age for no particular reason. As both those factors reduces women to such a diminished plane, I find that offensive.
(I realize that as a male, who's grown up with all the privileges of your gender, that this is all rather beyond you...and to a degree your incomprehension isn't all your fault. However, you could show more compassion, and also perhaps get curious as to why some other people may be distressed when women are treated unfairly in movies.)
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Okay, from where to start.. this is going to be long, and it's late here (or rather early morning..) but I will try:
-first off: what I mean by putting your insecurities aside is not being cold. it means do not judge the filmmaker/painter/writer for things that you need to fix or confront inside yourself. What people do is they blame the creators of artworks for things that only exist in their heads. What you need to do is to calmly examine the subject, and why you feel the way you do. it is obvious here that whatever the previous woman mentioned was not a rational thought of someone who even had anything to say about the work itself, but have an issue with things in her life or her view on life, and she projected it on the work- where it was not relevant. I can assure you that she didn't see the film (at least at the time she wrote the comment). People are always screaming I'm Offended!! and it is very childish.
(an example: if any work of art touches me for any personal reason (it's always personal anyway) great, but going on forums to scream and condemn because certain aspects of the work hit a nerve, and then I go about how offensive this work is, then it's not a rational discussion anyone would be interested in having or considering when looking at the artwork itself. be objective. if you can only see the work in the light of your troubled childhood or certain trauma you had, then it is not a discussion of the work at hand really, but rather of your own issues. I would take it to my shrink, or a close friend. not where people discuss movies-unless I am willing to listen and stop accusing and screaming OFFENSIVE!! if I hate that actress of character because it reminded me of my abusive stepmother, it's not really like I am discussing the film itself!)
As for the character in this movie: again.. the writers and director of the film have their reason to make the girl young, and it is not weird or strange of a choice. Obviously, a youngish lady first here for someone who is stuck with his obsession with paintings depicting young perfect beauty. A woman his age will not work here and I don't think I need to explain why. And if you look at the painting on the wall, you will see that the majority of it are of young ladies. He is also virgin. And we can imagine that someone who has never been with a woman may be still carrying fantasies and images of his early years as a young man. I'm 40, and even thought I'm far from being virgin or isolated or afraid of the others, I still have my early visions and idolized fantasies of young girls, say early 20s. The idea of old men desiring and being obsessed with young ladies is nothing unfamiliar or unrealistic. I will never forget that day, in Vienna, while waiting in line in a movie theater at 11pm for a late show, and I saw that old man, maybe late 60s or early 70s, staring with eyes full of melancholic desire a young lady (maybe 20) and I cannot imagine what went through his mind. I will not accuse. He is what he is, and no one can feel OFFENDED by the man's desires. He didn't look like an old sleazy creep. Just an old melancholic man yearning for something long lost and gone. If I was a filmmaker, I would probably include this man somehow in one of my movies one day. And I am sure you can imagine how the writers here decided the scammers would want to pick a young lady to be his interest. You can see that the girl provoked many emotions inside of him. Not only lust or desire to connect. But somehow made him protective of her. Like some fatherly state. Also, it is easier to convince us that a young lady is hiding in her bedroom for those past years, than if it was a 40 or 50 year old woman hiding for 4 decades in her bedroom, don't you think?
The lady here simply represents the ideal beauty, innocence and purity found in untouched painted subjects in those paintings. A 50 year old virgin woman takes this whole concept to a different place.
I will not comment on the rest regarding ratio of men/women working here or there, for many reasons. Among them is it not being true, and another reason is I am really tired of discussing such fallacies and whenever I try to explain why they are untrue, I am labeled as Not knowing the world in a realistic way for being a man and not seeing what women see. I, as a man, in the creative field, who have lived with women working in the same fields, can see how women get LOTS of chances ,that even I, a man, do not get. And not only that, but they get help and support I do not get, simply because I am a man and shouldn't need such help and support (and sympathy). Really, those days of women being oppressed are long gone. You will respond and say otherwise, but I will not reply. I will not be dragged into this argument. I am here to discuss this film and why it would offend anyone. Lets not digress. Thank you.
...and one more thing (sorry if this is getting too long. and sorry for all the typos and grammar mistakes- I'm getting sleepy)
One can feel offended (!?) if the film was suggesting that old men should get young ladies instead of old ones. I think it is clear here that the situation here says "if it is too good to be true then it probably is". So what is a young beautiful girl doing with such an old man? scamming him. The film is not promoting this type of January/December (!) relationship. The old man got what he got because he refused to see things for what they are. And decided to fool himself into believing that someone like her can fall for someone like him.
You seem to know little about long con and the risks involved. Oldman would never have turned down a chance to be with Claire. That aspect of the con had to be a sure thing not to mention he had to be willing to overlook her shortcomings (necessary for the con) because of who she was (young, beautiful, and alluring.)
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lol, are you crazy or something? a woman over 40 is almost completely useless to men. as if a man would ever bother with a 40 year old woman, nevermind a crazy one. nobody would enjoy watching a crazy 40 year old woman. sorry to break it to you but that's the truth. the only people who care about 40 year old women are old women and feminists who are on a mission to force men into liking something that they don't. men are never going to be attracted to old and fat. keep dreaming.
shareYea and it's put me right off the film. It is a cool premise ruined by Hollywoods need to always cast an older man and a women young enough to be his daughter.
DAUGHTER? Can we say GRANDDAUGHTER???
I was so grossed out by this, I really had an aversion to the film the whole way through. (Not that I couldn't appreciate the things it did do well, such as its design and atmosphere.)
During the whole time he was first communicating with Claire through the door, I was amusing myself by wondering what the film would be like if she revealed herself to be an ordinary, middle-aged (or even elderly) woman. But no, of course, then there would be no STORY, in our warped cinema world.
Similarly, you would never see the ages reversed, with a very young man being fascinated in this way by a woman three times his age.
The one chance the film had to redeem itself was in meditating on this old man's folly in obsessing over a young girl...but it couldn't even rouse itself to do THAT.
Really rather repellent, when you look at it objectively.
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I was amusing myself by wondering what the film would be like if she revealed herself to be an ordinary, middle-aged (or even elderly) woman. But no, of course, then there would be no STORY....
It's likely that he wouldn't have been attracted to an average elderly woman so the con wouldn't have succeeded. So of course there would have been no story. share