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The Portrayal of 2nd Officer Lightoller


Hello there :)

I'm sorry if this has been addressed before. I'm half way through the 2nd episode and I'm a bit disconcerted by the portrayal of 2nd Officer Charles Lightoller. It's been a while since I've read the books 'A Night to Remember' and 'The Night Lives On' by Walter Lord, but from these depictions at least (in addition to the film 'A Night to Remember' with Kenneth More), Lightoller is portrayed as a level headed hero.

If I'm correct, in A Night to Remember it was the opposite side of the ship from Lightoller's that was lowering lifeboats half full. In this version, Lightoller is panicking about the lifeboats splitting and lowering them under capacity.

Do any Titanic Junkies know what is correct? Was Lightoller underestimating the danger, and trying to play it too safe by lowering the life boats without filling them? Or did he do the right thing all along, henceforth becoming the 'hero' of the story?

I'd appreciate your input :)

Thanks!

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Lightoller is an interesting figure - he led quite a life. With regard to the Titanic, his actions were probably well intended but he is notorious for interpreting 'women and children first' as 'women and children ONLY' and he let boats away with free spaces even though there were crowds of men standing by who could have been saved. He also disparaged young teenage boys from getting in because he thought they were 'men' and is noted as stipulating 'no more BOYS'!






Your name is of no importance and you live in the pipe in the upstairs water closet.

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However, that particular bit of weirdness aside, Lightoller did still keep a relatively level head if I recall correctly. It's not many men that could go through the particularly unpleasant string of events he did, survive by either sheer luck or divine favor, and still have a clear enough head to organize the fellows atop the overturned lifeboat well enough for them to survive until the Carpathian arrived.

Swooping is bad.

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[deleted]

Lightoller, for whatever reason, has been turned into a villain in recent films -- including this one. I suspect Julian Fellowes watched James Cameron's version and played off of his version of events, rather than the actual happenings.

In reality, Lightoller lowered the lifeboats half full with the intention of finishing loading them from the lower deck, through the gangway doors. He said at the inquest that he and Murdoch told the lifeboats to row toward the gangway doors and stay there, but the crew instead rowed away.

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I'd take whatever Lightoller says with a grain of salt. He says himself that there was "whitewashing" going on. Said he never fired his gun yet told Gracie he did. Gave an obviously bull story about a conversation he had with Phillips after the ship sank (on an upturned collapsable fighting for their lives, mind you) where Phillips talks about an iceberg message he didn't get to the bridge in time. Never mind that Phillips probably didn't even make it to the collapsable, and if he did, he would be dying instead of taking about messages. Lightoller then went on to blame Phillips for the whole disaster saying he would have slowed the ship down if he'd gotten that message, never mind the fact that that's not how things worked back then and never mind the fact that there were several ice warnings already. And he along with Pitman probably lied about the ship breaking in half to keep their jobs.

Cameron's film didn't turn him into a villain, it just didn't portray him as the Rambo of the sinking.

http://www.the-editing-room.com/winters-bone.html

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What is there not to believe? It makes absolutely no sense that Lightoller would load the lifeboats so poorly in such extreme situations. The only logical conclusion to reach is that he told the truth, and it was his intention to lower them half full and then finish the job from the lower decks.

Regarding misinformation at the inquest, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, considering NO ONE ever remembers with 100% accuracy what is happening in any given situation, particularly in a traumatic event such as that. If you doubt this is a problem, talk to a police officer sometime and you'll find out that 20 people can see the exact same thing and interpret it, or remember details, 20 different ways. Since there is no real evidence to the contrary, as well as the fact that he refused to get on a lifeboat even though as an officer, he had that right and that he risked his life to rescue soldiers at Dunkirk, I choose to believe that Charles Lightoller was heroic.

James Cameron's film did not live up to that heroism, in fact he turned him into a complete jerk. I'll be starting the Julian Fellowes miniseries in about an hour... if he does the same thing, I'll be disappointed.

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"It makes absolutely no sense that Lightoller would load the lifeboats so poorly in such extreme situations."

Either a misinterpretation of "women and children first", fear they'd buckle, or both. I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm just open to the possibility given the consistency of his other testimonies. If him and Murdoch really were planning on the boats getting filled up at the gangway doors, in Lightoller's case, that still leaves countless men on the top deck to die. Also, if this were so, has anyone ever backed him up?

And I don't know, the things Lightoller was wrong about weren't just small potatoes like the number of lifeboats he filled, but things like conversations that couldn't have taken place where people who most likely weren't there kindly took the blame for the ship's sinking (only one person says Phillips was on collapsible b, and that same person also said Phillips died in a different lifeboat). As for his testimony about the split, it'd be one thing if he was too preoccupied or simply didn't see it happen, but he goes on to say that the people who did see it are liars and that it "did not and could not happen". Either Lightoller is a part time architect or he was reading a script from White Star Line. It's curious that it's mostly crew members who say it didn't happen.

And the thing about all this misinformation is that it all benefits him in some way or another. Saying he never used his gun makes him sound peaceful, saying the ship didn't split keeps him in good relations with White Star Line, etc.

Again, I don't see Cameron's version as a jerk, just a guy under a lot of pressure. Hell, Lightoller is the only character in the whole film who tries to persuade anyone to slow the ship down. The worst thing he does is threaten the passengers, which Lowe is seen doing as well (and Lowe certainly had a favorable portrayal). If anyone got it bad, it's poor Murdoch who accepts bribes, shoots people, and then himself.

http://www.the-editing-room.com/winters-bone.html

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I don't disagree that Lightoller tried to cover his back at the inquest. As the highest remaining surviving officer, he did not want the blame falling on him. It is also possible, as you suggested, that he was told what to say by the White Star Line. But what about his compassionate acts, like telling Murdoch's widow he did not commit suicide?

Yes, poor Murdoch got the shaft in James Cameron's film.

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I actually think Lightoller did a lot more covering for Moody than anyone else (which supports Susan Stormer's rather interesting contention that Moody was the suicide-Lightoller admitted privately later in life that he knew an officer who committed suicide on Titanic but never said who.) And when he says in his book he assumes that there would be a "whitewash", he's not talking about White Star, he's talking about the British Board of Trade-the entity which was ultimately respnosible for Titanic having insufficient lifeboats in the first place and had approved her as seaworthy. He, like most sailors, assumed the BOT was mostly intending to cover their own arses by throwing Titanic's crew under the proverbial bus. It's often overlooked/forgottent that Titanic was carrying MORE lifeboat space than she was legally required to have. If they'd adhered rigidly to the BOT's requirements, she would only have had space for 976 people in the boats. (And yes, I've actually read all his testimony at both hearings.)

And not only did he (the only surviving officer in a position to know) write Ada Murdoch to assure her her husband died doing his duty (something I could see him lying about on his own), but he *had Boxhall, Pitman, and Lowe sign the letter, too.* They were all away by the time that's commonly assigned for the suicide (though Stormer again makes a good case, based on how far the rumor spread and who claims to have seen it, that the launcing of #16 was a more likely time) and couldn't have known. I can see Lightoller perjuring himself alone to spare Ada Murdoch's feelings, I *cannot* see him asking three other people to do the same, especially his own junior officers (two of whom he'd already served with, along with Moody.)

As far as pulling a gun on passengers in the Cameron version, that's actually a slightly...I don't even know if it was beefed up or toned down version of what actually happened. In real life he pulled the gun to get some men out of a lifeboat where they'd been hiding (and it was Boxhall who witnessed it, not Lowe.) It WAS accurate that he did it with an unloaded gun, as initially he just stuffed the gun and bullets in his pocket, not thinking he'd need it. Either version, I don't have a problem with it, as stupid panicky hordes of people are NEVER helpful. Nor do I have issue tossing men out-by the standards of the day women and children first, full stop. (As far as considering teen boys adults, given Lightoller himself went to sea full-time at thirteen, and wasn't at all unusual there, that's a fair call. Older "teens" aren't children anyway.) In the case of first-class men, in any case, they were damned if they made a break for the boats, drowned if they didn't. To their credit, none of them tried to force their way in, or bribe their way in.

Difficulty lowering the boats and concerns about breaking-that's down to both equipment being new and poorly prepped (brand-new rope is a PITA to work with) and piss-poor planning on White Star's part ('lifeboat drill' was something officers and crew sort of vaguely understood and the passengers never heard about, the boats were half-equipmed, oars still lashed together, ropes never hauled in or out, some crew had never worked a falls in their lives...)

I don't really have any problems with how any officer (save Smith, who screwed up in several ways) conducted himself. Heck, I do NOT blame Bruce Ismay for getting into a lifeboat. He was one of the last away and got in as it lowered-not one life could have been saved by his staying. Under the circumstances, hundreds of people were going to die, no matter what they did, and frankly every last officer and crew had a pretty good idea what their odds were (bad. Extremely, extremely, bad.) The junior officers (save Moody, for whatever reason that may be) were ordered into the boats. Lightoller was ordered away by Wilde and refused. The senior officers stayed until the end and the only reason Lightoller himself lived was a chance blast of air at the right moment (again, read his book, he got pulled under long enough to resign himself to drowning.) One thing I HATE about Cameron turning pretty much the entire White Star crew except Lowe into @$$***s is that *all of those people knew the odds were overwhelming they were about to die.* And most of them did. It's not the Oceanos where the crew was bolting for the boats and leaving passengers to drown.

The one problem I did have with Fellowes's version was actually nothing to do with the sinking (which was hard to follow anyway) but with the weird flirty thing going on with the actress. OOC for someone who was quite happily married (for fifty years, so they got SOMETHING right.) But compared to Cameron's treatment of all the crew, except, weirdly, Smith, the actual screw-up, I can live with that.

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This is really well written. I commend you for it, and for all the thought and knowledge that went into it. You made some excellent points, so well said in fact that I haven't much to add except this:

The one problem I did have with Fellowes's version was actually nothing to do with the sinking (which was hard to follow anyway) but with the weird flirty thing going on with the actress. OOC for someone who was quite happily married (for fifty years, so they got SOMETHING right.) But compared to Cameron's treatment of all the crew, except, weirdly, Smith, the actual screw-up, I can live with that.


I found that really off-the-wall nuts as well. I suppose it was intended to show him for being good-natured, but instead it just made me go "uh... you're MARRIED." (Was she married as well?)

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www.charitysplace.com

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The one problem I did have with Fellowes's version was actually nothing to do with the sinking (which was hard to follow anyway) but with the weird flirty thing going on with the actress. OOC for someone who was quite happily married (for fifty years, so they got SOMETHING right.) But compared to Cameron's treatment of all the crew, except, weirdly, Smith, the actual screw-up, I can live with that.




I found that really off-the-wall nuts as well. I suppose it was intended to show him for being good-natured, but instead it just made me go "uh... you're MARRIED." (Was she married as well?)



To be hones, I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. He was dancing with her, they had a little flirt - so???? Yes, he was married and as far as I can recall we didn't see them in bed together did we? It's not like he was cheating. The way it was portrayed he saw her in the movies and now he met her in person and I am sure it had the same effect on people back then as today. When we meet a star that we admire we try to talk to them and then we act a little flirty and there's nothing to it. And she - she was single as far as I know, Lightoller was a handsome man - as is Steven Waddington - and she obviously liked that he payed attention to her and flirted a bit back - I don't know what's so terrible about it. In Camerons Version noone seemed to mind that Rose had Sex with Jack in the car while she was engaged to Hockly, right? Why? what's the difference? because we were supposed to like Jack and dislike Cal? Because Cal was portrayed as a bad guy it was ok?? That's a bit hypocritical isn't it? I can only repeat my opinion - it was just a little harmless flirting and a dance, nothing more!

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"I actually think Lightoller did a lot more covering for Moody than anyone else (which supports Susan Stormer's rather interesting contention that Moody was the suicide-Lightoller admitted privately later in life that he knew an officer who committed suicide on Titanic but never said who.)"

I don't know if I support Stormer's argument. If Moody did it while launching Boat 16, there would have been a lot more witnesses. It was launched at only 1:20. Other than that, what else was Lightoller covering Moody for?

My only problem with the way Lightoller filled the boats is the way he wouldn't allow men even if no more women and children were available as opposed to Murdoch. I don't consider him a villain, but I don't support the demigod portrayal either. Particularly the way he threw Phillips under the bus.

http://www.the-editing-room.com/winters-bone.html

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"The only logical conclusion to reach is that he told the truth, and it was his intention to lower them half full and then finish the job from the lower decks."

I don't think that's the only logical conclusion. It's quite possible that he wasn't entirely honest at the inquest. After all, he was under fire for having loaded the lifeboats at less than full capacity and for the fact that the ship was going so fast when it hit the iceberg.

If as he claimed, he sent the lifeboats down half-full because he thought they would finish the job from the lower decks, he would have stopped that practice when he saw that wasn't happening. They didn't fill all the lifeboats simultaneously, so he had to know what was really going on.

He might have sent the lifeboats off less than full because he was under a lot of pressure and wasn't thinking totally clearly. He might have been more focused on crowd control, because if he hadn't kept the crowd back there could have been a run on the lifeboats and boats filled beyond capacity might have capsized.

I do think he tried to portray himself in the best light possible and was sort of willing to throw everyone else under the bus (the half-full lifeboats were the fault of others who rowed away and the iceberg hit was the fault of Phillips who didn't get him a message). Also, I believe what he said about Phillips has been discredited, so other things might not be entirely accurate too.

I don't think portraying him as having made a mistake with the lifeboats makes him a jerk or means he didn't act bravely under terrible circumstances. He is generally portrayed as having kept a fairly level head, and that's brave. I think perhaps treating him as both brave but mistaken is a more balanced portrayal, and probably closer to the truth (because at the end of the day, the lifeboats went out half-full and that was his call, and it did cost lives).

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You should see "A Night to Remember", a FACT-BASED docu-film of the Titanic disaster. 2nd officer Lightoller was a HERO.

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Yes, a hero that insisted on women and children only......

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Seen it at least twice. Maybe you should look into the facts yourself instead of getting all of your information from movies.

http://www.the-editing-room.com/winters-bone.html

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Uh, I've studied the Titanic for over 17 years, even recent research supports the theory to why so many men died that night....

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I was replying to g_dekok.

http://www.the-editing-room.com/winters-bone.html

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While Walter Lord did his damnedest to ensure he stuck to the facts, he also pulled much of his information from inquest testimony and later research conducted with the survivors themselves. So some of what we see in the movie of the same title was based upon what Lightoller himself had said over the course of the then almost fifty years post-Titanic.

Did 2nd Officer Lightoller lie? My guess is that, at the very least, he took a few liberties with the truth. Probably out of fear, since his actions during WWII speak loudly in his favor. He was the highest ranking officer to survive; he must've feared for his very livelihood; and while I'm sure he didn't want to appear the overeager hero (a reach of the truth in the other direction, more than likely), it didn't benefit him to be the ultimate scapegoat, either, and he had to know that. He was shrewd, if nothing else, and I do believe he did his best to maintain order and follow orders. The ship was coming apart; the crew topside knew hundreds would die. But they also knew from their training that order and civility had to be maintained, and I believe we cannot impose our modern sensibilities on a different social perception. 1912 was not 2012, no matter how fundamentally wrong we know their social mores might have been. The fact is that back then, things were decidedly different.

(Actually, and please know I have the ultimate respect for all of those officers that night, Lightoller's statement to Murdoch's wife that he didn't commit suicide makes me more inclined to believe he actually did. Possibly it was too much for Murdoch, and he caved. He was a man, no more and no less after all.)

As the ultimate Monday night quarterbacks we know that chaos was the order of the night, and the one thing we're certain of is that no one was truly certain of anything. Witnesses are the most unreliable sources in the best of times. It's a human flaw. And to say, 'why did X do Y' is a bit unfair even if it is our prerogative. Remember how we felt when the Concorde crashed. In our minds we knew it was fallible - planes crash, machines fail, humans screw up - in our hearts (and never mind logic) we knew it was inevitable. But even I can remember being so shocked when it actually happened - up to that time it was the only plane that had not had a catastrophic failure or disaster. Concorde was as close as some of us will ever come to Titanic in our lifetimes.

I can't blame anyone, really, for what happened that night, no matter how much we all need the story to have a distinct villain. It was a tragicomedy, if you will, of errors, omissions, and fate; a perfect storm of events that culminated into the loss of the largest man-made object of her time and most of those aboard her.

As a US military officer - and the daughter and sister of retired US Navy sailors - I'd like to put my faith in the officers on board at the time and believe they acted as appropriately as possible under the circumstances. This leaves them open to human foible and panic and fear - equally appropriate under the circumstances. These men weren't military officers per se, but they were merchant marine, highly trained - my own father-in-law served as a merchant marine member on board the Queen Mary (my husband is British) so I know from whence I speak. They were as experienced on the seas as my father and brother were in their days. And none of them had ever seen what they became a part of until that night.

I'm not daft enough to believe that we're machines, that we're not vulnerable to white-knuckled fear. Sometimes all the training in the world just isn't enough; there was no precedent for what was happening that night (hence no lifeboat drill at the start of the voyage, not enough lifeboats to start with, an almost arrogant reliance on the power of man over nature - I could go on and on). They weren't ready for this simply because it wasn't believed to be a possibility. It's not like now, where a huge chunk of passenger safety and maritime regulation exists because of what happened to Titanic. This was pre-disaster, when all she was was the beautiful, breathtaking spectacle she was meant to be, and not the poster child for what happens when everything goes wrong.

What I think we're all forgetting is these were men, ordinary men, put in the midst of extraordinary circumstances bigger than anything we're capable of imagining. Whatever they did or didn't do that night, we'll never really know, but I believe that even in their weakest moment, they did the best they could, right or wrong, in success or failure. We learned from Titanic; we corrected many mistakes and misconceptions. But we didn't know they were mistakes until 15 April 1912, when the aftermath began.

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Honestly it could not have been Moody and would have to have Been Murdoch or Wilde that killed themselves. Moody was the most junior deck officer, with the three most senior still on the boat (The Captain, chief officer and 1sr officer).

He could not have said every man for himself (as two independent witnesses wrote in private letters). He didnt have the authority and he knew it. Especially with Murdoch right beside him most of the time.

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I don't recall him(played by Kenneth Moore) being portrayed much better in that one than by James Cameron.

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I could care less, but I don’t care enough to bother.

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I don't recall him(played by Kenneth Moore) being portrayed much better in that one than by James Cameron.


Really? Maybe you should watch ANTR again!

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www.charitysplace.com

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He *was* a villain, and together with Wilde, the main reason for the preventable loss of 300 lives. The gangway story could be borderline acceptable for the early boats - even Mudoch did not fill his early boats to capacity -, but by the time the later boats were launched, he'd have to be a damn fool to still think the boats would take off more people at the gangways when all the boats just rowed away as soon as they were launched, never to come back. Nor did he ever explain how was the gangway plan supposed to work, and unfortunately, he was never grilled about it at the inquiries. It was just a poor excuse to justify his catastrophic decisions. I quite appreciate that in recent films he's not portrayed as a hero, because he was not.

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The BBC have an audio file of Lightoller talking about the sinking here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/titanic/5047.shtml

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"Lightoller talking about the sinking"

With the greatest of respect, don't you think he sounds like he's reciting an overly familiar story. Rehearsed, almost. How old was he when this recording was made?

For his efforts in helping people off the ship, whatever his misguided beliefs, he'll always be one of the heroes to me in this sorry tale.

Its origin and purpose, still a total mystery

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I too view him as somewhat of a hero. He remained cool under pressure. While more lives would have been saved if he'd let men in, according to Walter Lord's follow-up, "The Night Lives On", When loading one of the boats, when the women asked of their husbands could come, he told them no. Captain Smith was at that location at the time, and backed-up Lightoller. Women and children only. That novel was written when Dr. Robert Ballard located the wreck in 1985, so Lord had, what, 30 years for additional research? It's unlikely then that Lord's information is incorrect. If the information is correct, then Lightoller indeed was in tune with Smith's orders, and not sacrificing lives just for the hell of it.

The other factor leading to the boats only being filled half-full, or under, is because the officers were never told the full capacity. They underfilled for fear the boats would be overloaded and collapse and sink. When Lightoller first started trying to load the lifeboats, Wilde stopped him, and he he went to Smith, confirmed the order, and again started loading the boats.

As I understand it, only one lifeboat drill was carried out while the ship was docked. It consisted of two boats being lowered, each manned by one officer and four men who rowed around the dock for a few minutes before returning to the ship. Hardly the type of procedure that saves lives. The bottom line is, none of the officers, Lightoller or anyone else, were prepared for the full magnitude of the disaster that faced them on that night. But for the most part, I think they did a fairly commendable job.

Another factor, and this is a biggie. It's often depicted that Lightoller was in charge of the port side, and Murdoch the starboard. However, as I understand it, Lightoller only oversaw the lowering of 4 boats. With that in mind, he's definitely not to blame for the rest of the lifeboats being lowered under capacity.




I love to love my Lisa.

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he took the orders as "women and children ONLY" --- and he was the guy who wouldn't allow millionaire John Jacob Astor IV to accompany his pregnant wife into the lifeboat --- but on the other side of the ship First Officer Murdoch took the orders as "women and children FIRST" and if there were none around, allowed men to get into the lifeboats (but still plenty left not filled to capacity). There was a prevalent fear on that night that the lifeboats would split if filled up -- after all it was (at first) 75 feet above the water and a little paranoid to have passengers fall out of a broken lifeboat from that height. Most of the crew didn't know that the lifeboats had been tested (in Belfast I guess) with a full crew in the lifeboat and lowered etc.

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As far as I am concerned the best telling of the disaster is still Walter Lord's book "A Night to Remember" He sought out all the remaining survivors, of which then there were plenty, and built his book on their recollections. The film based on the book is the most accurate up to that time (the ship not splitting was a well believed non-fact).

Every film since then, including Cameron's, is riddled with errors. None more egregious than the fake love story. Were not the true actual tales of heroism, loss, and cowardice not enough?? I guess not since millions of preteen girls flocked to see the romance and not the tragedy.

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It's become a tragedy in itself, with the most visited grave in Halifax now being one J. Dawson, believed by the moviegoing public and film fans to be Jack Dawson.

Hollywood always has great opportunity to immortalise heroes or great stories of history, and 99.9% of the time they choose to either immortalise fictional romances or change the real-life heroes' character to be unrecognisable to those of history.

Disappointing.

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