MovieChat Forums > Kumaré (2011) Discussion > Troubling ...

Troubling ...

posted 12 years ago by goat94
40 replies | jump to latest

For all of the points it scored with critics and audiences, the welfare of the four followers (and yoga center owner) that didn't "get" his experiment seems to be forgotten in the publicity of the film.

It's great that two out of three of the group he'd lead got his message at the reveal, however that still leaves the remaining one in three that could have potentially been emotionally scared for life. No one is discussing this aspect of the film. I am certain the final edit left most of the footage featuring those who rejected him on the cutting room floor. Still, they are left with any number or combinations of potential trust issues that arise when you put faith in someone who lets me down so completely. I feel for those people to a great degree. Not everyone thinks as deeply as they feel, and no matter how often Ghandi insisted THEY were the guru, that he was a fake - it wasn't going to click with all of them at the reveal. I wish it had.

This idea that people are weak, or wishy washy, because they seek out balance in their lives through gurus seemed silly at the start of the film. By the the end I
saw no reason why his followers faith in him/his teachings were any sillier then
any of the established and ancient theist traditions we are more familiar with.
The people were happy, despite not knowing his secret in the same way people are happy with their "Gods" despite the lack of any tangible evidence of their existences. It's all ultimately subjective, but such is life in many aspects.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Pete-230 12 years ago

You are a bitter and angry man.

[–] savagesteve13 12 years ago

Something similar was done before on a college campus, but the professor got in trouble for it.

He started a political movement based on xenophobia, anger and extreme political views and tested it out on his students. Many ended up joining his "movement". In the end he told them they would meet the leader of the movement in person. Much to their chagrin he showed them a video of ADOLF HITLER as the surprise guest.

They made a TV movie about it, very interesting stuff.

"The Wave" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083316/

[–] savagesteve13 12 years ago

Something similar was done before at a Palo Alto highschool in 1969, but the professor got in trouble for it.

He started a political movement based on xenophobia, anger and extreme political views and tested it out on his students. Many ended up joining his "movement". In the end he told them they would meet the leader of the movement in person. Much to their chagrin he showed them a video of ADOLF HITLER as the surprise guest.

They made a TV movie about it, very interesting stuff.

"The Wave" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083316/

[–] MyOpinionIsFact 12 years ago

...that still leaves the remaining one in three that could have potentially been emotionally scared for life.

If they don't learn their lesson, it's their problem. You can lead a horse to water, as the saying goes.

By the the end I saw no reason why his followers faith in him/his teachings were any sillier then any of the established and ancient theist traditions we are more familiar with.

All the world's major religions are outright stupid. By exposeing how easy it is to trick people, it sheds light on how the major religions themselves arose.

[–] jonschaper 12 years ago

I think you missed the entire point of the film as much as the OP then if you think they just came out deluded. Most in the group found themselves happier and with greater personal strength in the end, without feeling the need to reject an of the "teachings". "Kumare" himself noted that he had never felt closer to others, and that being more like the guru he pretended to be might be a good thing. It never astounds me how many people brag about finding such things as the Golden Rule or a sense of community, peace or love or hope ridiculous, which may be why they feel such a strong need to assert their misguided and feeble sense of superiority.

[–] rgcustomer 11 years ago

"It never astounds me how many people ... feel such a strong need to assert their misguided and feeble sense of superiority."

Never was there a clearer example of the mirror.

[–] jonschaper 11 years ago

Elucidate, then. Otherwise you are just engaging in ad hominem attacks.

[–] DisturbedPixie 11 years ago

You act as if you KNOW the teachings and the message of the film above the others that you commented against, acting as if you are better than them in your understanding. Then you attack them for thinking they are wiser than perhaps someone like you.

Hence you should look in the mirror. It's not an attack, if it's constructive criticism. None of us are perfect and know everything, and I think that message was key in the film. I can only give you my understanding, and you can other give yours, but it is our collective realization that makes up the collective message of the film.

I think you can take both messages from the film, that spirituality can help some, even if the methods are ridiculous and a joke to begin with. Whatever helps you be the better you, I believe was the message.

I didn't think any of these people were being ridiculed and made fun of for the documentary, as some may believe. I felt what was ridiculed was the methods people put all their faith into, when they need not think externally when they are internally becoming better. I think that's why the unveil was so hard, because he knows that people could see what he did as a betrayal, but he felt he was seriously helping them understand that they don't need a spiritual leader to be great people. They don't need spiritual "tools"/symbols of any kind. I wish more people could take that message and be proud of the people they are.

Don't be nice because that gets you into Heaven. Be loving because you know it's you at your best.

I think he most connected with these people through just being a loving friend. He had to get their trust through an illusion, but if we all just allow each other to speak our minds and embrace what we can learn from each other, and then look to ourselves, it's better than any religion. Then we can look past what god wants, and look at what we want and how to be people other people want to be around. I think religion holds us back to be what someone else sees for us, when we should figure it out ourselves. I find it self empowering and what life is really all about. Discovering the best you.

[–] jonschaper 11 years ago

So let me see if I've got this straight: One viewer of the film gets nothing out of it other than the message that all religion is a fraud and people who pursue it are self-delusional. I point out that such an attitude is inconsistent with the documentary which clearly showed some of the people turning it all into a positive experience. Yes, that does require me to take a position that I had a better understanding of the film, god forbid that we live in a world where people are wrong some of the time, however considering that you yourself take a position about the content of the movie which is largely contrary to that of the person I was responding to, I cannot see how that is inherently a bad thing. Someone else then attacks me for daring note the sense of superiority that such a smug and shallow interpretation of the film denotes. God forbid that I judge one interpretation of the film on its own merits instead of passing judgement upon an entire segment of the population like the person I was responding to. I invite this third party to actually present arguments as to why I am wrong. So please note my amusement at the strong irony of the opening to your post. I otherwise find no fault with what you say despite suffering from the very human weakness of having an opinion, but clearly I'm a bad boy for not thinking well of people who hold such utter contempt for those who find meaning through religion. Mea culpa.

[–] jonschaper 12 years ago

I think the damage was already done with those four. I think they were seeking someone who would hand over all the answers to them on a plate and tell them how to live their lives instead of someone who would lead them to any sort of enlightenment. I agree, there are some people who seek value and meaning in life which may not jibe with the mainstream, and there's nothing wrong with that. "Kumare" made that point quite clearly himself when he noted that at the one so-called cult he saw nothing but happy people living in an environmentally sustainable, alternative lifestyle (although I wouldn't dismiss the idea that the leaders, who clearly lived in better, more modern quarters probably weren't so much in it for their own teachings) but there are some truly weak and desperate people out there too who have already been damaged and fall prey to so-called gurus. "Kumare" did try his best for them, and if he failed it was because he couldn't succeed, and NOT because he harmed or exploited them. The others (the large majority) took his lessons to heart and found their own strength.

[–] PunchB 12 years ago

By the the end I saw no reason why his followers faith in him/his teachings were any sillier then any of the established and ancient theist traditions we are more familiar with.

Exactly. They are all silly.
(and it's sillier THAN, not then.)

[–] Cookie-1 12 years ago

It's also sillier not "silliar" ;)

[–] PunchB 12 years ago

Whoops, typo. That was ironic.

[–] endecottp 12 years ago

What also is troubling is that Kumare got all the participants to sign releases to have their image and interviews used in a film based on false pretenses and when the "truth" is revealed those who were angry apparently had no recourse to have themselves removed from the film.

[–] DisturbedPixie 11 years ago

I truly hope they watch it and see what I saw. I don't think they should feel any shame or betrayal when he helped them as a friend more than anything.

He was teaching them that he was nothing special the whole time, that he was an illusion, and they couldn't get it until he shaved his face and admitted he was a US citizen.

It would seem they still don't get it, and maybe this documentary could show them a different perspective so they could see he was not trying to cause harm.

I think it's better they find out now than later that their trust in others could be used against them. They need to see that no one is perfect and no one is better than them.

I hope they will forgive him and see their part in the film as something of a lesson in life.

Like he said of them, many were very intelligent people, and they were his teachers.

My one thought about the yoga teacher who got up and left is that she may feel her job is bs as his other identity was bs, but I hope she just sees that stretching, relaxing and having a sense of community is good enough reason to use yoga. It may not be for me, but I don't see why it can't be useful for her or someone else if they enjoy doing it. Even if one move is just an air guitar motion, it's okay.... it's just stretching and moving your body while focusing on breathing, and that's fine. It doesn't have to have any connection to any sort of god idea.

[–] indykid80 12 years ago

I don't agree with the assumption that these people are necessarily worse off simply because they were "duped." Embarrassment aside, isn't it better to understand how these delusions are concocted, making people less susceptible to similar tactics in the future? The reality is that most spiritual leaders never acknowledge the deception, exploiting people's faith all the way to the bank. Again, I think when people are exposed to the process, which the argument I presume is that the individual must be involved in the process, in the end they are less susceptible to similar exploits and manipulation.

Now we could argue whether this particular experiment/documentary was the best method to demonstrate that point, but that doesn't seem to be the issue here. From my understanding it sounds like some people feel that certain topics are "off limits," most notably topics that deal with faith and religion.

Besides, you also have to accept that people volunteer for these reality-based events, exercises, television shows, etc. Inevitably, people are always going to be disappointed when they pursue answers, externally, whether it be in other people (deifying celebrities, political figures, spiritual leaders, football coaches, etc.) or institutions. And not to be overly prophetic, but if you can't hold your own private council about issues that matter most to you or find any value in the solitude which bring about those earnest moments of reflection, this is a good indication you probably haven't found any, yet.

[–] Stewball 12 years ago

goat94 wrote: "By the end I saw no reason why his followers faith in him/his teachings were any sillier (than) any of the established and ancient theist traditions we are more familiar with."

Isn't that the real point of the movie, to show how easy it is to dupe people in this day and age, much less following false prophets from hundreds or thousands of years ago? It's a truly teachable moment. And, BTW, false information is objectively false--by definition.