MovieChat Forums > End of Watch (2012) Discussion > How could you miss? (Spoilers)

How could you miss? (Spoilers)


The attempted hit at the end was a great scene, but... Three guys with full-auto AK47s firing at two targets from a distance of about 30 feet away. You would have to be the worst shot in the world not to even hit them from that distance. I get its for plot continuation, but just seemed a bit ludicrous.

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Based on how inaccurate AK-47s are in 1st person shooter games I've played, I can understand how they missed like that.

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Um. Seriously? You're basing your perception of the real world on a videogame? Am I the only one who sees a problem with that?

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that scene was *beep* retarded. it shouldn't have made it into the film or they should have put some hard cover between them and the shooters to make it more plausible.

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Ever seen an untrained person firing an automatic weapon on full auto? The bullets end up all over the place and the recoil presses the weapon upwards making you shoot too high. As seen in the movie, most of the bulletholes in the wall are over the characters' heads. Plus, they were firing at moving targets.

Sure, the scene could have been made more realistic, but I have no problem with how it looked in the film.

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They did get Brian in the hand, so they didn't miss completely. Having said that, I was slightly annoyed about that.


We call this the Loom of Fate.

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As I said, the uncontrolled recoil is making the assailants shoot to high. They're firing over "our guys' " heads. Plus, moving targets.

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Recoil is a problem, but they were in an elevated position and given the time and amount of bullets fired, both cops should have been hit multiple times.

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Not necessarily. Freakier things have happened in real life. But I agree, it was pushing it a bit. It could have been done more believeble, but I don't really have a problem with how it looks on film.

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I can see, and agree, with both sides of the coin in regards to the climax scene with the 4 gangsters and their AKs vs. the two cops ambushed and out-numbered, as well as out-weaponed.

I agree that the type of weapon used is not only known for its powerful recoil, but also known for not being accurate,..these issues, IMO, do play a big enough part for me to have easily suspended what little disbelief was necessary for the scene to be somewhat believable.

At the same time I can see the argument, of some, that they just found it too far fetched, and therefor unable to find it somewhat believable.

Also regarding the argument of the gangsters having fired such a large amount of ammunition from a distance that appeared to not be that far, with the two cops having basically gone unscathed(for the most part) for the vast majority of the shootout. I know some said the two having not been "hit" throughout the majority of the shootout was just way too far fetched..

I say that its more likely than not(in fact I'd say its far, far more likely) that one or both of them were actually shot multiple times during the scene that leads up to the conclusion of the two cops, alone in the alleyway, and we see them take the direct, point blank shots from the 4 gangsters.

IMO, both cops were quite likely hit multiple times during the whole shootout scene, but due to the various issues already discussed(ie. the gangsters inexpereince, as well as the type of weapons used) the shots that did make contact with the two officers landed in "safe zones" covered by their vests.

All in all, I didnt find the scene to have come across as over-the-top-far-fetched, as I know some believe it to have been. As with most Hollywood movies there is a necessary suspension of disbelief(yet varying in amounts from movie-to-movie, and sometimes even from scene-to-scene within a movie), and for me, in this movie it was NOT an amount that took me out of the movie, so to speak, or distracted me from the movie.

But as always, thats all just my own personal opinion, and others will see it differently.. To each their own.. I will say that I thoroughly enjoyed this movie, and I'm not typically a big fan of the cop action movies..lol...

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Maybe it was divine intervention, like in Pulp Fiction where Jules and Vincent avoided being hit by a six shot revolver 10 feet away...

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Jules and Vincent... 7 feet TOPS!;-)
or 2+ meters in my world

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Either way, the guy was extremely close :)

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Slightly off topic, but.... Standard "soft" body armor, as worn by patrol officers, will not stop (or hinder in any significant way) rounds fired from just about any centerfire rifle, such as the AK variants used by the "bad guys" in this scene. In order to defeat rifle rounds, a ballistic plate (made of hardened steel, ceramic, etc) is required. There is no evidence to indicate that the "good guys" were using such plates, as they are relatively bulky and generally easily noticeable under clothing.

That said: It's very UNLIKELY that both good guys would have made it out without taking a significant hit. But it's not ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE. As noted above, stranger things have happened in real life. But, seriously, those had to have been the two luckiest cops, being shot at by the most inept cartel hitmen imaginable...

Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.

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Hey Rodney, I remember asking you when the movie came out whether a 7.62x39mm AK-47 rounds would pierce through Officer Zavala's through his his back body armour vest, through his body, through his front vest and then finally pierce through Taylor's (Jake Gyllenhaal) front vest and a hit him (Jake) in the chest.

That's a VERY powerful round if it can going through 3 layers of "soft" body armour and also passing through two bodies! However like you said the standard "soft" body armour which all LAPD Officers wear (and which Director David Ayer made all the actors wear in every scene for authenticity) can only stop pistol rounds and shotgun buckshot.

Do you know whether a .45ACP or a .44 Magnum round would piece the "soft" body armour used by LAPD patrol Officers?

In order to defeat rifle rounds, a ballistic plate (made of hardened steel, ceramic, etc) is required. There is no evidence to indicate that the "good guys" were using such plates, as they are relatively bulky and generally easily noticeable under clothing.


It looks like back in 2013 the LAPD has gone with a new type of Body Armour from KDH Defense Systems which are "Level II and IIIA concealable body armor and polyethylene special threat plates".

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/lapd-selects-kdh-defense-systems-exclusively-for-concealable-body-armor-209136801.html

As I said, the uncontrolled recoil is making the assailants shoot to high. They're firing over "our guys' " heads. Plus, moving targets.


That is what excuse that Director David Ayer says in the Commentary that it is muzzle climb and the spray and prey that is the reason that they ONLY hit Taylor in the hand.

Another point not mentioned is that the AK-47s they were firing didn't have stocks to their shoulder making the muzzle climb 100x worse trying to keep your weapon trained on a target especially one that is running away. They are gang-bangers who aren't trained to use these type of assault rifles properly. They are Spray and Prey shooters!

If you are not willing to give up everything, you have already lost

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There is no "yes or no" answer to the question of whether or not the vests would stop .45 ACP or .44 Magnum. The test protocols for a level IIIA vest (the highest in "soft" armor) is as follows:

9mm 124gr full metal jacket (FMJ) travelling between a speed of 1400fps and 1450fps, which is generally submachine gun velocity

.44 magnum 240gr lead semi wad cutter travelling between a speed of 1400fps and 1450fps


That said, it would almost certainly stop a .45 ACP, as those are generally "slow" bullets with a wide cross section - the easiest type to stop. If the .44 Mag was an FMJ, or otherwise had "better" penetration characteristics than a lead SWC, then it might penetrate.

Lvl II armor is not rated to stop .44 Magnum in any configuration, which is not to say that it CAN'T/WON'T, but it's not designed to.

The "special threat plates" only appear to be lvl IIIA. If this is the case, they aren't going to be a hindrance to centerfire rifle rounds.

An AK round would be slowed much more by the body of Zavala than it would any standard "soft" body armor. In this video, a guy shoots an old vest with a 7.62x51 - the vest does basically nothing to the 7.62x51 round, as it passes straight through both front and back with little to no deformation. I've shot 5.56N through two vests on top of each other and it penetrated all four "layers" without issue. 7.62x39 is slower and fatter than 5.56N, of course, but it's still a "major" rifle caliber. I'm pretty sure it would have little problem defeating two vests. I'll look around and see if I can't find a test to that effect somewhere.



Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.

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Hey Rodney,

Seeing as though we are talking about the LAPD and its body armour, in the North Hollywood Bank Shootout in 1997 the High Incident bandits were wearing 18kg of Aramid armour (have you used that before?) from head to toe stitched together and also metal plates covering all their vital organs.

They also illegally imported armour piercing STEEL plated bullets for their Romanian AK-47s with Drum magazines. Can this Hardened Steel AK-47 7.62 round pierce through every type of Body Armour in the World today? Also apparently all LAPD patrol cars now have bulletproof doors so Officers can use them as cover in a firefight but then again I don't know what they are rated to withstand.

If you are not willing to give up everything, you have already lost

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Well...those assertions aren't completely true, from what I've read. According to Wiki (and other sources I've read):

"Phillips wore roughly 40 lbs of equipment, including a Type IIIA bulletproof vest and groin guard, a load bearing vest and multiple military canteen pouches for ammunition storage, and several pieces of homemade body armor created from spare vests, covering his shins, thighs, and forearms. Mătăsăreanu wore only a Type IIIA bulletproof vest, but included a metal trauma plate to protect vital organs."

Kevlar is a para-aramid fiber; so is Twaron and basically all fibers used in soft body armor (especially at the time of the NoHo Shootout). Aramid, therefore, isn't something unique or special in the construction of soft body armor. There was only one metal plate involved, though it apparently stopped a hit from a SWAT officer's AR-15.

Standard M43 7.62x39mm ammunition has a steel core, thus making it (at least according to the latest Dictum from the ATF) an "armor piercing" round. Likewise, M43 7.62x39m ammo has a copper-plated steel jacket. It's nothing unusual, it's the standard, and at the time of the NoHo Shootout it wasn't illegal in the US. And yes, it has decent penetrative capability, but anything rated lvl III or higher will stop it (generally speaking).

I can't find any info that definitively states what is in the door panels of the LAPD cars, if anything, so I can't speculate on what they would be rated. Lvl III or higher is not impossible, so it's conceivable that it would stop most common rifle rounds. (ETA: Here's a video of a door panel - though not necessarily the panel in use by LAPD, if they in fact use them - being shot by a .12 gauge slug, a 5.56 round, and a 7.62x39 round. Though we don't know the bullet construction of the velocity of the test rounds, it seems likely that these panels would be very good protection against most common rifle rounds, at least for a hit or two: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFMI6aJpofo)

Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.

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It's nothing unusual, it's the standard, and at the time of the NoHo Shootout it wasn't illegal in the US.


Are you positive these Armour Piercing 7.62mm M43 rounds were illegal in California in 1997? Only because two documentaries say that Mătăsăreanu illegally imported them from Romania.

Looking at your YouTube video it looks like bulletproof panels can easily be installed in Crown Vics so Law Enforcement can use them as cover if engaged in a firefight.

While we're talking about armoured vehicles I'm sure you've ridden in both a thin skinned HMMWVs and the newer up armoured Frag Kit 5 or 6 HMMWVs which adds up to 2,200 lbs to it and even makes it harder for troops to open the doors as well as putting strain on the chassis. The newer M1151 Enhanced Armament Carrier replacing the older M1025A2.

Lastly I don't know if you've seen them but I saw on the show Action Hunters they found a Ballistic Face Mask which they put around a watermelon and fired at it with a pistol round. It hit the cheek denting it pretty well but not piercing it, the person wearing it would probably survive but would need extensive surgery to put their face back together!

This is a video similar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz_SjahiAnM

Here is a full one they found:

http://internationalbodyarmor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/high-ballistic-face-mask-full.jpg

or half that you may have experience with:

http://buffalonews.typepad.com/voices_from_the_war/images/2008/07/26/facemask.jpg


If you are not willing to give up everything, you have already lost

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I can't say for certain regarding Cali's laws in 1997. They were legal under Federal law. Now, if they were imported illegally, meaning that the importation itself was illegal, rather than the product, that's another issue.


Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.

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Moron meth-heads, maybe high as kites at the time, who've possibly never taken the time to do any target shooting or testing and are more interested in how 'bad-ass' their weapons are than properly using them? Recoil, and muzzle flash in the darkness?

Not too hard to believe. Guns just aren't as easy to be accurate with as many people seem to think.

...then whoa, differences...

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If one is not properly trained with regard to the firearm he or she is using, he or she could miss.

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They're not exactly trained soldiers.

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