MovieChat Forums > Tomboy (2011) Discussion > Anyone disturbed by how supposed girls v...

Anyone disturbed by how supposed girls vs. boys differences are stressed

posted 13 years ago by fl1
74 replies | jump to latest

I know that it's the point of this film, but does society really "[hetero]sexualize" children so much? I mean, encouraging "boys to be boys" and "girls to be girls" and not just children.
I think (hope?) the film exaggerates a bit (and it's fine), for instance, when it seems that
* all boys are dressed in light blue, all girls in pink (and will want the walls of their rooms to be the same), and so on;
* no boy allows a girl to play football;
* 10 years old boys show off their "manliness" spitting continuously and urinating together in the meadow;
* Michaël is considered "different from other boys" just because he's not so gross (implicit suggestion: that's because Laure is a girl, see also when she plays with Jeanne or patiently waits for her to portrait her);
* 10 years old boys and girls play the "heterosexual lovers" role embracing, holding hands and even kissing each other on the lips (something I'm sure was unanimously considered very stupid by my classmates until the 5th grade), and not as a sign of friendship, to the point that it's declared "disgusting" between two girls;
etc.

[–] hannah2of8 13 years ago

Girls should be told they are girls and boys should be told they are boys. They are all children, just like we are all adults, some male, some female. Your sex is not something you should get to choose before you hit puberty. Everyone is born the way they are meant to be.

Did I leave the stove on?
I did leave the stove on!
No... I turned the stove off.

[–] aem_prins 12 years ago

I think you're totally wrong here. The mother in the movie takes the exact point of view you're posing here, and from that moment on I was afraid to death the kid would kill itself. You should probably take a look on this site: http://transsexual.org/. Transsexuality is a disorder that can be found in the brains, it's an factual proven event that occurs to one in then thousand kids. The best thing to do when your kid shows signs of it (and I think in this movie from the first scene on it was obvious that Laura felt 'different' and stressed out about it) is to go to see a psychologist and talk about it. Ignoring it solves nothing and can lead to disastrous endings. I think that we should really not want that, with something as unimportant as gender identity.

[–] shayg 12 years ago

Transsexuality is not a disorder, though, just a rare difference. It's cast as a disorder in the system that requires that people act a certain way based on their genitalia.

[–] mldardar 10 years ago

Genitalia is what determines the sex of us on Earth. And under normal conditions, the genitalia has hormonal differences which cause people to act a certain way. Not because a parent taught them to act male or female. The rare differences are abnormal, not normal, not common.

Under our clothes, we are all naked!

[–] Suskis 11 years ago

transexual at 10 years? are you joking? the girl is just growing up and she's living a normal moment of gender fluidity. nowhere in the movie we are told she wants to be a boy. what we know is that she wants to be accepted.
I think that LGBT awards hurt this movie a lot with all their awards. this movie is now believed to be about how people become lesbian or transgender.
but the open ending of this movie is about being accepted, not about gender disphoria.
And I am a former crosdresser, so I know what's the difference between desire of being liked and desire of being someone else!

'What has been affirmed without proof can also be denied without proof.' (Euclid)

[–] squeezebox 11 years ago

I friend of mine is transsexual and she knew it by the time she was six.

The last thing horror fans should be is elitist.

[–] Soodinum 10 years ago

A lot of six year olds would live on chocolate cake, never go to bed, and draw on all the walls with crayons, if allowed. A lot of six year olds believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, and think Ronald McDonald is real. There's a reason we don't let them make huge calls on how life is or how it will go.

'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings.

[–] caroline-189 10 years ago

I am sorry, but being in a similar situation myself when younger I am outraged by the comments above.
The sex of a child is not related with the sexuality of a child.
I say this because at this age children play and naturally explore whatever they feel at any given time.
This is not related to sexuality, ie who they ill be attracted to. It is our disgraceful society that decided boys must be the ones who play football, enjoy play fights and wear blue. And vice versa - dolls netball and pink for girls. We then brainwash our kids into believing this is the only way of thinking and being. It is all garbage - why cant a girl like blue and play football, a boy play netball and wear pink? its about which sport you like, which colour you like, not whether you are gay bisexual or otherwise for doing so.

[–] emerset 10 years ago

I have to agree with you.
I mean, who are we to determine what gender the protagonist wants to self-identify as if they don't even know what that is? Sure it's harmful to force a gender-role like the mother in the film but it's also harmful to presuppose that a troubled kid wants to be a transgender.

[–] missmarch15 9 years ago

nowhere in the movie we are told she wants to be a boy.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT? The whole movie is about that!

follow me on twitter: @JuliannaBastos

[–] JahWoo 8 years ago

She wants to continue passing as a boy as she's hiding she's a girl. That doesn't mean she "wants" to be a boy.

There is a scene or two that suggest maybe that what she "wants" but the tone over all is she wants acceptance. (Using she because the character is identified as a she least someone decides they're offended at goes off on me about it)((which I'd probably never see since I never get notifications of replies and imdb told me everything works as it's supposed to))

[–] Roveston 12 years ago

transsexualism does exist, it's not like you can ignore it.

[–] aem_prins 12 years ago

I was looking for the 'like' button, but IMDB doesn't have it ;)

[–] Whatsifsowhatsit 12 years ago

Yeah, it's times like this you miss it. Your own reply to hannah2of8 was very likeworthy too. Especially the last half sentence.

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[–] muckydog2 9 years ago

Hoho! I was too.

[–] arc27 12 years ago

"Everyone is born the way they are meant to be."

You just said that, but do you believe it!?!

What if a boy is born who is meant to be more like a "girl" (according to our definition of girl)? What if a girl is born who is meant to be more like a "boy" (according to our definition of boy)?

[–] D_emon 12 years ago

http://togetherforjacksoncountykids.tumblr.com/post/14314184651/one-teachers-approach-to-preventing-gender-bullying-in

Now pull your head out of your arse. Thank you.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Whatsifsowhatsit 12 years ago

That was an excellent read, very heartwarming. Thanks for sharing!

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My vote history: http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=13037287

[–] LusitanWanderer 12 years ago

Yep, I agree with that!

Gender isn't 'choosable'.
I would be ok if Laure (who I think looks best as a boy xD) turned out to be lesbian, even though I think she admired boys a lot. Now, saying that she wanted to be a boy is a bit weird (I can't find a better word) and it freaks me out.

She can be a girl, who likes boys or girls or both or none, and who enjoys playing football and climbing trees and watching porn and getting piss drunk and swearing a lot (there are millions of women like that), but saying she wants to be viewed as something she can never be, makes me feel like something went wrong.

She needs to know that she is free to act however she wants but an identity is something that is born with you and it follows until the day you die.
She should be told she is girl; I wouldn't force her to wear dresses if she didn't want to, but lying, hiding and denying who she is won't get her far and it may not be healthy.

La jeunesse sait ce qu'elle ne veut pas avant de savoir ce qu'elle veut

[–] cackdickorator 12 years ago

So if someone feels deeply that they are a boy then they shouldn't live that way and be happen? Even though our society has made it easier for trans-people so they can live freely, she should just suffer because she doesn't feel a certain way? She already had it figured out and had friends, and their intolerance just ruined it. Oh, well I suppose her being different would mean that she doesn't deserve them.

HATTERS GON' HAT.

[–] LusitanWanderer 12 years ago

I'll try and keep it simple.

1. I believe she is free to act the way she wants to and I dont think that putting a fake cock between her legs should make a difference on how she presents herself to society.

2. Trans-people are not accepted by society as proper men/women. Unfortunate fact, reality is not an utopian world.

3. Lying is rarely a good option, she was convincing but it had an expiry date stamp on it and she lost the trust of her friends when she could've been a nice girl that's into sports and whatever manly subjects she wanted.

Short version told and this is just my personal opinion, roles are adaptable and changeable but adding/changing body parts to an already complete body is too extreme and it should not be how people who dont feel comfortable with conventional gender roles address the issue. Demanding somebody to change his/her body because she feels different just sounds wrong to me.

La jeunesse sait ce qu'elle ne veut pas avant de savoir ce qu'elle veut

[–] obbah 12 years ago

1. So HE is free to act the way HE wants, just as long as he doesn't tell people that he is boy/identifies with boys?
2. Yes, I don't need a lesson on that by someone who clearly confuses trans people and cis people who just happen to be unhappy with gender roles. What are you doing to do to change this "unfortunate fact" except lecturing trans people on what they should and should not do with their lives?
3. Laurie/Michaël wants to be percieved as a boy, what's the problem? Don't tell me that you've never lied about something personal. Now, supposing that your second arguent is correct (and I definitively think it is) isn't that all the more reason for trans people not to present themselves as transsexual?

Once again, this is not simply about feeling uncomfortable with gender roles. This is about some people wanting either to live and to be percieved as the opposite sex and/or living in a different body.

Most transsexuas don't have the luxury of "demanding" doctors to change their body, they pay huge sums of money for it. Now, IF, they happen to live in a country where gender correction is a therapy included in public health-care schemes there are usually an incredible number of procedures and demands, yes, actual demands, attached to it. In Sweden, my home-country, transsexuals need to undergo sterilisation and a divorce for getting access to medical treatment. Upon legally changing their sex many kinds of legal documents are nullified and they may go from college-educated to officially being without even high-school dipomas.

Would your feeling of this being somehow generally wrong change if I told you that sex-change operations are the only cure known to bring trans people some level of psychological well-being?

[–] LusitanWanderer 12 years ago

My point on the film is that Laurie or Michael is not a transgender as we have, that I can recall, no indication that anything like it had happened before, and therefore I assume it is just a matter of not identifying with her gender role. only future would let us know what would happen.

As to real life, I come from a country (which as you probably already guessed judging by my nickname is Portugal) where the National Health System pays for the sex-change operation as long as they go through intensive psychotherapy to make sure that's what they want and if they can actually handle the change. We don't get that loss of qualifications but we also struggle quite a lot with bureaucracy.
Unfortunately what happens most of the times, for what I see on national interviews and programs, they still feel unhappy. Some because they thought they would feel different and others (and this is mentioned by many of them) because our society, or at least in Southern Europe, doesn't treat them like women nor men; people feel confused, face awkward situations and tend to avoid them. Sad but true.

I am not trying to deny that transgenderism exist, I am simply stating my opinion that gender-modification surgery shouldn't be the main concern if somebody doesn't feel good about being a girl who plays football and may or may not be sexually interested in other females.
I don't see it as a disease and therefore surgery shouldn't be the first line treatment, but it clearly does the job in some cases, according to testimonies.

PS: answering directly to the question of what I am doing to change it... absolutely nothing. I am completely at ease around straight,gay/lesbian,bi people but I don't know personally any transgender man/woman and maybe because of that (or not, who knows?) I am part of that narrow-minded society who doesn't know how to deal with the subject. We as a nation tried to be really avant-garde and ahead of our time, but we're failing miserably, judging by the results.
About the confusing unhappy cis-people and transpeople, yeah, maybe the problem is exactly that. I can't really imagine any major major differences.

La jeunesse sait ce qu'elle ne veut pas avant de savoir ce qu'elle veut

[–] shayg 12 years ago

You argue that being a boy or girl is a fundamental thing that is so sacred that it cannot be denied, but if it's so significant, if there's some deep essence behind it, why can't someone be born with one essence, and look like the other? But if you argue that there's no real difference deep down, that our distinction is just one we like to maintain due to their bodies looking different, then why would it be such a big deal for someone to want to be referred to as the other?

[–] LusitanWanderer 12 years ago

quite simply, because in the present days that will lead to feelings of confusion, loneliness, being misunderstood and most likely rejection and bullying by the remaining society.
PS: I think there is a difference between being a man or a woman, but people are slowly getting used to new patterns of behaviour by both genders, eg: men working out and wearing tight clothes, women leading groups of work and living on their own (lousy examples but they are still proof that modern society is open to changes, little by little)

La jeunesse sait ce qu'elle ne veut pas avant de savoir ce qu'elle veut

[–] shayg 12 years ago

So being referred to as a gender you identify with deep down would lead to confusion, loneliness, being misunderstood, but being referred to as a gender you don't identify with (but others see you as) will lead to clarity, connection, being understood? I think it's the opposite. I think you may be referring to other people's confusion, but that can be resolved by education and a willingness to delve deeper into the issues.

[–] LusitanWanderer 12 years ago

maybe Im just not that hopeful about the ability to change other people

La jeunesse sait ce qu'elle ne veut pas avant de savoir ce qu'elle veut

[–] missmarch15 9 years ago

"being misunderstood and most likely rejection and bullying by the remaining society"

Sweetheart, we can't control other people but we have control of ourselves and that kid is a transexual. Bye.

follow me on twitter: @JuliannaBastos

[–] Whatsifsowhatsit 12 years ago

"Demanding somebody to change his/her body"? I hope you don't actually think that transsexual people undergo an operation and all that because other people demand it of them, so their bodies will fit their gender identities? If that happened, that would be awful. Instead, I think typically it's their own choice, and I don't see why that has to be a problem.

See, I think you're very much on the right track when you say identities are malleable and roles are adaptable etc., but what if that's not enough? What if the person feels uncomfortable not just with a certain gender identity, but also with a certain physical body?

EDIT: oh, I see, I misinterpreted I suppose. You probably meant they would be demanding someone else, like a doctor, to change their body. That still makes a wrong implication, I think - it makes it sound aggressive and unreasonable. I would just say "asking". But that's not a major issue here, I guess.

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[–] LusitanWanderer 12 years ago

Yeah, you actually got it right the first time: I kinda feel that society "forces" people to change their gender if they don't feel it's appropriate to act a certain way and still be a man/woman. It may be their own choice but most of them has unrealistic expectations concerning how they are going to be accepted in society.
About the physical body I cannot talk by first-hand experience as I never met a transgender but for what I've seen, the post-op result was not as self-fulfilling as one aspired it to be.

I am totally at ease if a person wants to do whatever they want with their own bodies. Right?
But what I feel is that nowadays society is trying to marginalize and label everyone who doesn't think alike.

La jeunesse sait ce qu'elle ne veut pas avant de savoir ce qu'elle veut

[–] Whatsifsowhatsit 12 years ago

Really? I've never heard of anything like that. But I guess the idea is that when people want to get a sex change, that's because they feel that's the only way for their gender identities to be accepted, e.g. a tomboy might feel their gender identity wouldn't be accepted until they had a sex change, and in that sense society would demand it of said tomboy, or force her into it? If that is the case, then of course that wouldn't be a good thing no matter how you look at it. It hasn't been my impression, but if that's what you meant before and given that it was your impression, I can't disagree with you in that sense.

I do also agree that it should just be okay to be boyish or girlish, masculine or feminine, regardless of your biological gender, without having to change your body to conform if you don't want to do that. I do think it's okay if you do as well, but I would hope that it'd be their actual wish, not something that's pushed onto them consciously or otherwise. I really don't have any personal experience or experience with anyone directly around me, so it's hard for me to make a judgment on that further.

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My vote history: http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=13037287

[–] LusitanWanderer 12 years ago

yep, spot on! mate, that's exactly my point of view.

La jeunesse sait ce qu'elle ne veut pas avant de savoir ce qu'elle veut

[–] Whatsifsowhatsit 12 years ago

Always nice when an online discussion ends well :)

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My vote history: http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=13037287

[–] LusitanWanderer 12 years ago

Lol, gotta agree with you on that as well ;)

La jeunesse sait ce qu'elle ne veut pas avant de savoir ce qu'elle veut

[–] shayg 12 years ago

I don't think people change sex merely because they are too masculine/feminine for their assigned gender in others' eyes. That sounds like the old idea that people change sex so that they will become heterosexual in others' eyes. Both of these frame it as someone wanting to fit in, as a mere psychological phase that a person can work through. I think that people have a sense of their essence that's separate from these, and this is why they want to be accepted by others as what they identify as.

[–] Whatsifsowhatsit 12 years ago

Right. That was my impression of it as well. And that, I think, is a completely understandable/acceptable reason to (want to) have a sex change.

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My vote history: http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=13037287

[–] scissorhands__emily 11 years ago

I will try to illustrate this by discussing a girl I know. She is an online personality. She's a lesbian and very butch. She has a short haircut and resembles a boy. She literally has people write her messages asking why she doesn't identify as a boy and other stuff. This girl may be butch, but she still sees herself as a woman. I think society does try to box people in. Because this girl resembles a boy, these girls want her to identify as a boy. They practically demand that she call herself transgender and this girl isn't.

Now, someone who is actually transgender may not even have an attraction to the same sex. There are actually many who are attracted to the opposite sex, but still feel they are biologically the wrong sex. To these people, dressing as the sex they feel they are may be enough. But for some it isn't and they want to get surgery done. Also there are transgender people that blend into society and you wouldn't realize are actually transgender if they didn't reveal that they were, so in many ways they could just take up the identity of the sex they feel they are.

I think our society still has problems with a lot of issues with gender and how people should be. If a woman is a lesbian but is really feminine, many think she should be straight and are confused by this. If a woman is butch but is straight, many think she should be gay and are confused by this. If a man is metrosexual or has feminine mannerisms, many think he should be gay and call him this even if he isn't. We expect everyone to fit these perfect boxes in regards to gender and sexuality and when they don't people get angry or confused.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] nascentt 12 years ago

You're either a troll or completely clueless, either way I feel sorry for you.Koalas are telepathic. Plus, they control the weather.

[–] square_zebra 11 years ago

You are completely wrong. There is no need to force things like gender on children. Not all boys are the same and not all girls are the same. It is not wrong for a girl to play with 'boys' toys or for a boy to want to wear pink.
The way we seperate children by gender leads to a void between human experiece and encourages sexism.

[–] saturnjwl 11 years ago

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=UW9CknJ-tZUC&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=transgender+womb+hormon&ots=_pDRFXPOiG&sig=fGjz69XA1vWxA9_01IesxOFySlU#v=onepage&q=transgender%20womb%20hormon&f=false

This is the best I could find for now, but scientific studies have shown that people are born transgender. It really has nothing to do with puberty.

[–] mldardar 10 years ago

I agree completely. So now people want to pretend there's no difference. Where are these posters from?!!! I don't about their planet, but as soon as a women has her first ultrasound exam, she's asking if the doctor can tell if the baby's a boy or a girl. It would be strange if when a child was born, no one asked "What did they have?", or no one announced "It's a GIRL!" or "It's a BOY!" What are people going to do now when asked what they had? "Oh, we're going to let IT decide when IT's a little older." Soon it'll be considered politically incorrect to use he/him/his and she/her/hers until SIA (sexual identity age), whenever that would be determined. I realize there are phyical abnormalities and psychological problems, but they are abnormal. Being confused about ones sex is not the norm. Most of the population is definitely one sex or the other, and they know it.

Under our clothes, we are all naked!

[–] missmarch15 9 years ago

If the baby is a girl or boy = biology

Ok, it was born as a girl but if it's really a girl, inside their mind, it's no longer biology.

Don't do that to yourself in public! The word 'Transgender' means it all.

follow me on twitter: @JuliannaBastos

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] PoppyTransfusion 8 years ago

What does bilogical sex have to do with the clothes we wear, or the activities we pursue, or the toys we play with, or the way we walk and talk? Gender norms are social, not biological. Girls are not anymore biologically predisposed to wearing dresses and high heels than boys are, but society pushes men and women into separate boxes that stress supposed differences more than actual similarities.

Clothing is not a good example when discussing gender. Being around young children suggests there is some inherent disposition to be boy or girl almost without regard to parenting. I would argue that there is insufficient research and data on the effect of parenting and family systems with regards transgender and sexual people to rule out the effects of society there.

I'm scared of the middle place between light and nowhere

[–] mulhollandpsycho 13 years ago

hahahahaha yes.
What a question!

I don't know what world you grew up in, everything you just described occurs in America, at least.

Also, boys are encouraged to fart around everyone.

Not to mention the fact that as soon as a mother (and sometimes father) find out the sex of an unborn baby, they begin to treat the fetus "as a boy" or "as a girl". The behavior of the fetus is interpreted to be masculine or feminine, depending on the results of an ultrasound.

Also, you say that 10-year-olds playing 'heterosexual lovers' roles was
considered very stupid' 'until the 5th grade'. A 10-year-old is typically in the 5th grade.

[–] fl1 13 years ago

I know the general pattern, but the film seems to exaggerate some things to me; I can't remember all the small details now.

Also, you say that 10-year-olds playing 'heterosexual lovers' roles was
considered very stupid' 'until the 5th grade'. A 10-year-old is typically in the 5th grade.

I meant 5th grade included, and at least.

[–] arc27 12 years ago

I agree that it exaggerates just a bit. But I'm sure it's quite possible to find communities that have a gender division as severe as that depicted in the movie.

[–] littlmonkey613 12 years ago

gotta say the gender line is actually under exaggerated in the movie. I'm so happy people were able to express gender in such a brave way. Gender roles are such *beep* I cant even.

NIN

[–] livingfortoday 12 years ago

I think I agree with this. However.
The movie is about gender and gender roles. Without the girl of the movie being mistaken for a boy - there is no interesting story.
I think the movie makes people think about gender and how narrow- minded some people tend to be in this regard. If the movie get's people to think "what does it really mean to be a boy or a girl" or "what's the difference between sex and gender" it has done it's purpose. And while I also think the movie should've and could've gone further - one could argue that the subtle approach will make more people think (I mean the ones that doesn't usually think about these things) because it's not a typical "in-your-face-gender-movie". It's quietness could work as an advantage.

[–] Screenwriter_Brandi 12 years ago

Yep and the emphasis on toys for boys and toys for girls. And pink and blue.

[–] mageauthor 12 years ago

I agree with you. When I was young, I wasn't even really aware of the gender implication. You were a girl because that's what you were told. Then you grow up and realize the implication of your gender. I was also confused a lot about Laure "pretending" to be Michael. Did she do it just so she can play "boy" sports with others? What would be wrong if a girl did the same things? I understand the transgender thing, but still there's this blur between how little kids really are and how they are socialized into gender roles. I'm especially struck by the little sister saying that having a big brother is better (meaning Laure becoming Michael) because then s/he can defend her against bad boys. Laure beat down that boy despite being a girl. Everyone was fine with it, until they find out that he's a she. Also, I really didn't buy the scene where that bully boy tells Laure to take down her pants so they can check her gender. Would a little kid really do that? I mean, kids may find the other sex gross, but they don't go to adult extremes. This movie, to me, was a like "Boys don't Cry" with kids. I felt that adult issues were kind of forced into them. There probably are transgender kids, but I don't know if they face the same issues (teens, probably). Even the way the kids talked (the six-year-old especially) was really mature.
About the sexuality thing, I had a crush when I was ten. I didn't know about sex or anything back then, but it was definitely a crush. It's not so unusual to see kids having love interests.
You should totally read Judith Butler's essay about gender being a social construction.

[–] Whatsifsowhatsit 12 years ago

I don't think it was that forced, and I did not find it unbelievable when they were going to "check" if Laure/Michaël was in fact (biologically, because that's all they'd be checking) a girl. I have no trouble believing that kids would do that in the situation they were in at that point. There's so much out there in the world that teaches boys to be boys and girls to be girls, that unless there is some strong counter-influence to balance that out and teach them that it's not such a big deal, really, I think they may very well indeed react at least somewhat aggressively to a situation like that.

I do think it would have been okay for her to play soccer as Laure - it might have met some initial resistance from the boys, but if she had just said "Just let me try" and they saw that she was good, I don't think they would have objected any more beyond that. Which is why I think there was more to it for Laure/Michaël than just playing along and doing guy stuff.

I do like that you mentioned the sexuality/ten-year-old love interest thing. I agree with you that it's not that uncommon for crushes to evolve around that age. I think it may be the rule rather than the exception. I know that I had a crush before I was ten (or maybe when I was ten), because I moved when I was ten and it happened before then. To be fair, I didn't know that's what it was, I just knew I really liked that boy and I wanted to be around him a lot.

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[–] pococurante 12 years ago

The coloring and outfits worn in the movie are likely an artistic choice of the director. He wants to convey to the audience that to a tomboy, it feels like there are two distinct sides and you can't be part of both.

Boys not wanting girls to play in their sports games is common. Boys also treat weak or overweight boys this way - no one wants a weak point on their team.

As for displays of "manliness"... these are things a boy would actually see over a period of months of years. It is unrealistic for the movie to show this like it's something that boys do all the time, but they wanted to show the kinds of things that boys would run into eventually, even though it might not fit in the movie's actual length of time shown. Sort of forgivable.

The "not so gross" part is maybe an actual flaw. Plenty of boys aren't disgusting and they aren't singled out for that.

[–] Whatsifsowhatsit 12 years ago

I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think the displays of manliness were all that over the top overall. A little perhaps, yeah, but not terribly. So definitely forgivable, anyway. As for the "not so gross" thing - that's not actually something that was said in the movie, and I hadn't actually interpreted any of the boys as "gross" or "disgusting", so I tend not to see that as a flaw in the movie either. But like I said, most of what you said I agree with.

The director is a woman, by the way ;)

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My vote history: http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=13037287

[–] Daannny 12 years ago

Society DOES [hetero]sexualize children that much
Just to let you understand the extent.
In the early 1900 Mills, a researcher, published studies that proved "sexual identity" as constructed by society is internalized by children as young as 10 months by the way their parents reinforce the social male and female traits every day. 3 year old chindre where forbidden to wear trousers if they were girls and to play with a broom pretending to sweep the floor if they were boys.

All this artificial gender roles started with the need to brainwash boys into going to war and dying and girls into staying at home and making babies to send to war when they grow up

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[–] mldardar 10 years ago

So what will make you happy? If we homosexualize children? They still need both sperm and an egg to make a baby, And one parent and one set of grandparents will still be step. Of course those things will also have no meaning in that world.

Under our clothes, we are all naked!

[–] Whatsifsowhatsit 12 years ago

Although I don't like it at all, I don't think it's exaggerated all that much, if at all, unfortunately.

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My vote history: http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=13037287

[–] aldorulez 12 years ago

I think this movie has portrayed exactly how children are. It so reminds me of my children, because so many things were exactly the same. All the games the children play in the movie, i've played when i was a child too, so i can relate.

All the boys love to play football, but the girls dont, but the boys still allow the girls to play (which they mostly suck at), so they quit playing. Well in this movie, they dint show the Lisa play football, but she tells Mikeal that she tried playing, but she was not good at it, and now she has to watch them play. Exact same thing used to happen when we were kids. The girls had to wait till we finished playing football, or they played something different till we were done, and then we'd play together something.

And all the boys would act all macho buy spitting and doing whatever kids try to be macho. It really does happen. I dont know if you have watched children that age play, but it does.

[–] fl1 11 years ago

Thanks. And this in what country?

[–] Doegred 11 years ago

I just watched it and I don't think the differences were stressed.

- I'm pretty sure the 'blue for boys', 'pink for girls' thing is not true, for one. I just went back and checked and the kids are almost always dressed in 'neutral colours', ie black, blue, red, green... Lise for instance is almost always in black, white or blue. One of the boys wears purple.
- They didn't let Lisa play (hey, maybe she really was bad at it) but boys and girls still played games together (the catching and running thing at the beginning).

As for the rest, well, I may not like it but it mostly rang true to me. Yeah, there was one scene where Sciamma (who's a woman, by the way - someone earlier in the thread referred to her as 'him', which is, well, interesting, considering) really emphasised the macho behaviour, but then I think we're supposed to be seeing it from Laure/Mickaël's point of view at a moment when he/she's trying to figure out how to 'pass' and which mannerisms to copy.

[–] fl1 11 years ago

Thank you, very helpful reply.

[–] saturnjwl 11 years ago

There are differences between male and female brains due to hormonal processes which occur in the womb. So it's natural for there to be differences between boys and girls before puberty. However, like in this movie, sometimes a baby girl, in the womb, can undergo the male hormonal process.... And so you get a boy brain in a girl body.