MovieChat Forums > Jodaeiye Nader az Simin (2011) Discussion > another question for an Iranian / Farsi ...

another question for an Iranian / Farsi speaker


I found "A Separation" to be a very thought-provoking and well-made film. One theme running throughout is about the class differences between the two families. One family owns two cars and is clearly middle- to upper-middle class; the other family is working class and struggling. If this were a US film (I am American) I would almost certainly be able to tell the families apart by how they speak--a regional accent or dialect, vocabulary choices, etc. Since I don't speak Farsi, I'd like to know if you can tell the two families apart based on they way they speak? Are there other things you notice that set the two families apart within contemporary Iranian society, although they all belong to the same broader culture?
Thanks for sharing your insights!

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PERSIAN speaker. In Persian, the Persian language is called Farsi, or to be even more correct Parsi. In the English language to be correct you must refer to it as Persian. However, post 1979 some have started to call it Farsi even in the English language. Most likely because of the waves of Iranian immigrants which came abroad and refereed to the language they native language as "Farsi" to others.

Anyway... Iran is a big country, different areas of Iran have different accents. E.g. Iranians in Esfahan have an Esfahani accent, those in Shiraz have that particular accent etc.. Azeri's of Iran have an azeri accent (they arent Persian, but when speaking Persian their turkish/azeri accent is visible). People from different social classes also have different accents to an extent. Those from northen parts of Tehran speak have a more "posh" accent.

Its important to know that although there are various different ethnic groups within Iran.. for example Kurds, Balochies, Lurs, Persians etc.. all these groups belong to the IRANIC race, they can be traced back to indo-european ancestors, and thus share the SAME iranic/aryan culture. For example festivals such as Norooz (iranian new year) have been celebrated by all different ethnic groups within Iran for thousands of years.


I hope I helped a bit :)

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Is Farsi an indo european language? I heard words other then Merci Pere, Pardon that seemed familiar.

My big complaints was the subtitles. It didn't translate half of what they said. We eventually switch to the French audio and it helped a little but we know very little French. It was very frustrating!

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BTW although one family is richer than the next in this movie, both are relatively deprived. The extent of poverty is more visible in one family when contrasted to the other one however. (Both are having financial issues, as are most Iranians within Iran at the moment due to terrible economic management).

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Yes, I understood that both families had some money troubles, but clearly their current standards of living were quite different.

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u see the problem of anti-government Iranians,is that no matter how much money they have,they always want more and the greed isn't filled .they always compare themselves with richer people than themselves,they aren't thankful for what they already have & haven't forgotten that before Islamic revolution ,many many people were so poor that couldn't afford a very simple daily meal.many people couldn't have clean drinking water and had to filtrate water that had worms in it.nowadays the welfare of Iranian people has improved very much but they won't open their eyes and just complain.

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[deleted]

Thanks for all who provided all the insightful details about Iranian culture/social system(s).

As a non-Parsi speaker (Chinese Mandarin is my native tongue), I find the language very soothing to the ears. Comparatively or not I find Mandarin to be harsh, I may just be biased and just can't tell as I speak it but with English as a second language, I guess my ear is tuning the difference with a reference. But with a language that doesn't "spell", it is like bullets; out of the chamber one by one as oppose to spilling it out like water. ;) (Though dialects like Cantonese is technically more "flowy" as it has more tones than Mandarin, but for all "intent and purpose" it is pretty much foreign language to me. I understand 5% what they say at best.)

And with regard to the urban/suburb way of life, I think most non-Western countries are similar if not very much so. The city life is the epicenter of people's pursue as it can be a “great” way if not the only way to a better life. This obviously is a very different picture to the West where it is exactly the opposite. I don't know at what time did the West started the shift but I think it is safe to assume if not assert that that is not the case in the past. I would guess the Industrial Revolution but I can't be sure. I won't speak for any other civilization as that would tend to produce more generalizations and errors/assumptions than one would warrant. But in Chinese culture, the fortified city has always been seen as the center of civilization as historically that's where the son of heaven (emperor) lived, albeit in the capital but that's still a city. All the wealth are contained within and it is safer when foreigners invade, so it must be good right? ;) The position of farmers and Agrarian elements of society degraded more and more as time goes by even though they were seen as more valuable and more esteemed than merchants. In modern times, it is especially so that they are looked down upon and even down trodden.

Interesting to see that there isn't too much a dialect distinction over social classes in Iran but in Chinese society, it is much more so. Take for example, modern day Mandarin, it is the official language and it is one that is almost taken for granted to be known and spoken by all. A bit of accent is not much of a problem but if you have a heavy accent in a place where Mandarin is the de facto speech, people would tend to think you are someone from a lower social class, like a farmer which is not much of a good image to be evoked when everybody is trying to get into the city life. In Hong Kong and Shanghai it might be abit different as there are much more regional dialect speakers but in formal occasions, it is Mandarin and with so many people from other parts coming in by the truck load, the national language is enforced consciously and subconsciously.(Don’t know exactly the percentage and occasions of utterance of local speech but anyone in the city "should" and would be speaking Mandarin one time or another. And again just to point out, both dialects are not mutually distinguishable with any variety of Mandarin based dialects. A few words perhaps but not much.)
(My North-east hometown's regional accent is pretty vulgar to most Mandarin speakers as there are alot of weird and funny sounding slangs and accents on words that it is a famous dialect for skits and comedy. So in this case, anyone from where I am from would (very likely)refrain from using it as aforementioned, so mentally linked to the imagery of country people and farmers that it is better to speak in more of a Beijing dialect which is basically Mandarin proper for anything formal and public.)

Anyway, that's enough about China. Back to Iran! Back to topic! Sorry I kinda hijacked the thread. Honestly I am not trying to display any sort of pride over my native culture, I just wanted to get discussion going by offering one cultural perspective which I know much more about than others in the formulation of cultural exchange and comparative analysis and understanding. If anyone feel this post is excessive or being too impudent, please say so and I will remove.

I just wanted to say something and this film is a great one, one I haven't chanced upon for a while.

Oh and one question: Does it mention anywhere the story is in Tehran? Is it? If it is, did Parsi speakers just knew it by the way they spoke?

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minamelandme :
"before Islamic revolution ,many many people were so poor that couldn't afford a very simple daily meal.many people couldn't have clean drinking water"
--------------------------------------------
As an Iranian journalist/writer/teacher , I can assure anyone on this board that this is completely BSh. How on earth can you compare our today's situation to 35 years ago ? The majority of our people are against this cruel government and your beloved supreme leader and yet you have the guts to come here and present such a false image of our country to the world ?
With the average monthly income of 200$ , yes my non Iranian friends , you read it right , 200 us$ per month , there is no poor people in Iran ?
There are so many people selling their kidneys so that they can afford a shelter , so many people working more than 18 hours a day so they can afford food for their family or send their children to a very average school which will alone cost more than their salary .
And yet , with no shame , you compare this situation to 35 years ago ?
Just look at this equation and judge by yourself :
(2012).1US$=22,000 Rial ( Iranian formal currency )
(1979).1US$=70 Rial
Compare and worship your "Supreme Leader " . Enjoy your beautiful life in this hell they made for us .
.
Shahab Habibi

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well who's responsible for the difference between dollars & rial ?we should ignore our rights & shamelessly be bullied so that the great human right "defenders" raise the value of rial?

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"Although one family is richer than the other in this movie, both are relatively deprived".

Relative to whom? The Simin/Nader household looked rather upscale - or at least solid middle class - by any standards.

Besides, I was also surprised by how modern Tehran actually looks.



"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

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I know your post is dated back to 2012, but your perception of the so-called Persian culture is not so accurate as you think it is. I don't know what you have seen or been exposed to, but your assertion of "...as are most Iranians within Iran at the moment due to terrible economic management", is simply absurd. If you are referring to the imposed sanctions that started circa Ahmadenjad, it is clear that they made the rich richer. I have seen the streets of Tehran, and I can't recall having seen so many luxurious European cars in one place anywhere else in the world.
It's obviously established in the film that Nader's family struggle with their current financial situation, and despite the fact that they are considerably more privileged than the other family, they are by no means "upper-middle class." Culturally speaking however, Nader leads a more advantageous life.

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I can't tell you that they have different dialects because in Iran we have many distinct regional dialects and accents which most of them have nothing to do with the financial status or social class. However, the choice of vocabulary is different in social classes. It is most felt when Nader speaks compared to the way Hodjat and his co-workers speak. They use different slang and use different words to express what they mean.

What doesn't kill me, makes me stronger.

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I was born in Iran. Came here when I was 2. I speak the language fluently but I really can't differentiate between accents. It's strange really my parents are both from different parts of Iran and have different accents but I can't tell the difference LOL

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There are some slight distinctions between the way they use language, socially speaking. Simin and Nader are well educated, their language is not as vulgar as Hodjat's. When accused of theft by Nader, Razieh starts swearing. Hers is a religious discourse which is distinguishable from her choice of words.


M.Q

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Very interesting! Thank you. Reziah is very devout, so it's interesting how how this affects the words she uses, even in anger. Some of this comes through in the subtitles, but I always feel I'm missing a lot of nuance.

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The families do not defer in the accent or the language they use necessarily, It’s the matter of education and scholarliness; note that Simin is university professor.

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But you have to accept that the language the lesser educated people living in Southern Tehran use is different from that of the well educated Northerners'.

By the way, Simin teaches English in a language institute, she is not a university professor.

M.Q

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I noticed Simin was erasing an English language exercise from her white board in the classroom. But I noticed they used the French "Merci" for "Thank you." At least I assume "Merci" is a borrowing from French and not a Parsi word!

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hi
Persian answer :
oh,Seriouslly u very good notice detail of the film and show a way that you gots smart :)
Merci came from french language to persian although its common, my father will be angry if i want to use it and told me use persian word, if i say: Merci My dad answer : Bache Kherci (means: Kitten Bear) :D


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"Merci" is the simplest form of thanking someone in Farsi. It just another French word that we have adapted hundreds of years ago along with many other French, Arabic and English words, so it's not something new.

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Merci means thank you, its a French word which is widely used in Persian. The most authentic Persian word for "thank you" is "Sepas gozaram"

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I do not agree. I have witnessed totally different thing from what u say. BTW how would u know about the language institute?

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[deleted]

In the U.S., dialect and accent are pretty inextricably tied to class differences. I think it's common in many cultures for better-educated people to speak in a similar way and use this as a marker to distinguish themselves from working or lower-class people.

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you are really smart!because you feel missing a lot of nuance i am Persian and i watch this movie one time with English subtitles and yeah i realized that many words and expression not transferring to foreign viewers very well i am sure if you could watch movie with a better translation you really enjoyed more

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I think a lot of subtitled movies are trimmed down in some way. You get the basic idea from the subtitles but the translation is not complete. Oh well. What can you do? I enjoyed the movie despite not knowing Persian. :-)

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Hi actually in iran there isn't that much difference in accent or words people use for different social classes(you know like in america black people talk differently),the difference comes from the geographical location one lives in the accent varies from city to city,and if you have noticed in the movie people don't curse that much you know the f word and alike there is 2 reasons for that the most important one being the government doesn't allow them to,second reason is that iran is still kind of old school so people don't curse when someone older or a stranger is present.

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Ive always wondered how Persian sounds to a non-Persian speaker!? does it sound nice to the ear? or is is harsh? if you know what I mean. People say French is good to hear is Persian anything like that or dose is just seem harsh and weird

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I was speaking Persian with my family at a restaurant, and a family next to us asked us what language we where speaking because they thought it sounded nice :D but im more interested in imdb viewers think lol

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rockin lol
so funny :D

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I do not find Persian "harsh" to listen to, but I am just one person with an interest in languages. I certainly can't speak for other Americans. In general, Americans are not very knowledgeable about other languages, except maybe the handful of European languages that might be taught in school (Spanish and French mostly.)

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Suusan if politicians were as perceptive and receptive to other cultures as you, we would truly have world peace.
:)

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To my ears, not harsh (like Arabic), but exotic.

Prepare your minds for a new scale of physical, scientific values, gentlemen.

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emvan, I agree, but I was reluctant to draw the comparison to Arabic as it seems to be a touchy subject in the movie (when Termeh and her father are reviewing her vocabulary assignment, he makes sure she knows the Persian word for something instead of using the Arabic word her teacher taught her.)

Persian sounds "exotic" to this westerner's ears, but not as harsh as the glottal sounds in Arabic.

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Most Persians are really defensive of their language, we also hate being called Arabs lol. We are just incredible proud of our language,culture and history :)

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I am a native speaker of Swedish. I think Persian is one of the most beautiful sounding languages in the world. It's soft. Very pleasant to listen to.

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[deleted]

I dated an Iranian girl. Whenever she spoke with her family, I tended to ask what they were arguing about or angry about. She was always surprised about that, they weren't arguing at all! To me, it always sounded like they were angry with each other or arguing, even just normal conversation.

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Concerning the Persian language I noticed that some words were obviously passed on to Hindi as they are basically the same in Hindi (for example the words for 4 and perhaps). The same also is true for some Turkish words. It's a small world after all.

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Persian was the chief influencer of Urdu which developed when the Indian sub-continent was invaded by the guys from middle east almost a 1000 years ago. And Hindi/ Hindustani has words in common with Urdu. Thus Persian words like 'mushkil (meaning tough)' 'hafta (meaning week)' and many more are also there in Hindi. I guess Urdu will have a lot more in common ..

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Don't confuse anger with passion :).

And have you seen Eastern Promises? ~NaomiWattsFan2

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As a completely non-Persian speaker, I can tell you that I found the Persian in this film to be quite pleasant, and somewhat less tiring than French.

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I speak a number of languages and have always been fascinated by language.
I find Persian a nice sounding language,and while Arabic is harsher,I often find it beautiful. For my ear, the most ugly languages are cantonese and german. An interesting exercise for judging a language (for identifying your own preferences, that is) is to listen to poetry read in that language.






The way to have what we want
Is to share what we have.

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I am a Persian speaker.
What a beautiful movie! I thought the translations in the sub titles were not refined enough and too simple at times.
To answer your question, the languages used do reflect their social statuses indeed. The middle class is much more secular while the lower class uses more references to religion. Beyond the religion you recognize other choices of words as well. Simin's family is middle class and cannot be considered upper class. The upper class in Tehran is much wealthier. The word "merci" however is used by all.

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