MovieChat Forums > Smash (2012) Discussion > Found this trolling DataLounge

Found this trolling DataLounge

posted 9 years ago by twee-de-bourg
12 replies | jump to latest

https://www.datalounge.com/thread/13474114-megan-hilty

I shouldn't really say too much, but it's anonymous here, so what the hell: Spielberg did not like overt theatricality and he did not like Megan. Every note he gave was about how her part should be recast. His notes were often personal and not constructive, and he rallied other producers to join this bandwagon. Other members of the creative team stepped in to defend her and her job, and were punished for doing so: Theresa Rebeck's first fight with producers was over Megan, which set the tone for the first season and her departure, and Marc and Scott were "punished" for defending Megan by having their contributions eventually reduced to just Megan's storylines, which they were not unhappy about...

As feedback rolled in during the first year, and it was mostly negative, Spielberg became convinced that his fixation on Megan was correct and he stepped up his attacks in what I personally believe was a campaign to drive her away from the show. It got to the bullying or hazing level. That's when Bob Greenblatt stepped in and white-knighted Megan, since he was a big fan of hers after seeing her in the LA run of Wicked. There were a couple other little toxicities floating around the production at the time and Bob cleaned house on all of them. He also became Spielberg's public enemy number one, but Bob pulled rank as the head of the network.

Shots were fired when Jamie Cepero was not asked to return as Ellis--Bob Greenblatt made the case that the character was mocked and loathed in just about every write up, and was even the subject of some very negative articles about the show. Focus groups were scathing on that character too. Ellis, however, was Spielberg's favorite character(!). When Bob finally won a consensus that Ellis had to go, Spielberg was defeated and his interest in the show (and his attacks on Megan) waned.

Bob did what he could to right the sinking ship by bringing in a new runner and rehabbing Megan's character into someone audiences could root for. He also thought a major problem with the first season was that Karen Cartwright's successes seemed unearned and hollow (another result of Spielberg's meddling), so he fought to make her arc less preposterous. All good ideas, but too late... by that time we had earned the label of High Camp Trash, and the writing was on the wall.

Throughout all of it Megan was the picture of professionalism and poise. Also really sweet and goofy-fun, in the way of theatre actors.

[–] smgfans 9 years ago

Spielberg met with McPhee as early as 2006 and wanted something to showcase her. She was his number 1 choice for Smash. It's a shame he let his preference of her affect his judgement so much and want Hilty off the show. They were both excellent and very different performers. There is a very noticeable shift early on in season 1, where Ivy is the villain and Karen is the hero. It's a shame they couldn't both be deserving of the role of Marilyn and not force us to root for just one.

I thought the biggest problem by a clear mile in season was Messing. They hired a first rate, versatile, Emmy winning actress and gave her a storyline that had nothing to do with the central arc of the show. It was so confusing that this show about the behind the scenes stories of a Broadway production was suddenly showing us a couple fighting about adopting a baby from China. At least in season 2 they utilised Debra properly.

Here's an idea: next time, instead of being late, just *beep* on my face-Emma Stone

[–] twee-de-bourg 9 years ago

Sweety, say what you mean. You're trying to say he created the whole show to showcase McPhee, when like, nothing in my post had anything to do with Karen so why bother?

It's true that: "There is a very noticeable shift early on in season 1, where Ivy is the villain and Karen is the hero." The scripts shot are secondary to the scripts and plot for Showtime, where blah blah stuff. Things just went super wrong wrt tv, for everyone.

I too am still bitter that the show had issues with telling or even letting us believe both girls could play the part. If nothing else, it's about Broadway. Literally for a show to be successful on Broadway someone else needs to successfully play that part. It's theatre. It's Live. It works or it doesn't, but every single night is different and by like physics the whole "that was perfection no other counts" mentality is just absurd. It's offensive and should be fought against as a feminist issue.

I mean I think they tried, with the "two versions" of the script. They just massively failed, on several levels, the most annoying being that they never explicated just what the difference was. Especially since they'd already established a false baseline of stereotypes for who and what Marilyn Monroe was.

"I thought the biggest problem by a clear mile in season was Messing. They hired a first rate, versatile, Emmy winning actress and gave her a storyline that had nothing to do with the central arc of the show."

Then what you mean is the biggest problem is the writer/Julia, since Messing has to play the character she'd given.

She's definitely better in season 2. My favourite moments for her, and actually for the show, are when she bonds and works with Eileen, and separately with Ivy.

Like my main issue with this show is that at heart it's about women. Strong women. That's awesome. But season 1 was bogged by Rebeck unfortunately slaughtering all the women she loved, and season 2 by a male focus. It's so much irony I can't deal. And even Karen is pulled into it, her character slaughtered by a male bias that only makes me *facedesk.* I mean seriously? By the finale she's some fvcking jewel her incarcerated lover can't aid so the gay guy needs to loft to Hollywood stardom? Who greenlit this junk?

[–] smgfans 9 years ago

You're trying to say he created the whole show to showcase McPhee, when like, nothing in my post had anything to do with Karen so why bother?

So much of your post was about Spielberg's attacks on Hilty. I'm simply speculating that those attacks may have came from his infatuation/preference of McPhee and didn't want another actress/character to overshadow the role he pictured for Katharine. Ivy became a villain and the audience was supposed to want to Karen to win. That could have been down to his meddling, since the pilot did not showcase her as a nasty bitch.

Then what you mean is the biggest problem is the writer/Julia, since Messing has to play the character she'd given.

I just mean in general they didn't utilise an actress of her talents properly. She gave some excellent performances in season 1, but it was purely coming from her training and skill and not the writers giving her worthy material.

Rebeck's biggest problem was having too personal a connection to the Julia character. What she wanted for that character was veering away from what SMASH was supposed to be. The show was at its best when it was about strong women and men, vying for success in the theatre. The rehearsal scenes, the backstage dramas, the performances were what this show needed to be. I thought season 2 did a good job of fixing the problems raised in the first season. But they also created FAR worse ones, like you said...Jimmy. He was the worst thing that happened to the show and it's a shame because Jeremy Jordan was a great addition to the cast, just horribly written. I also felt Karen's rise to success was still too easy.

Here's an idea: next time, instead of being late, just *beep* on my face-Emma Stone

[–] twee-de-bourg 9 years ago

So much of your post was about Spielberg's attacks on Hilty. I'm simply speculating that those attacks may have came from his infatuation/preference of McPhee

Honestly I don't think that's really it. I think Spielberg had an image in his head of how the show would be acted and Hilty wasn't it - though it's possible he greenlit Hilty too fast as part of a shortcut to secure McPhee. Anyway, the role of Karen wasn't nearly as large even into early screenings of the pilot, Ivy was always the intended heroine previous to that.

I don't think Ivy-going-crackers was him either, because Rebeck's treatment of Julia is consistent with the belief that the more she loves a female character, the more she unfortunately destroys them to a mass audience. It does seem like it was Spielberg's people who prevented Karen from ever "failing" or "looking bad" though. Could be a symptom of larger disputes over the show though, definitely too many cooks in the kitchen.

Also I NEVER saw Ivy as a "nasty bitch." Which I think is a divisive point in Rebeck's writing and a large part of why Smash failed. Ivy and Karen were never viable alternatives for the bulk of the audience, functionally the majority of the audience could only sympathize with one or the other because of the writing.

Rebeck's biggest problem was having too personal a connection to the Julia character.

Yeah, word up with that. Ironically it's like what Derek said... theatre can't be therapy. I mean it can, but it has to be like Batman, not done like poor Julia :/

But they also created FAR worse ones, like you said...Jimmy.

So like I think Safran did some cool and unexpected things with season 2, but I also think the problem is the main characters became Jimmy and Derek, even though the show itself always and will always revolve around the female characters. If you know Shonda at all - her shows basically beat to the drum of what dudes she finds hot, and that's what Smash became in season 2 - the guys Safran wanted to have a thing for. It was so strange, but also why I'm so glad he never got to do a season 3. He admits he was going to sideline Ivy and Eileen, leaving us Karen, who was in So Much of season 2 but usually as a prop (notice how Jimmy was the real star of Rent2?) and excuse, and Julia who just melds in well with his gay and male characters without power differentials.

[–] smgfans 9 years ago

I think Spielberg had an image in his head of how the show would be acted and Hilty wasn't it

Do you think she was "too theatre" for him? I never found her over the top or anything, I thought she was great at acting for tv. The scenes when she's in the rehearsal room, it easy to see that Hilty is a stage performer. She owns the room, her smile is huge, she plays it big and that worked well in the context of the scenes and even more so because she didn't carry it into her outside the rehearsal room scenes. McPhee was always subtle. She has a screen presence about her that I don't think needs to be played up. If there are scenes where she is just sitting in the background doing nothing, she takes your focus.

Anyway, the role of Karen wasn't nearly as large even into early screenings of the pilot

That is interesting. It was apparently after test audiences that the popular feedback was wanting more Karen? That must've changed the whole premise of the show from being about one girls ascend the success, to two girls competing against one another for success. I also read an interview with McPhee where she said Karen was initially supposed to sleep with Derek in the pilot, get the role of Marilyn and Ivy would lose out but she refused to be a part of it.

Also I NEVER saw Ivy as a "nasty bitch."

The Cost of Art and Let's Be Bad are when she's at her worst. She was actively trying to get Karen removed. She said to Tom that Karen was too loud in "Wolf" over lunch. That was fine to do, Karen WAS in her face- but Ivy tried to embarrass her in front of the rehearsal room. After lunch, during rehearsal, Ivy stops them again because Karen is distracting her (even though Karen isn't anywhere near her face this time). She has Karen moved to the very back of the number and STOPS AGAIN. Ultimately, Karen is removed from the number. Later on when they are learning "History is Made at Night", Ivy gets Karen removed from that number- even Sam said she shouldn't have done it. It's not like Ivy shows any remorse when Karen is being told she's out of the numbers, her face lights up and she flashes a smile. She's proud of herself for getting her "competition" out of the way.

In Let's Be Bad, she is furious that Derek tells Ivy to work with Karen on some vocals. She admires herself in the mirror while on the phone and says she has "this thing she needs to do" and will "tell them ALL about it later"- if that's not translated to "I would rather not be here doing this and I'm going to talk trash about it when I see you tonight" then I don't know what else it could be. She then calls Karen a "chorus girl", acts defensive when Karen assures her she doesn't want to make things awkward, then tells her not to get ahead of herself because Marilyn (while alluding to herself in the process) can't be taught (what she brings). Then when Karen compliments Ivy on "Let's Be Bad", she is shot back with "Seriously, don't condescend to me" and tells Karen she doesn't care what she thinks and storms away. She was HORRIBLE in those episodes. It goes back to "The Callback" though when she first meets Karen. "That's so cute!" in the most patronising way regarding a scarf. Smiling with joy when Dennis shakes his head after Karen has a bad rehearsal. She just wasn't very nice. However, she eventually became the nicest, least corrupt character on the show.

Here's an idea: next time, instead of being late, just *beep* on my face-Emma Stone

[–] twee-de-bourg 9 years ago

Do you think she was "too theatre" for him?

Dunno. If/when he did fair enough, I've nothing like his resume. I know my mum watched the pilot, I wandered in then wandered back out, all during a Julia-at-home scene because I was like ... wtf does this have to do with Broadway? The answer was "not much" so I left and came back months later for other reasons but Smash still lost me initially because I was sold on something way more technical than we got.

That is interesting. It was apparently after test audiences that the popular feedback was wanting more Karen?

Kinda sorta. The Showtime pilot/script had Karen sleep with Derek and get the part initially. By the time it was at NBC it sounds like the screening audience was trying to connect with Karen because typically the novice character acts as a lens into the fictional world. That character is new, so are we, we learn as they learn sort of deal. Problem is they didn't pay off, and just gave us the whole Dev storyline whilst not allowing Karen to "learn" anything, which ultimately helped no one and just gave us a lot of weird political filler which I'm not sure -anyone- cared about.

It was always intended as vying actresses. McPhee has noted that the Showtime version of Karen had her sleeping with Derek and McPhee won't do nudity (which Showtime would have called for. Even NBC wound up fairly risque with all the sex and I feel a little bad for Hilty having to film it all first day, without having done it before, esp as her character Ivy was demonized for it and frankly, I think she pulled it off rather well.)

The Cost of Art and Let's Be Bad are when she's at her worst.

And I still don't see it. She's being passive aggressive and insecure, but I understand that, and compare what Ivy actually does and accomplishes to what Karen is written for and I will forever find the balance in Ivy's favour. We're talking Karen, who thinks Derek's (contextually) brilliant idea for a new opening to Hit List is merely an affront because the villain is singing a few bars of her "favourite song." Who preens and tries to "own" Derek's whole apartment by stripping her jacket when she invaded him to pimp JJ's songs meanwhile Ivy is stopping by with coffee for him because they are friends so very far that he'll repeatedly spend hours drunk on Ivy's stoop waiting for her to come home and talk with him.

If we're limiting ourself to the time frame... Look, whatever. I get and understand Ivy. I simply do not and cannot understand Karen, a 23 year old who doesn't know where stage left is, can't balance waitressing with a workshop (everyone else there had fulltime chorus gigs...), floats through NYC with the full financial support of father and boyfriend to dismiss at her whim, and who has not in 2 years taken any gig because she won't unless it's a lead. Holy Sh!t I wish I had that.

[–] writegirl1-2 9 years ago

I feel a little bad for Hilty having to film it all first day, without having done it before, esp as her character Ivy was demonized for it and frankly, I think she pulled it off rather well.)

Heh, have you seen her guest turn on Louis CK? (We may have discussed this in the past but, for the benefit of those whom don't know the board pre-wiped-clean). She plays a heckler, and was not told in advance that the other members of the “standup club audience”, would not be aware she was a heckler. She said everyone was cussing, hissing, and trying to get her to sit down and shut up. She’s got nerves of steel (or, maybe her agent knows you have to throw her in the deep end after a batch of second guessing in order to make her have nerves of steel; because Hilty has told the story on herself, where her agent said “They gave me no sides for this part, so I don’t really know what it’s about. Just go though. You’ll be fine.”) She also said Jack Davenport was a big help putting her at ease in the pilot's sex scene, IIRC.

[–] twee-de-bourg 9 years ago

Heh, have you seen her guest turn on Louis CK?

I have and she's awesome! It's even better knowing she was basically dealing with an improv situation, because she never breaks character. For me actually she did it too well, because I found her completely reasonable if a little picky, and found Louis CK to be really reaching and overplaying indignation just because he knew the crowd would be on his side, a dynamic I really hate. Ie, his behavior only makes sense knowing HE knew she was playing a heckler.

PS: super jazzed Hilty will be on Broadway next year! And Katie Finneran, who I also love, won a Tony for the role so... I'm just super curious.

[–] writegirl1-2 9 years ago

And even Karen is pulled into it, her character slaughtered by a male bias that only makes me *facedesk.* I mean seriously? By the finale she's some fvcking jewel her incarcerated lover can't aid so the gay guy needs to loft to Hollywood stardom? Who greenlit this junk?

Well, technically I think the end implication is, it was the (female, Southeast Asian...?) agent ("you're too good for Broadway!"), who was going to loft Karen to Hollywood stardom. (Or, maybe I'm giving them too much credit, that she was going to be "Karen's agent" and not some hanger-on. Also, I think the showrunner had to say she was an agent figure, I admit it wasn't apparent.)

[–] twee-de-bourg 9 years ago

Well, technically I think the end implication is, it was the (female, Southeast Asian...?) agent ("you're too good for Broadway!"), who was going to loft Karen to Hollywood stardom. (Or, maybe I'm giving them too much credit, that she was going to be "Karen's agent" and not some hanger-on. Also, I think the showrunner had to say she was an agent figure, I admit it wasn't apparent.)

Yeah, true thing Safran's both better and worse than that. Would be interesting to see Karen have an actual friendship or professional relationship with another woman. Closest we saw was Rebecca, who was kinda a mentor once she didn't give a fvck. Dunno if Safran would build out another female character really, unless she was intended to replace Eileen's publicist and act as a bridge from the movie to whatever Season 4 play Eileen would be planning in her 40seconds/episode.

The most amusing thing is probably Karen would incidentally be a Hollywood star, even as the season wasn't about her at all. It's horrifying. It's the shiv in the gut while you're blocking the uppercut. I've been thinking hard about Smash lately, and esp wrt Karen I can't actually make any sense of the narrative at all. Nothing makes any sense. It's very disorientating. The only point can be "sheer luck" which is a rather... odd... story the way it's presented. And their commentary is subsequently baffling.

Mostly seriously happy we never have to see the moment Karen matures enough to actually hook up with Derek 'cuz it was inevitable and gross.

[–] TheDuchessofM 9 years ago

Didn't someone say this on this board or an entertainment website two years ago?

[–] twee-de-bourg 9 years ago

Possibly/probably. I've read pretty much everything and couldn't remember this - many facts are repeats but some nuances are new, to me at least, so thought it justified a posting.

Also Hilty is going to be back on Broadway proper so yay for that!