MovieChat Forums > We Steal Secrets: The Story of WikiLeaks (2013) Discussion > LOL @ the (previous) 3.9 score from 'IMD...

LOL @ the (previous) 3.9 score from 'IMDb users'


141 out of 292 users voted this a "1"?

Can we say..."hysteria" and "politically-motivated ballot-stuffing?"



Nice try, folks, but Alex Gibney is one of the best in the business and this documentary is getting great reviews. One can argue that it's flawed, but there's no way the film deserves so many "1" votes.

EDIT: two days after I started this thread, the aggregate score jumped to 4.2 (June 8th)

EDIT: As of 6/12, the rating is up to 4.7

EDIT: As of 6/15, the rating is up to 5.0. (And I've rated the movie a full 10/10)

EDIT: As of 6/16, the rating is 5.2
EDIT: As of 6/17, the rating is 5.4
EDIT: As of 6/18, the rating is 5.5
EDIT: As of 6/19, the rating is 5.6
EDIT: As of 6/23, the rating is 5.7
EDIT: As of 7/13, the rating is 5.8
EDIT: As of 7/21, the rating is 5.9

reply

You've come under-prepared. It's not rated low because it casts WikiLeaks (or Assange) in a bad light, it's because the documentary is so full of errors and 'plot holes' that it's practically a work of fiction.

http://wikileaks.org/IMG/html/gibney-transcript.html

Surely "the best in the business" would hold himself to a higher standard of integrity. Gibney is a gifted filmmaker, but he gets off on powerful statements that aren't always concrete. It was a mistake to only get the story from the side of the WikiLeaks detractors, especially considering that there's a powerful debate on both sides on the subject. It's no surprise that people haven't taken kindly to the subject matter.

At the end of the day, it's flashy and controversial, and he'll probably make a lot of money. However, his prowess as a filmmaker doesn't speak towards his integrity.

reply

I have read the WikiLeaks annotations of the script; they are playing semantics with the words of the script for the most part, trying perhaps to pick apart whatever credibility the movie has with lots of little cuts.

All Art is pretense.

reply

No, they're not just "playing semantics with the words of the script". I saw tons of errors in the movie, and a lot of them were clearly deliberate edits to make the audience think some things that aren't true. There are some nitpickings in the transcript, but they just add to that.

http://www.imdb.com/user/ur5447903/ratings

reply

Name several of the most important errors.

reply

A few questions for you.

What "not always concrete" statements would translate into a "1" vote for HALF the users voting on this movie so far? (And what did you rate it?)

What is your best guess about the future trajectory of the aggregate score for this movie by, say, next year -- up, down or sideways?

What are your thoughts on Assange?

reply

[deleted]

Exactly and I've started additional threads calling attention to that fact.

reply

I think that Assange is a great man. I think that he's a larger than life idea. For better or worse, he's touched more lives than any of us ever will. By the end of this year, I think there will have been 8 documentaries that center around him. That alone should stand as evidence that he's an interesting, multifaceted character.

I haven't rated the film yet, as I want to give it a chance before I officially confirm or condemn the content. I've read the annotated script, and the disputes certainly aren't semantic.

There are two sides to any story, and the best documentary filmmakers should strive to flesh out both sides before they position an opinion from their audience. In this sense, I believe that Gibney has slighted himself by not giving his film the chance to be the shining pearl of truth that it could have been.

I found this excerpt on Assange's page:
True_Grits -
"Is Assange a cult figure or merely arrogant?"

Not really an objective study of his personality, is it? You can't change people's mind on this subject. He has strong supporters, as evidenced by the low IMDB score -- he also has strong detractors, as evidenced by True_Grits' vocal opinion on the matter. I don't think that there's any productive debate to be found here. My qualm is with the spin that's put on the information contained within the documentary, as evidenced by WikiLeaks for the world to see.

I wish Gibney the best of luck in his endeavors, but nobody whose opinion is worth knowing will be affected by this documentary. Documentaries of this kind are simply a circle-jerk of reaffirmation. When I say 'of this kind', I include WikiRebels, and Underground: The Julian Assange Story. I also include Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room, and Taxi to the Dark Side. They're made specifically for people who have already made up their minds, and simply want a reaffirmation of their opinion so that they can pat themselves on the back.

reply

[deleted]

"that annotated script was prepared by Wikileaks"

Yeah, and?

"and is completely biased"

It is fully sourced. Are the facts biased?

http://www.imdb.com/user/ur5447903/ratings

reply

Funny you should ask. Facts are selected, framed and interpreted. A good part of Assange's criticisms of this document concern just that.

reply

How ironic, since Gibney's movie is full of bad selective editing. Pointing out his errors is not framing, and *full* sources are given.

http://www.imdb.com/user/ur5447903/ratings

reply

"For better or worse, he's touched more lives than any of us ever will"

So did Hitler

reply

> So did Hitler.

So did Jesus Christ. So?

http://imdb.com/user/ur2019270/ratings

reply

My point being it was a pretty random thing to say. For better or worse he has still touched a load of lives. So what? He did some good, he seems to have gone a little doolaa and done some bad but either way he has touched lives so lets not worry about it? Be Hitler, be Jesus, just touch people along the way and all good?

reply

Totally agree with you, inertiia.

reply

both resulted in death of millions of people!

---------------------------------------------
Applied Science? All science is applied. Eventually.

reply

First a disclosure: Although I'm a big admirer of Gibney's work, I'm not wholly uncritical of it. On that basis, what is your best hunch about my - to use the expression of another poster - "political agenda?"

Contrary to what you've written, I am far from a "vocal detractor" of Assange's and I invite you to respond specifically to the charges leveled against him by his closest associates and supporters.

I don't think any man is an idea, though he may come to champion one and become associated with it. I believe all great people are, in the end, flawed and complicated human beings just like the rest of us, and not necessarily as consistent or trustworthy across the board as we'd like them to be. For good and for ill, we are all emotional creatures.

"Shining pearl of truth" is not an expression I'd ever use. It connotes a static product rather than an imperfect, open-ended, question-mark sort of film. It's also too "worshipful." I guess I'm just an iconoclast at heart.

Which reminds me, are you familiar with the book "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer? If so, what do you think of it?

Almost all of us suffer heavily from confirmation bias at least some of the time. Many of us are also prone to pick sides rather than approach a complex subject with skepticism and a hefty dollop of ambivalence. But it's the hallmark of a good documentary not to draw the lines too neatly and to raise questions worth considering.

You say you've read the annotated script put out by Assange & co. What makes you think that's inherently more trustworthy than Gibney's final product?

reply

...Or you could just get a life.

Be The Ball

reply

How very unbiased of you to vote this crappy film a 10 while making fun of people doing the opposite, and starting several threads to do that.

http://www.imdb.com/user/ur5447903/ratings

reply

It's a highly nuanced, and critically acclaimed film which I've actually SEEN.

Whenever you have a situation in which the ratings of more than half the EARLY VOTERS are grossly at variance with those of critics and RT audiences, it's a sure sign that something is up which has nothing to do with the actual merits (or demerits as the case may be) of the film.

reply

There are (were) only a handful of reviews, and a lot of those critics don't know the facts of the matter, unlike many of the early voters, like me. They'll judge the movie as if it were all true and neutral. Cinematography is not the point here (although I hate the hipsterish and many years too late style of the movie, fake network graphs, SnorriCam et cetera), it's about the facts. He essentially cheated by making a "documentary" where the facts are often false or misleading.

The film has been available as Torrent/VOD for 10 days, btw, so don't overemphasize the fact that you've seen it.

critically acclaimed < even the *beep* movie is critically acclaimed and unfortunately, the nuances are wrong.

http://www.imdb.com/user/ur5447903/ratings

reply

[deleted]

More like: if you make up *beep* facts, you are against me.

> That by building up himself as the hero of it all

Started by the media, btw, who wanted a person who was responsible. Also, haven't you noticed that the whole film is about the personalities of the story, almost nothing about the impact/the creation/the philosophy/et cetera?


> If you watch the film without bias

Again with the objectivity. You can't watch movies without bias. YOu can try, but it'll always be there.

> he just questions certain developments in Assange behavior.

He goes far beyond that.

http://www.imdb.com/user/ur5447903/ratings

reply

More like: if you make up *beep* facts, you are against me.


This is precisely the point at which a cause-oriented group and movement turns into a cult.

The NON-CULT way of responding to spin you don't like, or information you believe is false, is to challenge the representation and uphold the principles of accurate, fair reporting

I don't hear Nic Davies talking about others being "for him" or "agin him." I don't hear other investigative journalists or filmmakers talking in such a fashion.

You know who talks like that?

Cult leaders. Nixon. Bush. Cheney.

Great company Assange has found there.

reply

I asked you before and I'll ask you again.

You wrote, "I saw tons of errors in the movie, and a lot of them were clearly deliberate edits to make the audience think some things that aren't true"

Name the most egregious among these "tons of errors".

There are 23 reviews up on Rotten Tomatoes alone (hardly a handful) and the movie has attracted plenty of attention from politicos. Including Andrew O'Hehir (see thread on this board) who is hardly unfamiliar with the facts of the matter.

The film has been available as Torrent/VOD for 10 days, btw, so don't overemphasize the fact that you've seen it.

The outpouring of "1" votes started well before that.



reply

> Name the most egregious among these "tons of errors".

It's less massive errors and more the quantity of them. If you read the annotated transcript, you could see for yourself.

There's also a lot of allegations without any proof (Assange gave cables to dictator, informers deserve to die etc.), lying by omission and using snippets of video or other people to say bad things about Assange without straight out lying. Essentially like most politicians or spokesmen lie.

> The outpouring of "1" votes started well before that.

You make it sound like there isn't any outpouring of 1's on any movie. It's jsut that the rating that goes through all of IMDb's filters to prevent voting fraud is a deservedly bad one.

http://www.imdb.com/user/ur5447903/ratings

reply

It's less massive errors and more the quantity of them

In other words, you can't name any egregious errors.
If you read the annotated transcript, you could see for yourself.

I did. I was hugely unimpressed. That's why I turned to you. And what I read in your post only reinforced the impression I had already received that Assange supporters are only uncritically parroting what Assange wrote in the "Annotated transcript". (Itself a misnomer since it was not based on the final script).
There's also a lot of allegations without any proof (Assange gave cables to dictator, informers deserve to die etc.

Okay, let's take a closer look at those two complaints, pathetic as they are.

1. "Informers deserve to die": David Leigh and Luke Harding, reporters for The Guardian then working with Assange on the contents of the cables have stated that Assange was initially reluctant to redact the names of informants present in some of the cables, quoting him as saying "Well, they're informants, so if they get killed, they've got it coming to them. They deserve it."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_diplomatic_cables_leak

And what did Assange say on record about this? "In a rare admission in the film ["True Stories: WikiLeaks"], Mr Assange conceded it was a "regrettable oversight" but the ultimate blame still remained with the US military and that information "should never have been included... and falsely classified".
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/assanges-latest-leak-his -own-story-of-how-he-fell-out-with-backstabbing-press-6268887.html

That tells me more than Assange seems to realize about his character.

2. wikileaks giving cables to a dictator: There IS evidence and as someone who has hinted at some sort of involvement with WikiLeaks, you ought to know. That evidence comes from none other than ex-WikiLeaks employee James Ball.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/30/exclusive-former-wiki leaks-employee-james-ball-describes-working-with-julian-assange.html

The reason I quit was because of a friend of Julian’s whose activities were unstomachable and unforgivable. That man was Israel Shamir. Shamir is an anti-Semitic writer, a supporter of the dictator of Belarus, and a man with ties and friends in Russian security services. He and Julian—unknown to us—had been in friendly contact for years. It was a friendship that would have serious consequences.

Introduced to WikiLeaks staff and supporters under a false name, Shamir was given direct access to more than 90,000 of the U.S. Embassy cables, covering Russia, all of Eastern Europe, parts of the Middle East, and Israel. This was, for quite some time, denied by WikiLeaks. But that’s never a denial I’ve found convincing: the reason I know he has them is that I gave them to him, at Assange’s orders, not knowing who he was.

Why did this prove to be a grave mistake? Not just for Shamir’s views, which are easy to Google, but for what he did next. The first hints of trouble came through contacts from various Putin-influenced Russian media outlets. A pro-Putin outlet got in touch to say Shamir had been asking for $10,000 for access to the cables. He was selling the material we were working to give away free, to responsible outlets.

Worse was to come. The NGO Index on Censorship sent a string of questions and some photographic evidence, suggesting Shamir had given the cables to Alexander Lukashenko of Belarus, Europe’s last dictator. Shamir had written a pro-Belarus article, shortly before photos emerged of him leaving the interior ministry. The day after, Belarus’s dictator gave a speech saying he was establishing a WikiLeaks for Belarus, citing some stories and information appearing in the genuine (and then unpublished) cables.

Assange refused and blocked any attempts at investigation, and released public statements that were simply untrue.

Disturbingly, Assange seems to have a personal motivation for staying friendly with Shamir. Shamir’s son, Johannes Wahlstrom, is apparently being called as one of Assange’s defense witnesses in his Swedish trial. That’s not the only time self has come before principle.

And while Assange and his supporters complain about how Assange has been smeared, they have lost no time smearing Ball: "Since then, in a leak of the script of Gibney’s film, WikiLeaks has posted that I sold them out for cash (nope), was a wanna-be spy who interviewed for MI5 (nope), and stole their data—including, bizarrely, my own copy of a gag order they asked me to sign to stop me speaking out on what I didn’t like."

Assange's "annotated transcript":
Narration by Alex Gibney:
Suddenly, only two days after the release of the first batch of State Department cables, Interpol issued a demand for Assange's arrest for his failure to return to Sweden to answer questions about sex charges.
Assange's objection:
This is false. There are no charges. Julian Assange is not charged and has never been charged in Sweden. The matter, formally, is at the stage of "preliminary investigation". The fact that an Interpol Red Notice was issued for Assange's arrest and extradition, leading to his detention for more than 900 days, all without charging him, is one of the principle abuses in the case. The audience can't possibly understand the abusive nature of the situation after having been misled by Gibney in this manner.

Why Assange's objection is BS:
On 18 November 2010 the Stockholm District Court upheld an arrest warrant against Assange on suspicion of rape, unlawful coercion and three cases of sexual molestation.[2] The warrant was appealed to the Svea Court of Appeal which upheld it but lowered it to suspicion of rape (less serious crime), unlawful coercion and two cases of sexual molestation rather than three.
...On 6 December 2010, Scotland Yard notified Assange that a valid European arrest warrant had been received.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assange_v_Swedish_Prosecution_Authority
"The international police organization Interpol has issued a Red Notice for the arrest of WikiLeaks’ founder Julian Assange, in connection with a sex crime investigation in Sweden."
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/11/assange-interpol/

Now, my fair-minded friend. Does ANY of the above disturb you or give you cause for concern?

[quote]You make it sound like there isn't any outpouring of 1's on any movie. It's jsut that the rating that goes through all of IMDb's filters to prevent voting fraud is a deservedly bad one.

A tekkie bragging about his superior skillz? I'm sure I've never seen that before, but you can spare me in this case. The issue is not necessarily whether IMDb's filters work properly; for all I know, the weighted vote averages MAY reflect the votes of separate individuals. But, as I've already written, for some movies, including movies that haven't even been released, it's not unheard of for fangirls & fanboys, friends of the filmmakers or actors to vote on the film. In this case, it's obvious that Assange's own fanboys, fangirls and perhaps even his associates had a strong hand in dragging down the aggregate score. So, in point of fact, I never did "make it sound as if there isn't any outpouring of 1's on any movie." I've simply pointed out that it's done to affect the aggregate score rather than to reflect the actual assessment of the film's quality by the person who has seen it.

reply

> In other words, you can't name any egregious errors.

I'm not your monkey, and I don't want to do work that's already done.
If you really need an additional error that wasn't mentionted in the annotated transcript: the way the unredacted cables were leaked is entirely different than what Gibney say, but I already wrote about that.

> uncritically parroting

Yet again, everyone that doesn't share you opinion is an idiot.


> Itself a misnomer since it was not based on the final script

It was released after Gibney dared them. Where are the huge differences?


> "Informers deserve to die"

First the story was that he said it at a certain dinner, and various people from the Guardian said that he said that,making it sound like they were there, when they were jsut quoting someone else saying that. After a journalist who was there released a signed witness statement that this was a lie, the story was suddenly changed, with one person saying that he said it at some unspecified time, no proof of that, of course.

> In a rare admission in the film ["True Stories: WikiLeaks"]

You mean the movie produced by his enemies? he doesn't say anything about the first part, btw, and noone was harmed, of course. There isn't even a name out there of one of those informants. And like I said, those reports are widely read, there shouldn't be anyone's name in there that would be harmed by publication.


> wikileaks giving cables to a dictator: There IS evidence

I guess that's why they invited him to host a Q&A on a documentary by Belarusian dissidents... Can I see the evidence? Oh, you only've got hearsay from people who hate Assange? Nothing was ever substantiated? Noone ever harmed by those mysterious cables? Strange...


> That evidence comes from none other than ex-WikiLeaks employee James Ball.

An employee so beloved that an internal report was made that stated that he would sell out WikiLeaks, which he did.


> they have lost no time smearing Ball

Ask some former WikiLeaks members how they like Ball...
They made an NDA just for him (because noone trusted him after a while), and he used this (after being warned of the consequences!) to get some publicity while screwing over Bradley Manning - the prosecution used this against Manning in the trial. What a great guy. But at least he proved to everybody that he was lying by putting it out.


> Contextless stuff, bla blub

Still got a terrible rating, still a box office flop, even though a lot of peopel won't see the errors and twisting of facts in this movie.

http://www.imdb.com/user/ur5447903/ratings

reply

> In other words, you can't name any egregious errors.

I'm not your monkey, and I don't want to do work that's already done.
If you really need an additional error that wasn't mentionted in the annotated transcript

No, I don't need an additional error. I need "egregious errors." If you're not my monkey, then the least you can do is attempt to make your case. That's why you're here, isn't it? I'm not the only one on this board who has come away unimpressed from a reading of Assange's gloss.
Yet again, everyone that doesn't share you opinion is an idiot

Which only begs the question: just what IS my opinion on the subject of "principled leaking"?

Do you even know? (Yes, I know you'll probably respond that you couldn't care less, but it happens to be highly relevant.)

As far as the "Informers need to die" comment ascribed to Assange by some journalists at The Guardian, let's scope back a bit from the He-said-She-said aspect of that since it's unresolvable here, and look instead at a couple of things that are NOT in dispute.

1. Assange has said that hackers should be anarchists, not hawks.

2. Assange's hacker name, invoking noble untruthfulness, though partly ironic, alluded to his sense of mission as a noble hero battling villains. (Both 1&2 hint at the possibility of what Ball calls "noble cause corruption")

3. Assange shows himself to be fairly blase about the lives of those who collaborate with the US government in some way - not conflicted, but blase. (See below)

4. Assange misrepresents the facts: when asked why so many [of his left-leaning associates!] have faulted the inadequacy of his so-called (loftily named) "harm minimization process", he blames the Pentagon. Read for yourself:

The question of harm minimization: You came in for a lot of criticism of that, that you were in your initial conversations not concerned.

That's absolutely false, and this is a typical rhetorical trick --

Why does this keep coming up? Why are there people out there that are saying that you didn't care if informants were killed?

It's absolutely false. And I'll explain to you why it keeps coming up. First of all, this is the bog-standard tactic of the Pentagon. Whenever they are or expect to be criticized for slaying innocent civilians, thousands -- in the case of the Afghan war diaries -- [of] people killed documented in this conflict, over 20,000 in our material. Whenever they come under that criticism, they use the bog-standard rhetorical trick which is to turn the precise criticism that you expect back on your opponent.

So the criticism that they were expecting is they were involved in the situation that has led to the deaths -- that documents deaths of over 20,000 people. So what do they say? They say we might have blood on our hands when their own records document that broader military conflict killing 20,000 people.

Now, if we go to the detail about names, it is right to name names. It is absolutely right to name names. It is not necessarily right to name every name. We're dealing with a situation where we have in Kabul radio stations, who are meant to be independent, who are funded by USAID [U.S. Agency for International Development], taking PSYOPS programming content, psychological operations programming content, to be played on their radio stations as news, but it is actually propaganda. Now, the names of those people involved, do the Afghan people have a right to understand which one of their media channels are propaganda and which one is the true independent? Of course they do.


So here we have Assange dismissing questions about his judgment as DoD agitprop when he knows full well that much of comes from his own Wikileaks people and investigative journalists he's collaborated with. He also makes it sound self-evident that anyone who collaborates with the US government is fair game. (How is the above so different from Nick Davies' recollection: 'If an Afghan civilian helps coalition forces, he deserves to die.' He went on to say that they have the status of a collaborator or an informant.")

In the above-quoted transcript, I don't hear the murmurs of someone who ever wrestles with his conscience or agonizes over gray areas, do you?

DO YOU???

Assange was never trained as an investigative journalist. Although he sometimes likes to ally himself with that cause ("We, as all good investigative journalists do, name names") he doesn't talk like an investigative journalist because he doesn't THINK like one.

And he sure as hell doesn't act like one.

Bill Keller, New York Times:

[Assange] was angry that we declined to link our online coverage of the [Afghan] war logs to his website, .. we feared – rightly- that its trove would contain the names of low-level informants and make them Taliban targets. “Where’s the respect?” he demanded. “Where’s the respect?”


Assange comes across to a lot of people who know him and who've worked with him as someone who can get more exercised over respect for him than respect for the lives of others.

Why is that? And how do YOU know that no one was harmed. Does the Taliban send you email updates? How about dictators?
I guess that's why they invited him to host a Q&A on a documentary by Belarusian dissidents... Can I see the evidence? Oh, you only've got hearsay from people who hate Assange? Nothing was ever substantiated? Noone ever harmed by those mysterious cables? Strange.

Careful or someone will mistake you for Clint Eastwood talking to an empty chair. It's usually considered appropriate to wait for an answer rather than to supply yourself.

Here's some evidence. Not the sources. Do you see any right-wing rags among them?

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/20129410312450511.htm l

http://gawker.com/5889863/uk-mag-links-julian-assange-and-wikileaks-to -brutal-european-dictator

http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2011/02/wikileaks-belarus-and-israel- shamir/

The latter link to index on censorship includes a set of questions posed to WikiLeaks that were met with a terse non-reply from "a representative":

‘We have no further reports on this “rumour/issue”.
Another Wikileaks representative told Index “obviously it is not approved" [Whatever that means]

Sounds like a friggin' representative from Monsanto, doesn't it? So much for transparency, dude. Must make you feel real good being an apologist for Assange.

Here are the questions that Assange & co refused to answer:

We would be grateful if you could look into the following, and the following questions:

a) What is the official status of Israel Shamir at Wikileaks?

b) Is it true that Mr Shamir has released additional cables from the US embassy in Minsk (i.e. other than the five already on the website) to the Belarus authorities? If so, do you know which cables?

c) How many cables from the US embassy in Minsk are in Wikileaks’ possession in total?

We are especially concerned that cables which outline funding relationships between foreign bodies and the Belarusian government may be used to prosecute opposition activists for “commercial crimes”; therefore could you answer the following 2 questions:

d) Other than the five cables already released on the website, can these be provided to Index on Censorship and or other groups? If so, which cables and when will they be available and to whom?

e) Have any of the cables relating to Belarus been redacted by WikiLeaks?

Index on Censorship, as you know, has been broadly supportive of Wikileaks on the question of free expression and freedom of information. Our overall mission is to promote free expression and safeguard the rights of those seeking to exercise their free expression. The actions of the Belarus government, by any standards violate those freedoms.

We look forward to hearing from you as a matter of urgency.






reply

Assange-defenders, as you prefer to name them, are not biased at all. They are mainly annoyed by your stupidity and ignorance. They want the truth to be known. You, o.t.o.h. seem to rather believe in miracles and lies. Your funeral, not mine (or ours, if you will).

Oh wait, you also think Edward Snowden is a traitor, right? Grow a clue and get a life already, you do not belong in a world where all humans breathe the same air you do.

Use your ears and try and learn a thing or two about life and the universe you are part of;
http://www.2600.com/offthehook/mp3files/broadband/off_the_hook__20130612-128.mp3
http://twit.tv/show/security-now/408

reply

If anything, the other guy was too polite. I wouldn't call them Assange-defenders, but Assange-apologists. All they want to know is whose "side" you're on, whether you see certain people as wearing white hats or black hats, instead of discussing difficult matters on a case-by-case basis. Is it possible that Edward Snowden is neither a traitor nor an unsullied knight in shining white armor? Is it possible that it is also more beneficial to the public interest to discuss what he did, rather than how he should be labeled?

reply

As an objective viewer who admires the mission of wikileaks, it's a 7. And that's solely for content. The film is more important than it is a quality experience of storytelling. Assange defenders should certainly not be so defensive, it does do his mission and vision justice, but it also is objective about how that message has been derailed over the last few years, and part of that is his responsibility. There's nothing wrong with that, nothing damning. If anything he comes off as a complex human. I'm very familiar with disinformation, and I did not find Gibney's film to be a product of that. The film's flaws lay in creative choices about how Gibeny chose to tell the story, what he focused on and did not focus on, not in its portraits of two very human men (Assange and Bradley Manning.) I left the film with a great admiration for both men and the sacrifices they've made for a shared belief in a better world, regardless of their perceived personal flaws. I suspect others will as well.

reply

[deleted]

I beg to differ.

Information is power.

Power can affect judgment and decisionmaking. (Famously, "power corrupts")

Whatever one decides to do, people's lives will be affected. In rare instances their lives may be at stake.






reply

> Information is power.

No, power is power.

http://imdb.com/user/ur2019270/ratings

reply

If it is true that, in the past, Assange has used his control of information as a bargaining chip, then it's safe to assume that he considers information to be an instrument of power as well.

reply

> it's safe to assume that he considers information to be an instrument of power as well.

I completely agree. Information is an instrument of power. But it's not power. There's an important distinction between the two.

http://imdb.com/user/ur2019270/ratings

reply

It's a figure of speech, pizdindim. Perhaps you've heard the expression, "Time is Money?" Or "Knowledge is Power? -- used in written communication at least twice by no less a wordsmith and thinker than Thomas Jefferson.

reply

You mean, like using weasel words to make a point? It wasn't Thomas Jefferson who started that trend, was it?

http://imdb.com/user/ur2019270/ratings

reply

Blame Francis Bacon for using it in one of his works as far back as 1597 (ipsa scientia potestas est, or "knowledge itself is power") and Hobbes for the more aphoristic "knowledge is power" (scientia potentia est.)

reply

[deleted]

finally a sound statement, thank you.

reply

As an objective viewer < There's no such thing as an objective viewer.

http://www.imdb.com/user/ur5447903/ratings

reply

Totally agree. Great summary.

reply

No kidding the "review" on the front page is nothing more than a politically motivated rant. This is just nonsense.

reply

Guess what, most votes on movies are 1s or 10s, and IMDb has algorithms that count regular voters (like me) higher than people with few votes. This movie is full of errors, you don't even need to see the annotated transcript to see that. If you don't, maybe you don't know the facts that well. Gibney has repeatedly and transparently lied about this film, have a look at his Twitter stream.

Here are the Top 1000 voters' votes (3.5):
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1824254/ratings-top_1000

What's even worse is that Gibney wrote this whole fictitious story (Rise and Fall of a Hero) to make people believe that he's such a great filmmaker, when the true story is great in its own right.

Review by Cryptome, another leak site often critical of WikiLeaks/Assange:
http://cryptome.org/2013/06/we-steal-secrets-review.htm

"This is a juxtaposition of two films, one excellent and truthful, one vulgar and dissimulative."

"The first film shows Assange and colleagues doing what they became world famous for: publishing material released by supremely courageous Bradley Manning. This is compelling, impressive and informative -- photos and film we had not seen before -- despite annoying padding with trite graphics and edgy music."

"The second film is excreable, inexcusable smearing of WikiLeaks, Assange and Manning. Something appears to have deranged Gibney (aided by aggrieved former Assange beneficiaries), probably the religious torment of producing a commercial film with its obligatory moralism in favor of established authority's shaping of public acceptance of those in power (at worst, they were threatened and bribed by the natsec machine)."

reply

[deleted]

Firstly, Assange is not the second coming -- not even in his own circles. His 'hacker' background is by no means unique, and was almost a common experience amongst 'geeks' who grew up during the late 80's and early 90's. Being investigated for, or even charged with, hacking / phreaking / fraud offences was as common amongst his peers as trailer trash being arrested for shoplifting, or simple assault. (Heck, if you were trailer trash with a modem you might have been charged with all of them!)

The information required to exploit various devices, systems and networks was freely available, if you knew where to look (or what number to dial), and the mechanics of doing so were often trivial. Let's just get that out of the way, and accept that for the purposes of this review, Assange was, prior to Wikileaks, nothing extraordinary.

However, having the hutzpah to publish classified information when 'everyone knows' what would happen to you for doing so is really what differentiated Assange from the rest of the crowd -- no one can or should dispute that. It's surprising he hasn't already had an 'accident', and he should be applauded for his evident vigilance in keeping himself alive. But, there are other documentaries that do that. What this particular documentary seemingly wants to explore is not whether what Assange did was exceptional (we already agree that it was), but whether how he elected to bring his 'secrets' to the world was done in the most appropriate, compassionate way.

'We Steak Secrets' recognises that, to some, this is important -- even if many of Assange's supporters think that it isn't.

Bradley Manning is a tragic individual. Those who find themselves questioning their gender identity (often before pursuing gender reassignment) do not typically make the best choices. (This is why to proceed on such a path one usually needs to see a psychiatrist.) It is an incredibly confusing, frightening and yet euphoric time and I don't generally advise people in such circumstances to make any decisions that could change their lives in any real degree while they mull over their future, since they're not likely to be their best choices in retrospect.

Being transgendered may not itself be a 'mental illness', but the anxiety, depression and mania associated with coming to terms with being so certainly is, and one can't be considered of 'sound mind' in such a state -- this is an important point to make, and one the documentary attempts to impart through Manning's IRC chats with the sad little man who would eventually turn him in.

Obviously, deciding to copy a large amount of classified data and deliver it to Wikileaks would qualify as a 'poor decision', especially when you're in the US military, and have practically zero likelihood of defending your actions to your superiors. This is what the documentary suggests, and to do so is not slander -- it merely tries to explain to the layperson why such a bright young man would choose to martyr himself in such a dramatic way when very few others (if anyone) would ever consider embarking on such an ambitious but dangerous course of action.

The documentary assumes that a completely rational individual in a similar scenario would never jeopardise his personal security in such a rash fashion irrespective of a perceived collective humanitarian benefit -- which is not an unfair assumption to make -- and asks what made Manning different; what could lead him to behave so contrary to that norm.

In doing so, 'We Steal Secrets' makes a decent hypothesis.

Moving on from Manning to Assange, the documentary then raises the question, "If Assange was aware of Manning's personal difficulties, was he irresponsible in choosing to receive the classified information, and go ahead with publishing it, knowing what would result?" This is an ethical conundrum that is open for debate, but open for debate it most certainly is -- regardless of whether Assange's supporters like it or not.

Although Assange evidently concluded that releasing the information was of greater value to humanity than preserving the remainder of Bradley Manning's productive life, others may not have felt similar. But go ahead Assange did, at full steam.

He made his choice, fair enough -- but could Assange have redacted details that weren't all that important to the context of the information, such as the names of informants? Could he have released statistics, or related overall 'stories' told by the data, rather than the data itself, to mitigate some of the consequence to Manning? Would Manning's looming punishment have been reduced had the information been handled differently?

We can only speculate -- but we are entitled to, make no mistake.

It's not 'unfair' for the documentary to ask these questions, either. It's also not 'unfair' to continue on and examine Assange's exploitation of his subsequent 'rock-star' status -- after all, it speaks to his motivations, and casts a shadow on his supposed altruism. However, although to me the documentary tells the unfortunate tale of a fame-seeker who took advantage of someone in the grip of reconciling a very difficult truth in order to further his own agenda, others could interpret it differently.

I'm not sure how, but I'm sure they could. Can you?

reply

Well said, mag6581

What this particular documentary seemingly wants to explore is not whether what Assange did was exceptional (we already agree that it was), but whether how he elected to bring his 'secrets' to the world was done in the most appropriate, compassionate way.


Certainly and, more broadly, it's a magnificent study of the (unironic and ironic) misuse of power, a textured exploration of ambiguities and ethical conundrums. No wonder it's a thorn in the sides of those who refuse to view politics except in terms of clashing virtues and easy judgments.

Gibney exploits our natural interest in people and predilection for gossip to do something far more serious - to get us, the audience, involved in ethical decisionmaking.

I can't think of a worthier goal for a filmmaker. Can you?

reply

mag6581, why are you placing the blame for Manning's fate solely on Assange's shoulders and neglecting to mention Adrian Lamo?

reply

lol calling people out for voting "1" and then vote "10" yourself

reply

LOL @ your kneejerk response. I voted the movie a 10 AFTER I saw it, not before and my "10" vote corresponds fairly closely to the critical reception the film has received, whereas a "1" vote is the sort of thing one gives to a Uwe Boll movie.

When I first posted my OP, the movie had been shown in two relatively small venues, Sundance and SIFF. It has since played at the Sydney Film Festival.

There's no way half of those (rather sophisticated) attendees voted this well-crafted documentary a "1".

No friggin way - and you know it.

And, if you needed any more proof of the soundness of "my" suspicions (anyone with half a brain in his or her head would concur) just look at what is happening to the rating. It has shot up to 5.2 in a matter of days.

reply

shot up to 5.2 < Still really crappy. It has also bombed at the box office, if that interests you. You're giving this turd the best rating there is, which is just ridiculous, even if you agree with everyone of Gibney's points.

The top 1000 voters give this a 4.2, btw: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1824254/ratings-top_1000

well-crafted documentary < maybe well-crafted to fit Gibney's agenda, but I would disagree even with that (James Ball with a goddamn SnorriCam? LOL.).


http://www.imdb.com/user/ur5447903/ratings

reply

LOL, virtually no one besides Assangists are staying away on the ostensible grounds that it's a "bad film." If that's your argument, it won't wash. Leaving the RT-listed critics and their average rating of 8/10 to one side, there is the matter of RT audiences, who rate this a 7.6/10. An initial 3.9 from IMDb users vs. a 7.6 from RT audiences on a movie few had seen before 5/24 attests to politically-motivated voting by intemperate Assangists. For this reason, I'm fairly certain this film's aggregate rating at IMDb will continue to climb into the 6's and, after the DVD's release, into the 7's.

At its widest release, WSS has played in just 25 theaters, typical for non-sensationalistic intelligent fare such as this. And after just 3 weeks, it's earned $158,000. Not much, right? But by way of comparison, Gibney's Oscar-nominated Taxi to the Dark Side played in 20 theaters and earned just $274,000 after 20 weeks. Gibney doesn't make movies to get rich, but he enjoys an exalted reputation in the eyes of his fellow documentarians and enthusiastic docheads. This film's critical success is further proof of that.

So what's Gibney's agenda? You saw the movie, right? You tell me.


reply

Gibney promised a wide release. Taxi to the Dark Side had a different schedule, many TV showings. WSS had twice the budget. But who gives a crap about box office anway? RT are generally unreliable (in any direction), have a look at current movies, often 40% difference between critics and audiences. With IMDb ratings, you know where you stand: comic book movies and Turkish movies will be rated highly, for example, but at least they're consistent with their "bias". Also, the movie had a crapyp rating before 2013-05-24. And no, it won't go up to the 7's.

So what's Gibney's agenda?

To tell the story he planned from the beginning: rise and fall of Assange, first hero, then hypocrite. The majority of the time is spent on interviewing the people who don't like him.

The *beep* story about Assange wanting $1M is still everywhere, besides not being true.

Gibney is really lazy here, like a lot of documentarians sacrifice accuracy for a better story. The sad irony here is that the true story would have been good enough. Also, he doesn't dig deep enough, if you followed the various stories, you'll notice immediately. There are a few good parts here and there, but they're surrounded by crap (Cryptome review says something similar, btw). The whole thing is only scratching the surface, mostly showing us stuff we've seen in countless other reports on WL/JA. It's 2013, not 2010!

Do these untouchable critics know all the facts? Even the things I was personally involved with are misrepresented, to get that right it would be enough to do basic research.

Btw, should I call you Gibneyist? Part of the Gibney cult?

http://www.imdb.com/user/ur5447903/ratings

reply

But who gives a crap about box office anway?

I do. This film has been a huge hit on TorrentFreak and I think that does the public a disservice. Good investigative documentarians deserve the financial reward that allows them to make more films in the public interest.
Btw, should I call you Gibneyist? Part of the Gibney cult?

Excellent question. I'm so glad you asked.

The answer is no, because I don't worship the man or believe he can do no wrong. Although my interests typically center on messages rather than messengers, I'm always open to information that casts the messengers I admire in an unfavorable light. Gibney included.

I have come to admire his films for his nuanced take on the issues and his foregrounding of critical thought. He doesn't put himself out there as a "rock star" nor is he regarded as such by his "fans". But if he committed egregious breaches of professionalism, if he made comments that betrayed an "arrogance of power" mentality, I wouldn't hesitate to call him to account for it. And I'm never ever surprised, as some people are, to learn that the world's greatest heroes are also capable of the most monumental flaws.

With IMDb ratings, you know where you stand




Hilarious. IMDb ratings for movies with a small audience tell you very little. And as everyone with any knowledge of IMDb knows, the initial ratings even for the biggest blockbusters can be deformed by fanboys and fangirls who vote on movies sight unseen. This is frequently the case for films that have been opened to voting just prior to release.

Also, the movie had a crapyp rating before 2013-05-24.

D'oh. In other words, it had a crappy rating before most of those voting had an opportunity to see the movie they were voting on. That's fraud.

And no, it won't go up to the 7's.

Will it climb into the 6's? And if it does, will you acknowledge that the 3.9 rating didn't reflect general opinion but rather the views of "pro-Assange" zealots?

The *beep* story about Assange wanting $1M is still everywhere, besides not being true

How can you be so sure?
The majority of the time is spent on interviewing the people who don't like him.

Oh, you can do better than that. Apart from the fact that a great deal of the movie is spent exploring the psychology of Bradley Manning, we have the little matter of WHO Gibney chose to interview about Assange.

Was it rightwingers (who don't know Assange personally and who oppose internet freedom) who provided the telling details about Assange's troubling shortcomings? Of course not.

It was progressives (journalists and Assange associates) who believe in the value of internet freedom and who acknowledge the good Assange has done.

To tell the story he planned from the beginning: rise and fall of Assange, first hero, then hypocrite. The majority of the time is spent on interviewing the people who don't like him


Except that the movie doesn't do that. There's no "first hero, then hypocrite" schema at work. Were you not paying attention to the significance attributed to Mendax?

As I've said, this film is a nuanced film for nuanced thinkers.

Also, he doesn't dig deep enough

He left about an hour on the cutting room floor, but tell me, what do you think he should have included?
Even the things I was personally involved with are misrepresented,


Such as?

(Incidentally, all documentary filmmakers and all investigative journalists, no matter how exemplary, are open to this charge. Often it centers on the complaint that the author/filmmaker wants to tell a different story from the one the complainer wants to see. Truth is, virtually any topic is amenable to many kinds of storytelling, many kinds of truth.)










reply

> > The *beep* story about Assange wanting $1M is still everywhere, besides not being true

> How can you be so sure?

I instantly recognized where Gibney came from with this false statement. Assange once said that such an interview with him (like in the movie) had a market value of about ~$1M. Gibney then decided, like with other things, to willfully misinterpret that.


> That's fraud.

> "pro-Assange" zealots

Yes because the only way this documentary could get a bad ratings is a conspiracy by pro-Assange zealots. LOL. Again: the people who saw this first are the people who were interested and know more than the general public, or reviewers who had to review that becasue that's their job, not because it interested them or because they know the details. They review the "movie", not the facts, thinking the facts are true. A bit liek taking a mockumentary seriously.


> psychology of Bradley Manning

Oh yeah, the troubled almost-transgender, homosexual guy with difficult relationships who couldn't make it in the military, yadda yadda.


> what do you think he should have included?

Cut the stuff that we've seen hundreds of times, or concentrate on specific things.


> Such as?

The release of the unredacted Cablegate files. Yeah, it's only a short note, but he doesn't just get it wrong, he just invents an incident. It's one thing to be sloppy and get your information from incorrect articles (he's done that plenty of times), but it's another to just invent something.


> Incidentally, all documentary filmmakers and all investigative journalists, no matter how exemplary, are open to this charge.

Yeah, everybody's got their viewpoints, but at least get the facts straight. And show us something new, because this documentary could've been released 2 years ago. And don't shove your predetermined story down our throats.


> general opinion but rather the views of "pro-Assange" zealots?

The problem here is that the general public and most film reviewers haven't got a clue about WikiLeaks/Assange/Manning/...
And no, the people who don't like this aren't zealots (maybe a few, but every movie's got them).


> Good investigative documentarians deserve the financial reward that allows them to make more films in the public interest.

Good thing he isn't making much money. Apropos "Good investigative documentarians" and movie ratings - have a look at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2532528/ratings. Coincidentally the same rating as this one.

http://www.imdb.com/user/ur5447903/ratings

reply

I instantly recognized where Gibney came from with this false statement. Assange once said that such an interview with him (like in the movie) had a market value of about ~$1M. Gibney then decided, like with other things, to willfully misinterpret that.


Um, no, pal. Just no. You instantly fabricated an explanation that suits you. You're in no position to know what went on privately between two men. But I've never heard strange things coming out of Gibney's mouth, whereas I've heard plenty from Assange, including: "One of the most extraordinary things about British journalism is that it is the most credit-stealing, credit-whoring, backstabbing industry ever encountered. And Nick Davies is part of that industry."

And Assange DOES have a motive. Money - big money - has been uppermost in his mind ever since his troubles in Sweden.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/oct/08/julian-assange-supporters- ordered-forfeit-bail

Now take a look at the "annotated transcript." Do you see Assange actually DENYING that he sought $1 million in exchange for appearing in Gibney's film?

Even worse perhaps, do you see, anywhere in that rebuttal, a refutation of this damning allegation by Gibney?"

He railed against his enemies and I knew that he had tried to get all his followers to sign a non-disclosure agreement. The penalty for leaking: $19 million.

reply

Itt doesn't get any clearer than http://wikileaks.org/IMG/html/gibney-transcript.html#3959. Also, the burden of proof is on you.

> Do you see Assange actually DENYING that he sought $1 million in exchange for appearing in Gibney's film?

Why would he deny that, when Gibney wasn't even saying that in the movie? Gibney's playing wordgames here, and not for the first time.

> Even worse perhaps, do you see, anywhere in that rebuttal, a refutation of this damning allegation by Gibney?"

Yes, maybe try reading the thing next time?

http://www.imdb.com/user/ur5447903/ratings

reply

Oh, it yes it does get clearer than that.

> Do you see Assange actually DENYING that he sought $1 million in exchange for appearing in Gibney's film?

Why would he deny that, when Gibney wasn't even saying that in the movie


Yes he did.

I was finally summoned to the Norfolk mansion for a 6-hour negotiation. But Julian wanted money. He said the market rate for an interview with him was $1 million. When I declined, he offered an alternative: perhaps I would spy in my other interviews and report back to him, but I couldn't do that either.

During his time under house arrest he'd become more secretive and paranoid. He railed against his enemies and I knew that he had tried to get all his followers to sign a non-disclosure agreement. The penalty for leaking: $19 million.


Assange's response?
Julian Assange did not say the market rate for an interview with him was $1 million dollars and Alex Gibney did not decline

Notice the words "market rate" and "Gibney did not decline"? That's semantics, not a clear-cut refutation of the allegation that Assange wouldn't agree to appear on camera unless Gibney paid him $1 million.

Sound familiar?

IV. One Million Dollars

According to Mr. Domscheit-Berg, Mr. Assange initially tried to sell journalists the "Collateral Murder" footage, which showed a U.S. helicopter gunship gunning down innocent civilians in Iraq. This surprised Mr. Domscheit-Berg as he had been told that the goal of Wikileaks was always "just publish".

But Mr. Assange didn't want to publish the information -- not until he received a small ransom. He demanded a payment of $1M USD for exclusive access to the information.

In the end, nobody bit. So Mr. Assange was forced to simply post the teaser to YouTube, eventually posting a longer, less edited clip to his website. In an interview Mr. Assange sounded remorseful about "missed opportunities" financially in the site's early history -- likely alluding to his failure to draw the $1M USD.


http://www.dailytech.com/Wikileaks+Assange+on+US+Informants+in+Afghani stan+They+Deserve+to+Die/article21724.htm

Your defense of Assange is looking seedier and seedier by the minute, darkshyne.

A few questions. Feel free to ask me some in return.

1. Concerning "principled leaking" - where do you draw the line?

2. What most troubles you about it?

3. Is there any chance that Assange is not trustworthy and is trustworthiness an integral part of the Leak site manager's job description?


reply


The voting and the blatantly political 1 star "reviews" on the front page kind of make the point. Wikileaks and those defending him have become the monsters they complain about.

reply

Which is exactly the theme of this movie. Thanks, 1-star voters!

reply

[deleted]

Wow, the Assange cult goes mental when their cowardly god is criticized.

The IMDB score is now 6.5, well below metacritic's 7.6. There are still 15% 1 votes from Assange worshippers, so the score should be above 7.

Three More Years! Carbon Taxes! Snowden Indicted!

reply

The documentary is better than the fiction movie The Fifth Estate, but it's not perfect. However it's well made and moving. I'm not surprised the rating is better.

reply

Not perfect, but then no product is. But what I find more interesting (and flat out hilarious) is how WikiLeaks felt they had to produce an annotated transcript, as if we cannot tell facts from errors and lies. It's only a documentary. Speaks volumes of present day WikiLeaks and the people behind.

--
A picture with a smile - and perhaps, a tear.

reply