MovieChat Forums > Dreams of a Life (2012) Discussion > interesting subject but it lacked someth...

interesting subject but it lacked something


i loved the subject / case , it instantly caught my attention but i dont know why i still cant digest there was no one who inquired about her and her death was unknown for three years . i was waiting to get the answer but i dint . i really dont know why her story dint made me sad , migh be because people around me have recovered from much disasterous situations . how come she was forgotten , i simply cant digest it . those people in the documentary looked good people to me and what about her three sisters which was mentioned in start ?

'sorry for my poor english'

reply

There aren't answers to all the questions that the film raises because the central character was enigmatic and is no longer here to attempt to answer some of those questions.

We don't know what enquiries were made by her family in those 3 years as they wished to remain anonymous. The people who agreed to appear were all from her past and many of them made the point that she would often disappear from people's lives.

Why you didn't feel sad is just because you didn't feel sad. Not everyone will respond the same way to something and perhaps whatever experiences you or those around you have been through influences your feelings in respect to the film.

A man chases a woman until she catches him

reply


In the DVD extras it says that the family had attempted to find Joyce by contacting the Salvation Army and also by hiring a private detective but both were unsuccessful.

Joyce's story is incredibly sad but very real. I feel that perhaps she ended up crushed by life and that's why she isolated herself. There is poignancy is the several stories of the years before her death, where friends had spotted her in the street and called out her name and she chose to ignore them and walk by. I think she was ashamed at her reduced circumstances and that way that she hadn't fulfilled her earlier promise. She was approaching 40, childless, no stable relationship and a victim of domestic abuse, and having gone from well paid jobs in the city to being a cleaner. It must have been soul destroying for her. I can only hope that she was in the quiet process of transition and had she not died would have worked her life out and improved her situation.

Perhaps you felt it lacked more factual information? I found some of the film maker's post-it notes of Joyce's time line very interesting, like at one time she'd bought a house.

As a film it is very powerful and thought provoking.



In Kidman's case, it's nice to see her lately immovable forehead participating in her performance - Rabbit Hole review, Variety

reply

I agree with you about the emotional effects on Joyce as her life unravels and the shame she might have felt at her reduced circumstances. The friend I saw the film with has worked with victims of domestic abuse and opined that Joyce ignoring her old flatmate was evidence to my friend that Joyce had been in an abusive relationship. I think the film implied two relationships with persons unknown who were abusive.

Your hope for her is poignant. I have the crazy thought that Joyce died because she wanted to at a subconscious level.

Perhaps you felt it lacked more factual information? I found some of the film maker's post-it notes of Joyce's time line very interesting, like at one time she'd bought a house.
You posted this to me but presumably you're replying to the OP as I didn't feel the film lacked for factual info. Carol Morley did a fantastic job at unearthing people who helped gather a wealth of info on Joyce and yes the time line was an effective way of sharing some aspects of Joyce's life.
A man chases a woman until she catches him

reply

Poppy, I agree with you totally. Carol Morley did a tremendous job and without her interest and perserverence, Joyce's story would never have been told.

I couldn't help but freeze-frame the time line to study it better, to see if there was anything that I had missed on first viewing. I guess, what I meant by factual, is I would have appreciated more details as in names, locations, places that she'd worked in. Maybe I'm just too fascinated by her story.

I'm quite intrigued by your idea that she might of died because she wanted to at a subconscious level. Carol Morley stated in her interviews that she didn't want to 'close down' the story of Joyce by solving all the mysteries behind it. Do you think there was a lot of information that she held back in order to construct a better story?




In Kidman's case, it's nice to see her lately immovable forehead participating in her performance

reply

Hi again Mrs Mills. Didn't see your Q initially because I think you edited your post after I read it.

Do you think there was a lot of information that she held back in order to construct a better story?
I'm not sure but my hunch would be that she used most info. I think Morley might have held back some info at the family's request, perhaps, but even there I'm not sure. The most important details about Joyce, Morley can't provide, which would be the woman's personality herself. Remember the shock when a participant hears Joyce's speaking voice again? That must have been a jolt for Morley too.
A man chases a woman until she catches him

reply

I agree with you that it lacked something. To be precise my feeling is that it was a good story for an hour long TV documentary but not a feature-length movie. Seems like the director had to pad the movie out with two full length music videos (one of Joyce singing along to a song and one as she died) and too many clips of people saying perfunctory things that didn't add anything to our understanding of the story. I don't think the fact that she was in the presence of Nelson Mandela was as significant as the movie made it out to be. There was no sign that their interaction was any deeper than the typical "I'm a big fan of your work" celebrity encounter. I've met many famous people at book signings and other public events but if someone was doing a documentary of my life (which won't happen, of course) they would be really reaching to draw significance over the fact there was video footage of me in the presence of any of them. Celebrities and politicians meet a lot of people in their line of work.

reply

The remarkable thing about the Nelson Mandela concert was the second long footage that Carol Morley unearthed that showed actually showed Joyce alive. I guess it was the nearest thing to bringing her back from the dead or oblivion at least.

I understand totally what you are saying about much made of her celebrity interaction but that seems reflective of our times where everybody is celebrity obsessed. Having a chance dinner with Stevie Wonder didn't really change the course of her life, did it? I can only think that these were included to illustrate what might have been happy, exciting incidents in Joyce's life.

I think somewhere on the DVD, Morley states that she wanted to celebrate Joyce's life through music as Joyce wanted to be a singer. One of the clips that has the actress playing Joyce in a music studio singing part of a track ('Tell me') and it is very poignant as it is actually Joyce singing, which again gives the viewer a rare chance to hear her voice.

I also found some of the interviews not very in-depth. I wondered if all her relationships had been of an extremely shallow nature or whether people were reluctant to really open up about Joyce. From the 2 ex-boyfriends I would have really wanted to know how and why their relationship with Joyce had broken up. Was she seeing other men? Maybe at the time, she just didn't see any future with either of them? I think a lot of the superficial elements are played up while a lot of the important facts are played down and this adds to the haunting, mysterious quality of the film.

I think Carol Morley was a genius in constructing her film in a vague and ambiguous way in order to make the viewer think about it more. I think if she'd laid out a lot of the facts then it wouldn't have been so mysterious of Joyce dying alone the way she did. The more you think about it the more understandable it becomes.

I think the title of the film is incredibly profound and works on many levels - most of all that Joyce didn't fulfill her dreams and aspirations and that life dealt her a bad hand. I'm really saddened about this, especially since all the interviewees state that Joyce was such a nice, lovely person who just didn't deserve what happened to her.



In Kidman's case, it's nice to see her lately immovable forehead participating in her performance - Rabbit Hole Review, Variety.

reply

"I think Carol Morley was a genius in constructing her film in a vague and ambiguous way in order to make the viewer think about it more. I think if she'd laid out a lot of the facts then it wouldn't have been so mysterious of Joyce dying alone the way she did. The more you think about it the more understandable it becomes."

I think you're over thinking it. I like the subject matter of this film but I think they do a horrible job at giving you information. You don't know who they are talking to most of the time and why. For a good few minutes I thought they were interviewing people off the street. As time went on, they seemed to imply that most of those people that were interviewed knew Joyce at some point.

They never fleshed out how they knew Joyce in a coherent manner.

Also too much random rambling about crap that didn't even matter. In the beginning of the movie they talked to no end about the newspaper clipping about her and how there included no photo. I almost turned off the movie right there.

This movie is very lack luster and dreamy. It jumps from subject to subject at random and discusses tiny details to no end. It almost becomes frustrating at times.

reply

I think the documentary would have worked MUCH better as an audio piece using sound clips of Joyce and her acquaintances to tell the story. Instead the director had to struggle to come up with visual material to fill 90 minutes. So important details are scribbled together on a piece of paper which scrolls too quickly across the screen to be read, there are awkward juxtapositions of different reenactments, and there are lulls like the weird lip-synching scene that went on forever.

I get that the director wanted to avoid narrating the film, but narration REALLY would have helped pull this jumble of footage together. Like who are all these people being interviewed? After a while I identified two boyfriends and a few roommates and co-workers, but I had no idea who anyone else was. (Like the woman in the low-cut blouse, the one skinny dude, or the woman with bangs?) It's impossible to make meaning of an interview if you don't know who is speaking.

Also, it's one thing to leave certain mysteries open-ended (like how Joyce died -- no one really knows), but if you actually HAVE information, it seems dishonest to withhold it. Like I learned from reading the IMDB boards that Joyce's family was looking for her... but this isn't even mentioned in the film, so they come across as horribly uncaring.

If the director wanted to make a fictionalized version of Joyce's story to prove a point about social isolation in the modern world, she certainly had most of the actors and sets needed to do so. But to make a documentary about an actual person, and then to radically distort the picture and mislead the audience by leaving out huge chunks of information just seems a bit wrong.

reply

I know this is an old post, but I agree with you 100%

There was a sort of disconnect with what was happening on screen and the oddly placed re-enactments and quick pans over the hand scribbled timeline. I kept trying to place the people they interviewed in her timeline but at times I wasn't sure if they were school friends from her younger years or colleagues from her 20s. I agree that some narration would have done her story more justice and helped the audience understand her better.

Also as an aside, I would have loved it if they talked to the bank manager whose name she put on the hospital form (or maybe they did and I just didn't know which one it was)

reply

but if someone was doing a documentary of my life (which won't happen, of course)
You don't know this as a fact. I'm sure Joyce could never have imagined all of this.



---
Have a heart. Please spay and neuter your pets.

reply

Very good point, whistal! Ironically, after I wrote that statement, a comedian I know got his first (autobiographical) movie made and he was talking for awhile about making his next (low budget) movie about my life. That isn't going to happen, but it was a funny coincidence.

reply



Just make sure you don't die in an interesting way!

---
Have a heart. Please spay and neuter your pets.

reply




I agree with yojimboy in that a lot of padding had been employed. Whilst it was relevant to hear Joyce's voice, I don't think we needed to see the actress miming to it for three minutes plus - the song playing over some visual information would have worked better for me. Other scenes were extended unnecessarily, and some of the re-enactments didn't seem to have any context or explanation (just "Joyce" wandering around various locations). I understand these shots probably speak to her disconnected, wandering lifestyle, I just felt they could have been trimmed a little.

The most frustrating thing for me was no onscreen information as to who these talking heads were. We picked it up as we went along, but I still don't know who the attractive mixed race woman (who screwed her face up when she described Joyce being compared to Sade) was, nor the equally attractive brown-haired white woman (quite mature) - an MP was listed in the credits, so it MAY have been her. There was also a tanned or heavily made up young woman with short hair whom I know nothing about. Again, I realise (as out friend above says) that this may be an artistic construct to force us to think, but I think it's arrogant (a) to force us into a guessing game and (b) not to trust that we're going to think about it in the first place. I don't think any of us who put this movie on are expecting Transformers!





No Guru, No Method, No Teacher.

reply

Its a boring documentary. I'm not saying that they should sensationalize the documentary but the participants, even the actors are not engaging enough.

reply

I agree ^. They never stated a cause of death, and furthermore, never explained how the malodor of a rotting corpse went unnoticed, for not only weeks, nor months... but 3 years?? Joyce lived in an apartment building right, so why did no other tenants ever complain about the stench? How come her landlord never sought the unpaid rent? How come the electric company never turned off her power after 3 years of bill debt?? Should I move to London since obviously the rent and electricity are free there?? I wonder if healthcare and university tuition is free too...

I know this may all sound insensitive, but I've seen cases like Joyce's all the time in America... including my own (except for the 3 yr-old rotted corpse part). It is a sad story, but the technicalities in this case also needed to be addressed, but unfortunately never were.


Just sayin'...

reply

They never stated a cause of death

Morley showed the results of the inquest onscreen; the document cleared stated the cause of her death was unknown (I think the word used in the document was "unascertained"). Over time, Joyce's body gradually melted into the carpet, leaving no tissue to examine.

never explained how the malodor of a rotting corpse went unnoticed, for not only weeks, nor months... but 3 years??

This was explained visually by showing her apartment. There was no unit above her, no unit below her, and no unit on one side. Obviously, there was lots of free-flowing air around her apartment to carry the smell away; her location was high above the streets and the shopping center that served as the base of the housing units. What smell was left, residents attributed to the dumpsters located some distance below. In any case, she only had one window open, locked in fact in a slightly open position.

How come her landlord never sought the unpaid rent?

Again, documents shown in the film stated that the Metropolitan Housing Trust owned that flat. In other words, Joyce lived in public housing and some or all of her rent was paid for her by housing benefit, no doubt electronically. The local MP interviewed in the film made many inquiries into the questions of why neither the battered women's organization nor the housing trust checked up on Joyce in all that time; the MP never received a satisfactory answer, although reportedly those organizations have made changes in the way they follow up with clients.

How come the electric company never turned off her power after 3 years of bill debt??

Joyce had some savings and her bills were paid by direct debit. There were also hints in the film that those public housing units above the shopping center were sort of "written off" and close tabs were not kept on those expenses.

So Morley did address many of the technicalities of Joyce's case. There are many unanswered questions, however. I am haunted by some of them. For example, news accounts of the inquest indicate that some of the unopened mail piled in front of her door was dated as early as February 2003. Also, unused food and medicine in her apartment had expiration dates as early as February 2003.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4906992.stm

Considering this evidence, I have to wonder why the coroner settled on December 2003 as her probable death date, and not February 2003. Granted, the expiration dates of some food items found in her flat were as late as November 2003, but many food items have long shelf lives like that. She had undergone an operation for an ulcer in late 2002, and it makes more sense to think that Joyce may have succumbed to some kind of post-surgery complication earlier in 2003 rather than later.

She was found surrounded by a small pile of partially-wrapped Christmas presents, and maybe that was why the coroner guesstimated her death as occurring in December 2003. But what if her hospitalization in late 2002 kept her cut off from any part of Christmas 2002? She moved into the flat where she was found in February 2003. Maybe she was finishing the wrapping those gifts as a belated way to reach out and reconnect with some people after the shock of her medical trauma? So many questions. We'll never know because the police will not release any information about the contents of the gifts or their addressees, and the actual items were destroyed because of contamination from the decomposition process.

It seems she wasn't actually wrapping the gifts when she died, as implied in the film. She was actually clutching a shopping bag when she was found, and one witness at the inquest testified that she appeared as if she had just come in from shopping and sunk down onto the sofa. If she had been found before decomposition had advanced so far, the contents of the shopping bag would have given her date of death, as a paper receipt would have been included with her purchases.

reply

The cause of death is unknown..and will stay unknown her body was so decomposed they couldn't tell..they only knew it was her by dental records..but as far as the bills go..I really don't know..seems kinda weird to me. And for all the people who were talking about her in the movie..how did no one look into her disappearance.

reply

Yes you sometimes forget that having flesh on the body you can then have autopsys to find the cause of death. I think i kind of have been misled when thinking when they find skeletons 1000years old they can come up with reasons the individual died still, but is isnt always like for like i guess.

But i would have liked to have known why she was admitted to hospital, were there any dianosis?

reply

But i would have liked to have known why she was admitted to hospital, were there any diagnosis?


She was hospitalized for a peptic ulcer and had surgery in late 2002 to treat it. In addition to an ulcer, she also was known to have serious problems with asthma.

http://www.viewlondon.co.uk/cinemas/carol-morley-interview-feature-int erview-4329-1.html

reply

The bills probably were paid by direct debit/standing order, automatically, and probably her bank account had enough in it to last for the three years. She had some well-paying jobs and must have had some savings, and the automatic paymenst may have been drawn from those.

The apartment she lived in was social housing, some housing benefit would have been also automatically paid into her account and the rent paid out from there, or often housing benefit is in fact paid directly to the housing association of the social housing. When the rest made up from her own finances dried up, they came knocking.

About all the old friends and boyfriends seen in the movie -- I got the impression that all these friendships were not on a very deep level. I gather they were a couple of co-workers at the banking job she'd had, a few friends of boyfriends (all her friends only ever seemed to be people in a boyfriend's social circle, not actually her own), and ex boyfriends who seemed rather distant from their feelings for her -- except when that last fella broke down in tears.

But he was the only one who actually seemed moved. And even he, up until that point, seemed rather casual in his memories of her.

I think nobody really loved her, just enjoyed shallow and pleasant acquaintanceships with her.

Her family may have looked for her but they clearly didn't try very hard.

I think her life was filled with distant people who never really cared that much at all.



reply


It's not uncommon for some women when they get into a relationship to unconsciously discard their friends and turn their focus onto their lives with their partner. Furthermore, Joyce was in domestically abusive and violent relationship so it's probable that (a) her abuser would have isolated her (b) treated her so badly that she felt embarressed about her family & friends seeing her.

Fundamentally that is what is lacking in this documentary: The emphasis that Joyce was the victim of a domestically abusive relationship, serious enough to be rehoused in a secret location which is where she was when she met her untimely death. The documentary misleadingly poses questions of social alienation but never really confronts head on the cause in Joyce's case.



Nicole Kidman is heavier on eyeshadow than emotion - The Paperboy Review, Variety

reply

I doubt all those queries will ever be answered which is part of its raison d'etre: it raises more questions than it answers, due to Joyce's enigmatic existence.

George Lucas talking about: 'Hey, give it to me, I'll fix it. I'll make 20 more of them'

reply

I don't think it was anyone's sin that she went unfound for so long. I think it is kind of alluded to, that she never held contact with anyone, that when she moved or changed work, everyone from that place went off her radar. When she met a boyfriend, his friends became hers and when they broke up, she lost contact with everyone from that group. So she didn't really had any friends of her own. When there was any uncomfortable tension, she left with little explanation. So she kind of drifted into peoples lives and after a few weeks, months or years, she drifted back out. Maybe she would briefly drift back in, years later, and when she drifted back out, there were no questions. They had been through it before. She was off somewhere, out in the great big world, being Joyce. That she had fallen on hard times they knew, some of them, but she refused help and disappeared into the city, as she always did. And somehow she just fell between the cracks and never emerged.

reply

[deleted]