HUGE gaping hole in the plot....{{{ SPOILER }}} - Rudderless (2015) Discussion

[–] MisterMovieGuy 9 years ago

That "bomb" is dropped so late in the film that I had totally forgot about the funeral scene. You are totally right haha. Other than the media swarm, the worst reaction he seemed to get was the awkward nod and a forced smile from one of the other parents at the funeral.

It would have worked a lot better if they simply had him too emotionally distraught to even attend the funeral service. Oh well, good film regardless. I enjoyed the music.

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[–] doggie_rodriguez 9 years ago

Not everyone grieves the same way. Also, I don't recall anyone having a nice time at the funeral. I would hardly call this a "gaping" plot hole (I wouldn't even call it a regular sized plot hole).

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[–] DeepCinema 9 years ago

It's not a question of grieving styles. It's a matter of this situation being the hub of a crime scene.

And who wrote that anyone was "having a nice time at the funeral"?

What I said was that the atmosphere would have been much, much more heightened ~ people would have been horrified that their friend's son committed such a heinous act, asking one another WHY, if they'd noticed any fore-warning signs. Comparing notes on the victims. Avidly looking out the windows worried for the parents that they might be attacked by angry relatives/friends of those killed. Discussing the conditions of any injured and hospitalized. It would have been as peaceful as a minor battle zone.

Also the girlfriend was cordial and affirming of what a nice guy the son was to her, in stark contrast to her bitter, accusatory stance later.

I once attended the wake of a young girl in New Zealand/Aotearoa who had been killed by a hit & run driver. A tame situation compared with the school shooting depicted in this movie. Midway through the gathering, the drunken girlfriend of the guy who drove the vehicle came staggering up to the child's parents and informed them the name of the driver and that he had been inebriated at the time of the accident. While she was talking you could have heard the proverbial pin drop, and after that the whole arena was abuzz with avid whispers of exchange as to how best to handle matters. It wasn't a calm scene in the least.

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[–] doggie_rodriguez 9 years ago

What I said was that the atmosphere would have been much, much more heightened ~ people would have been horrified that their friend's son committed such a heinous act, asking one another WHY, if they'd noticed any fore-warning signs.

A funeral is not the place to ask "why". It's a place to mourn.

It's a matter of this situation being the hub of a crime scene.

The family home wasn't a crime scene. The kid lived in the dorms. The murders were committed at the school.

And who wrote that anyone was "having a nice time at the funeral"?

You said you didn't buy the funeral b/c (basically) people weren't acting in the "correct" way. I pointed out to you that people grieve in different ways.

Also the girlfriend was cordial and affirming of what a nice guy the son was to her, in stark contrast to her bitter, accusatory stance later.

It was 2 years later and she said she had to change her name and move b/c people were harassing her about it. She basically became a shut in. She even says in the film this was the first night she went out in a long time.

I'm not sure how you missed that.

I once attended the wake of a young girl in New Zealand/Aotearoa who had been killed by a hit & run driver.

Your funeral experiences are completely irrelevant to this film (and to me).

I'm not trying to be a d*ck here, but this is far from a "HUGE gaping plot hole". In fact, if they had acted the way you think they should, I would think it was unnatural and weird.

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[–] DeepCinema 9 years ago

I never said they weren't mourning properly ~ I said the calm demeanor was unbelievable given the enormity of the calamity they were enduring. There's grief and then there's shock compounded by anger, vengeance, dismay, panic. "Asking why" would be a natural under such circumstances, would be the first thing in everyone's mind. Crazy not to! As it stands, with this abrupt disclosure of the boy's dark side as killer, those in attendance could not even be sure who they were mourning ~ the fantasy they had of him vs the reality he became?

In fact ~ and this is essential to my assertion here: the people in attendance would be highly ambivalent about mourning at all ~ on the one hand sad to have lost the boy they thought they knew, and on the other hand horrified that he became a killer and glad the killer was gone from their midst.

If you think that the scene of the crime would have been limited to the boy's school, you're denying that the concern on the part of the police would have naturally expanded to include the family. Also, at this point, the cops would be curious to see the boy's friends, in case one or more revealed possible foreknowledge of, even possible complicity in, the heinous crime.

Yes, the girlfriend had endured harassment in the interim, but the contrast between her initial appreciation for the boy's sweetness toward her and the utter contempt and resentment she expressed later was jarring. You ALWAYS see video clips where neighbors and acquaintances aver that they never would have thought that so & so would ever erupt into homicidal violence. I'm sure the girl had many friends who felt the same and could have provided her some solace and buffer. It's not like she was an accomplice.

My funeral experiences are not in the LEAST irrelevant to MY experience of this film. (Just as yours obviously contribute to your opinions).

It's precisely because my N.Z./Aotearoa experience included police on hand and a criminal search element that was preoccupying people even as they grieved their loss of an innocent child, that I know that the movie rings false.

This GAPING HOLE was allowed by the director to all the better shock us later when we learned the son's role in the disaster. Ham-fisted manipulation. It could have been handled so that we looked back and said, "Aha!" re: some hints that piqued our curiosity without giving too much away. Lazy writing. Sorry. You're not going to convince me. We just have different standards re: emotional veracity and the scriptwriting thereof.

Go double-flip the bird to someone else, lil' doggie! I'm not wasting anymore time on you.

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[–] doggie_rodriguez 9 years ago

I said the calm demeanor was unbelievable given the enormity of the calamity they were enduring.

Maybe they didn't know what to say since they don't have experience going to funerals for school shooters?

There's grief and then there's shock compounded by anger, vengeance, dismay, panic.

And also there's just grief and confusion followed by not knowing what the hell to say (which was exactly what was going on at the funeral)

My funeral experiences are not in the LEAST irrelevant to MY experience of this film.

No, but your funeral experiences are irrelevant to the film itself. Period. They had nothing to do with the script, the acting, or the direction. You don't get to go around screaming "HUGE GAPING PLOT HOLE b/c one time in New Zealand something different happened!"

ALSO, PLOT HOLES ARE NOT SUBJECTIVE. So yeah, your personal experiences that led to you thinking this was a plot hole, really are irrelevant.

Yes, the girlfriend had endured harassment in the interim, but the contrast between her initial appreciation for the boy's sweetness toward her and the utter contempt and resentment she expressed later was jarring.

No, it's not jarring. Initially she's shocked. Then as time moves on she gets angry b/c she's constantly being harassed. THIS IS ADDRESSED IN THE FILM THAT YOU CLEARLY WEREN'T WATCHING. You even said earlier in your post that ANGER was one of the steps. Scroll up, I even put it in bold.

Go double-flip the bird to someone else, lil' doggie! I'm not wasting anymore time on you.

It's a forum pic. The fact that you even mentioned that shows you are insecure about your argument. Stay on topic or go away.

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[–] elay2433 9 years ago

Man, you make a great point. I really liked the movie, but felt tricked when it was revealed that he was the shooter. As someone else mentioned, I was so shocked when they dropped that bomb on us that I'd forgotten the funeral scene from earlier. I'd have to watch it again, but in my memory, it feels like it was purposefully set up to make us believe the kid was a victim rather than the shooter. Not exactly ham-fisted, but definite manipulation. Also, as you mentioned in a later post, a little foreshadowing would've gone a long way. Just the fact that this kid had music as an outlet, that he could write the music and lyrics as well as he did, were enough, in my mind anyway, to disqualify him as the sort to become the loner/shooter type.

Nice analysis. That such a grand suspension of disbelief was required of the audience in order to make having the kid the shooter believable was the only criticism I had of this film. But I couldn't have said it as well as you.

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[–] DeepCinema 9 years ago

Thank you ~ I mean, can you IMAGINE the chaos of such an aftermath? And the girlfriend would have to have been given a tranquilizer dart to be so calm and appreciative of her boyfriend after he pulled a psycho-bender of that magnitude!

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[–] Em0411 9 years ago

The chaos you mentioned was really well depicted in the movie We Need to Talk About Kevin. I never thought about the funeral scene but I was questioning the scene where the news crew went after the dad (Sam) in an earlier post. I thought they would normally not be asking the kinds of questions they were asking. And it would have been more of a mob scene. I still loved this movie though so I'm only calling it a minor quibble on my part but yes I did notice that detail as being off.

When you get up in the morning, how do you decide what shade of black to wear? (Shallow Grave)

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[–] BeOneOfUs 9 years ago

I can definitely see your point!
I don't think it is a HUGE plot hole though. As like someone else said, people grieve differently.
Fortunately, it doesn't spoil the film for me.
The music still makes it for me.

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[–] DeepCinema 9 years ago

O, it didn't spoil the plot for me either, just made it seem falsely calculated at that juncture.

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[–] BeOneOfUs 9 years ago

Another thing that didn't really add up, was how calm and normal the kid seemed/acted at the beginning, just before he went and shot up the school.
(When he was talking to his dad on the phone)
Wasn't believable at all.
Still, I enjoyed the film, none the less.

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[–] DeepCinema 9 years ago

I KNOW ~ Even if he was shown to be a tad marginalized, e.g. Goth, there would have been some legit fore-shadowing!

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[–] BeOneOfUs 9 years ago

Agreed. Even though him being a Goth might be a little stereotypical....It still would have worked.

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[–] DeepCinema 9 years ago

Even if WE couldn't suss out his motivations, his father and mother should have been rabid to know!

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[–] BeOneOfUs 9 years ago

Yep.....You do have a point lol.
Still, I gave this film an 8 because I really loved the music and the characters.
The ending was really effective too.

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[–] DeepCinema 9 years ago

I liked it for originality and daring. Just wished they fleshed out the humanity more.

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[–] BeOneOfUs 9 years ago

Yeah.
But it was William H Macy's first film. So, in that case, it was a nice attempt.

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[–] DeepCinema 9 years ago

True, dat!

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[–] sureynot13 9 years ago

I disagree with you guys. FIrst of all, I did not see the twist coming that Josh was the shooter. When they revealed it, I felt like I got smacked in the face. And then, in an instant, I thought back to beginning of the movie and I was like "Ooooooooh *beep* It was all there. It all makes sense."

The media hounding him. No one talking to him at his son's funeral. The one guy that does talk to him, Sam thanks him for coming. At a typical funeral, the father wouldn't be a pariah, nor would he seem so appreciative of the few people that did show up. The girl says "He was always so sweet TO ME." indicating, I never could've seen this coming. Sam's drinking and showing up at work drunk and acting so incredibly inappropriately. The scene where the mom goes and sees Sam at the boat to bring Josh's stuff, she says "Make no mistake, you're hiding." The fact that he doesn't even want Josh's stuff, that he's willing to just throw it out at first. The fact that he tells his new co-workers obviously false stories like he used to be in the CIA, instead of just telling them he had a child who passed away. The fact that he doesn't tell Quentin (or the rest of the band) that they are his son's songs. I was like "what's the big deal? Tell him, he'll appreciate that you are playing your son's music."

You guys said Josh's behavior before the shooting wasn't weird enough. The very first scene of the movie, a kid interrupts Josh playing his music and Josh shoots *beep* daggers at him. Go back and watch that scene in the context of Josh being the shooter and you'll see what I mean. Later Sam is listening to that very recording and hears Josh say afterwards something to the effect of "I hate everyone here." When Sam does call him, and say "I have good news, and I want to celebrate with my son." Josh seems disconnected. In fact, at one point he even looks in the direction of the road for a second, almost like he is deciding if he should go or not, and then just heads back towards campus.

They left so many clues that Josh was the shooter that I felt kind of stupid after the reveal. But it also felt right, because Sam's behavior for the whole movie was SO disconnected. I chalked it up to a father not knowing how to deal with his son's death, but it made much more sense once I knew Josh was the shooter.

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[–] BeOneOfUs 9 years ago

Interesting points, buddy ^^
And for the most I agree.

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[–] Em0411 9 years ago

Those scenes definitely tell us something is wrong, the funeral one and the one in the dorm when the son is interrupted, he doesn't answer the other student asking him if he'd seen someone, instead just stares at him, and the guy says guess not and leaves. Then the son mutters I've got to get out of here.

When you get up in the morning, how do you decide what shade of black to wear? (Shallow Grave)

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] jorgemgarcia25 8 years ago

They couldn't reveal up front that the son was the shooter. Had they done so, it would have been a COMPLETELY different story and movie. Had we known up front he was the shooter, we would have hated him and his songs from the start. Not knowing allowed us to connect with the young man and the love his father had for him. They wanted us to know he was human, had some good in him (it takes some heart to write beautiful music) and was loved by his parents. Then, when they reveal later on that he was the shooter, it tosses everything upside down and MAKES YOU QUESTION everything. "Oh my God, is it possible that a monster may also have had some good in him"? "Oh my God, is it still okay to like or love a part of this young man"? It made me question my feelings. Could I find any redeeming quality in the kid, or now have all my feelings darkened and soured?

You're focusing too much on the details of the funeral and creating a plot hole that doesn't really exist. You're overthinking it and not allowing yourself to see and feel the true questions and messages. The writer and director didn't try to FOOL you at the funeral or at the cemetery. The scenes were purposefully very short and they showed sufficient amounts of grief. The scenes showed you hounding reporters and helicopters. You could see it was a big deal. It was real and accurate.

Don't feel deceived by a minor detail. Step aside and try to understand the reason why the story was told the way it was. I admit I was SHOCKED as well, but I appreciated the surprise. It made me ask many questions to myself and evaluate my feelings.

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[–] JakeZen2 9 years ago

Agreed, I totally thought your movie and script was way better, tighter and I could not find a single a hole in the plot. Well, except for that one scene where the guy just sits on the couch and watches movies and nitpicks details on IMDB like he could do a way better job. I just didn't buy it, I can't image that happening in real life.

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[–] doggie_rodriguez 9 years ago

 I would have done a spit take after reading this if I had been drinking something.

I love when people nitpick about dramas or comedies, but buy everything a sci-fi movie throws at them.

"Star Wars, yeah that could happen, but When Harry Met Sally? That would never happen in a million years! PLOT HOLE!"

As a writer/filmmaker myself, writing scripts (and then filming them) is way harder than the average couch potato could ever imagine.

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[–] firelion8000 8 years ago

Not the same thing at all. Sci fi makes sense in its context. For example, in the universe this movie is in, magic exists. That's not a plot hole, it's part of the story. Any movie, be it drama, thriller, action, Sci fi, Rom Com, fantasy, whatever, can have a plot hole. Star Wars doesn't have a plot hole because they use the Force, but it could have a plot hole in the storyline. So can When Harry Met Sally.

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[–] doggie_rodriguez 8 years ago

Sci fi makes sense in its context.

So do dramas and comedies.

Any movie, be it drama, thriller, action, Sci fi, Rom Com, fantasy, whatever, can have a plot hole.

I never said otherwise. I'm not even sure why you are lecturing me on this.

Star Wars doesn't have a plot hole because they use the Force

And this movie doesn't have a "plot hole" b/c someone in New Zealand had a different funeral experience than the one in this film.

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[–] Deeana 9 years ago

Well I don't kbow about anyone else, but if I was at the funeral of a killer I would probably be quiet and awkward. I think this was what was ddepicted at the wake. Sam is sitting alone and one person comes to speak to him. In the background one guy awkwardly smiles at him.

I'm sure a lot of people the family knew did not attend the funeral because of what he had done. We don't really see what the mourners are talking about. What do you really say when something like that happens?

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[–] doggie_rodriguez 9 years ago

That's what I said too. I don't think there are a set of rules for how people should mourn, especially when it's as something as terrible (and rare) as a school shooting.

I know school shootings seem to be on the news all the time now, but honestly, how many of us have ever gone to a funeral of a school shooter? I never have. I certainly wouldn't know how to act. And I certainly wouldn't want to be criticized for not acting appropriately....b/c we have no idea what appropriate even is for that scenario.

I didn't have a problem with how the scene was portrayed. It certainly isn't a gaping plot hole. It's not even a minor one.

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[–] Kraeg 9 years ago

I think that calling this a HUGE gaping hole in the plot is going too far while I do understand your feeling that scene wasn't true to life...

I think it is sometimes easy to forget that films are not meant to 100% depict real life, and that they are going to stretch the story in order to further the topic. In this case, we are left with the shocker, not because it makes for good film but it was for us, the audience, to get to see it from the parents, and the girlfriends, and probably many others, point of view. When this happens in real life, we are all exposed to the monster that the person is via the various media outlets reporting on the story. In this case, the opposite is true and we were all introduced to a sensitive young man, who's life was cut short due to a school shooting. We hear the beautiful music and lyrics he has written, and we come to appreciate him as a person rather than as a picture held up on that one day of violence. I believe, this is to serve as a reminder that there are human beings left behind at the center of these tragedies, that saw these 'monsters' as the people they were aside from their heinous acts, and that they continue to deal with the emotional trauma long after the rest of us have moved on to the next media event.

As to the gathering, I imagine people there would have likely been calm. Those that chose to attend would have no idea how they felt yet, nor how to speak to the parents or others about this. His girlfriend went through, what I believe to be, a quite natural progression. She knew him and couldn't wrap her head around it when it happened. All she knew was how nice he was. I doubt she had yet reconciled the person that became the shooter with the person she knew. After two years, and being hounded by the media, she was inclined to see the person that caused this horrible event, and the impact it has had on her. But at that time, in that moment, at the funeral it was all very new, and wandering around quietly, in a state of shock, seems to me to be quite a normal reaction.

So... to sum up, while I don't see it as the gaping hole that you do, I would also grant license to it if I did, to serve the greater story, rather than just the words written on the page.

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[–] DeepCinema 9 years ago

Thank you for such a thoughtful response. Truly. Much appreciated.

I still hold that the brouhaha surrounding such a violent occurrence would have a number of the attendees overwrought. Also, there would likely have been protestors outside and possibly infiltrating. AND the parents may well have had difficulty finding an undertaker who would have taken the son!

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[–] schnoidl 9 years ago

that's not a hole, that's a crappy manipulative move that entirely undermines the whole movie. Macy should be ashamed of himself, stupid hangdog empty suit. No wonder he gets cast as losers all the time.

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[–] hgnhouse 9 years ago

I'm not sure that the behavior at the funeral was that out of sync with what might happen. Everyone was in shock. No one one knew what to say or do. At a funeral of someone who didn't kill six people, there'd be more sympathetic noises, for sure. At this one, some people tried to be kind, but many were merely awkward.

If any of you have been through a really, really rough time, you might recognize that this depiction was probably more right that not.

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[–] AnonymousBoy 9 years ago

Why do you say sniper? I didn't hear at any point in the film where they say it was a sniper.

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[–] lorrigirl 8 years ago

They were in shock and it wasn't like the house was packed with mourners. Nothing is explained because they are unable to explain what went wrong with Josh, it was out of left field.

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