Hints of racism?


Please don't hate me. I saw the film recently and was quite taken aback by the portrayal of white people. They are depicted as naive, ignorant of Asia, obsessed with money, or some other permutation thereof.

Don't get me wrong, I do not want to downplay the role that white people played in colonising many parts of the world. But I want to make the point that if this were an American-made movie which portrayed Asians similarly to how whites were caricatured here, then the film makers would widely be accused of being racists. See this thread (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1598778/board/thread/188212257?p=1) as a case in point for the movie Contagion.

What I suggest is that in this film, all of the white people shown- and there are quite a few- are given a very narrow and shallow characterisation. They are caricatures of popularly-held stereotypes of white people. Other characters, such as Sun Yat-Sen are glorified practically to the point of apotheosis. I do not proclaim to be an expert in Chinese history, but we all know that this movie is an embellished (at best) representation of historical events.

Why does this irk me so much? As a white guy living in Singapore, I feel this movie feeds into widely-help stereotypes about white people. Just like some people (occasionally correctly) accuse American movies of misrepresenting peoples and countries, I feel like this film misrepresents white people, and does so in a way that solidifies widely held, negative, and not entirely true beliefs. White people as naive, as blatantly disrespectful towards others who are not white, as having no desires other than to imperialise other lands and make money off the suffering of those of a different race, as being overly pretentious, egotistical, selfish, etc.. Based on the history of European colonisation in Asia, I would be wrong to say that these things were entirely untrue. But the way it's depicted here is in all liklihood simplistic and gives rise to a rather narrow and anti-white view of history (just how when white people conquered other lands, it's called "colonialism", but historians seldom use that word for non-white peoples who have exhibited similar behaviours). History is much more complicated than that... and, although it might be politically correct to think so- much more so to articule- it is quite likely that many colonial and corporate people at the time did not desire to see all non-white people suffer. I would bet that then, as with now, some white people saw Asians as their equals and did genuinely concern themselves with the welfare of people- and not just their own pockets.

Another reason it irks me is the double-standard by which racism against white people seems perfectly acceptable. A white person accusing someone else of anti-white racism might be seen as him/herself racist just by making that accusation. At the same time, movies that have one black character selling drugs will have 1500 people call it racist. And I don't mean that in any way to be disrespectful towards black people. I can even see their point when they consider it racist- such movies perpetuate stereotypes which, while based on some empirical instance of truth, are overly simplistic and not a healthy way to see the world.

Anyway, these were just thoughts I had after seeing the movie (and after reading the aforementioned thread about Contagion). I would love to hear the thoughts and opinions of others, preferably without resorting to any sort of personal or racist attacks. Thanks!

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That's because it's true.

The white man thought that Native Americans were Indians. They considered the Chinese and Japanese as barbaric. They enslaved the black people for being dirty.

The white man is ignorant and naive of other cultures.

They bitch and moan about Asian culture of eating dogs and cats (few of which really do, so more ignorance) because THEY don't eat dogs and cats. Well you know what? Indians don't eat beef and Muslims don't eat pork. But you don't see them bitching about the American Big Macs and Bacon that they eat all the time.

The white man consumes more pig and cows than any asians eat dogs and cats. In fact they eat more than all other countries combined.

The Indians and Muslims are wise enough to not meddle in other culture's business. The white man? If they don't conform, we invade them!

The white man has invaded more countries, destroyed more cultures, and raped more women than any other culture in the world. The white man destroyed the Native Americans, Aztecs, and Mayans and took over their lands of the Americas. The white man enslaved the black people in Africa. The white man occupied India for decades. The white man destroyed China with opium. The white man nuked Japan and their soldiers still rape little Japanese girls to this day. The white man invaded Iraq and killed more citizens than Saddam Hussein did.

Anyways, it's no different from hollywood films portraying asians as yellow-skinned slit-eyed barbarians that wear ancient chinese clothing, buck teeth, FOB accent, and eat dogs for breakfast.

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Not sure if trolling...

But in case you aren't...

Your post is clearly racist and exaggerated. Let's get some things straight.

Yes, the European's treatment of the Native Americans was appalling. But tell me a country where the majority group treat the indigenous minority groups in a humane way. Look at how indigenous peoples are treated in China and Myanmar, just to name two examples.

No one condones white enslavement of black people. But let's not forget that Arabs took many black slaves as well- in fact, considering they were involved in the slave trade for much longer than Europeans, they probably took more Africans on a whole. But no one seems to remember or care about that.

Oh and what about the fact that Africans were capturing and selling other Africans into slavery? Again, I'm not trying to condone the historical behaviour of Europeans, but it is ridiculous to only hold them accountable and to exonerate other peoples involved in the same sorts of activities.

"The white man is ignorant and naive of other cultures". Fair enough. But who isn't? As someone who has lived in Asia for a few years, I can tell you that most Asians are ignorant ant naive of other cultures as well. Most people in this world are simply because they might not have had a lot of exposure.

"They bitch and moan about Asian culture of [sic] eating dogs and cats". Fair enough, but Singaporeans also bitch and moan about people from China eating dogs and cats. But of course it's ok when Singaporeans bitch and moan because they have yellow skin?

Oh, and Muslims, at least in Singapore, bitch and moan ALL THE TIME about other people eating pork. Just so you know.

"The Indians and Muslims are wise enough to not meddle in other culture's business". Really? Not sure if trolling here, but it's a very hard argument to make that Muslims do not meddle in other culture's business. Unless you believe that Islam just *happened* to arise in countries like Morocco and Indonesia- thousands of miles away from the Muslim holy land-, without the forcible conversion of the natives. Oh, but when non-white people convert people, it's not meddling at all is it? Then what is it?

As for the Indians.... ALL of southeast asia has historical Indian influence. As far as out as the islands of Java and Bali. The latter is still Hindu today. Do you think the religion just spread there by accident?

"The white man has invaded more countries, destroyed more cultures, and raped more woman than any other culture in the world." Lotttts of problems with this statement.

Firstly, "white men" do not make up one culture. They make up dozens of cultures. It was only a few that ever went out "Destroying" other cultures- namely, Portuguese, Spanish, French, English, Belgian, Dutch and German. What about the Irish? They are victims just like other people- their culture was almost destroyed by the British. What about the Polish who have been invaded and colonised by many different countries over the years? What about the Jews, who have been persecuted, enslaved and murdered for thousands of years? Or do they just not count.

Secondly, non-white people have been invading, destroying and raping for centuries... JUST LIKE white people. No more, no less. Many sub-Saharan African societies were in a perpetual state of tribal warfare until recently (and some still are). The Aztecs and Incans pillaged, raped and conquered their countryside- which is how they got so powerful. And to be fair, they were HATED by most other natives- which is why the latter were willing to ally with folks like Cortes.

Honestly, I don't blame you for your post. It's easy to have these unfortunate beliefs. Just like Hollywood's occasionally racist portrayal of Asians, Africans and others, the racist portrayal of white people is what has led to worldviews like yours. But it's not really logical... it's reaffirming the view that white folks are evil based on the assumption that white folks are evil. My position is not that white people are in any way superior... but if you're going to use the historical argument, than other peoples did things that were just as bad, but it's only the white people who take the heat.

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So I guess that gives a pass to the barbarism and oppression of the Mongols, Japanese etc. Or Pol Pot's auto-genocidal mania in Cambodia or the tens of millions of Chinese people Mao and his band of fascists killed with various schemes from mass murder in re-education camps to hare brained agricultural ideas that caused mass famines

Hint, the Japanese murdered more civilians in Nanking in 1937, AFTER THE CITY SURRENDERED, than both of our atomic bombs killed in their cities BEFORE THEY SURRENDERED, in a war the JAPANESE started!

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Guess that guy never heard of the Mongols, yet he talks about ignorance. Oh the irony!

At the edge of our hope, we have chosen to believe in each other

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Probably the most worthwile reading I've done in all my time here at IMDb. Cheers.

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@DiggJigg ..excuse me but you left out HAWAII. This documentary about what was done to my ppl by the grandchildren of the missionaries will make you PUKE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpsmUCtsd2oIt wasn't until our Queen met slaves for her first time on the back of a train to England, where she was put due to her "negroid" features after being invited to England by their queen, that she found out how nefarious and deceptive they were. After hearing the stories from the slaves of how they were kidnapped from Africa ..our queen raced back home but it was to late. They had already infected low wage chinese workers w/ deseases and released them to rape the women and dumped 2000 Hawaiian boys and men at sea(after promising their parents and wives they would be taken to to the mainland to earn plenty money, then brought back. The males never made it to the mainland. They also spread Leprosy amongst the ppl forcing the queen to colonized those infected on the island of Molokai (until few years back)Kalaupapa, Molokai -- The Last Leper Colony link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbdWsNJm83U

My IMDb credentials:
http://www.imdb.com/user/ur7441441/comments

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What you have just said basically, is that the white man/caucasians, were stronger and smarter than the other races and cultures and took what they wanted, when they wanted because they were stronger, smarter and has a superior culture which enabled them to move into areas of the world to garner raw materials, slaves, gold and other goods with little to no futile resistence.
It's the white/anglo saxon culture that enabled them to do so; white people basically rule the world and would still do so except for periods of abject stupidity and cowardly appeasement by self-hating liberals who extoll and glorify failed and horrible cultures over their own. All this to appear cool and intelligent to their packs of similarily deficient in basic intelligence oung and ignornat liberal tools.
You do know that the northern "chinese" were mostley celts and it was the white man who invented the wheel, gunpowder, looms and animal husbandry in the steppes of the world? The modern chinese government had to confiscate and stop archeological digs becuase of the facts uncovered by scientists that showed that most of the mongols were caucasian, most of the early inventions were caucasion and it was only after the mongols settled down Beijing area as the Manchu dynasties in China, that they interbred with locals over time, the real mongloid races, that most of modern day chinese "look" chinese.
When you actually study genetics, anthropology, history and archeology, get back to me to further discuss this interesting topic.

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mapanari,I think you might have some delusional disorders,and you sound really like some sort of a cultist of White power skinhead ! Did you just "imagine" or "invent" all these so-called "facts" all by yourself ?(such as"ancient northern Chinese were Celts","Mongols were Caucasians","Chinese are interbred of Caucasian and Mongols","Chinese gov have to confiscate these facts"...etc) Do you even know you're contradicting yourself ? Do you even know that "Mongol" actually is NOT a "race" but only a name of a barbaric tribe that emerged after 12th century? The so-called "Mongol"as a nation wasn't even exist until 12th century and "Mongoloid" is also NOT a "race" but an extremely biased term invented by European.

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Wow, "The white man is ignorant and naive of other cultures." I think you are the ignorant one here. Don't generalize, fool! Yes, "the white man" did/do horrible things, but not every white man. You can't generalize because of someone's skin colour.

Thanks to people like you (generalists), there is still racism in the world.

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@rliamo148

You wrote, "I dont want to downplay the role that white people played in colonising many parts of the world". Wow! colonising, what an eloquent way of putting it ..until of course we get to the truth behind those words lol. Anyway, until you realize that in history there will always be 3,4 sides to the story ..you will always remain blind to the facts.

Me, myself ..I've learned its not wise to judge a whole group for the actions of one, considering that is what causes ppl to become bias, blind, and ignorant. I've learned to accept there are simply bad and good ppl in the world. End of story.


~~~~~ No two persons ever watch the same movie ~~~~~

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First of all I haven't seen the movie and I got pissed when I saw that AMC theaters had released it already over a month ago and I completely missed it.

There are some people who love to dwell on the past. White, (mainly the British) did in fact try to rule over everyone. They had the power and used it, it's what empires do. Although people who complain about that seem to miss that Africans perfected slavery long before Europeans did. Also I need to point out that many of Euro traders who took slaves from Africa actually got some of those slaves because they were sold to the Europeans by other Africans.

Just because Europeans were victorious at conquering other cultures doesn't mean other cultures didn't try. Muslims tried during the middle ages. Lets not forget Ghengis Khan who conquered all of Asia and tried to push into Europe and Africa. The point I try to make is that the only reason some people dwell on the past is because they have a bad attitude. Morgan Freeman said the best way to stop racism is to simply stop talking about it. Stop making it an issue and stop making movies about it.

Yes you are reading my signature.

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Playing the race/nationalist card is what 'media' does in certain environments. It feeds off the public. Look at yellow journalism during the turn of the century (having nothing to do with skin color, but the color of the paper it was printed on). It was an era of silly exaggerations and simplifications that only the most naive and ignorant would truly buy into.

So, after several hundred years of infinite suffering, the Chinese people are treated to their own versions of simplistic images. I would guess that a good number of them don't believe such easy caricatures (though images of sadistic Japanese soldiers can ring true).

Every nation needs it's 'enemy' to rally the people, to deflect blame. Many Westerns truly share the blame for this period in China. But at least they also show that much of the blame rested with the Chinese and their lack of will.

I don't see the racism so much, as I see simplistic stereotypes (and western actors in Chinese movies over and over again). At least, in this case, the Western bands pulled their loan and helped push the revolution.

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racism against us white people should be encouraged, just for the sake of all the *beep* we've done to other races!

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i'll never understand how white ppl cry racism for anything

the fking world belongs to you, quit crying

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That is itsself a racist remark! Having lived in Asia for a few years, I've dealt with enough nasty remarks and rude treatment to know that racism is real and does affect white people as well as every other type of person. I don't buy this whole "white people deserve it" bulls**t because, while ancestors of some European countries indeed did some nasty things to different peoples, I never did. And, being a Jew, "my people" were just as victimised as people of other races, yet I get automatically pigeonholed as a coloniser.

And I also don't buy that the world belongs to white people. Maybe 10 years ago, you would be certainly right. But this is a simplistic way to see the world today, which increasingly belongs to Asians.

I don't have a problem with that or with Asians at all. I'm happy to live in Asia. I just feel it's important to recognise that racism against white people, especially in countries where white people do not make up a majority, does exist and it should be dealt with just like other forms of racism ought to be.

And of course I recognise that the American media is quite racist against non-white groups. But it has gotten better over the last 70 years or so.

And I'm not sure I know that many people in Asia understand that these simplistic stereotypes are simplistic. I've interacted with many people, even in a cosmopolitan and well-educated society like Singapore, who still believe that all white people are rich and neocolonisers. This is simply not true and in this world we should learn to see people for who they are, regardless of their "race" or what we perceive their ancestors to have done.

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Why do you concern 'race' so much ? All i see were some greedy bankers and evil diplomats screwing a then 3rd world country. ANyway, you look and talk like a total idiot to me. (I checked through my message and I believe there is not a thing depriving your race or nationality. Hurrah.)

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No need for personal insults here, although I recognise they are not racial, they are still unnecessary and you have no idea who I am.

If you actually read my OP you will see I merely wanted to open up a dialogue, I did not accuse the producers of the film of vile racism. As a white person living in Asia, I believe there ought to be dialog about the simplistic views of white people among Asians in Asia, just like many many people like to analyse almost every Hollywood movie and read racial overtones where they often don't exist.

I think it's a reasonable debate to open and it saddens me that no one is able to engage in this debate without resorting to personal and/or racist attacks.

Read the IVLE forum about Contagion if you don't believe me... I posted the link in my OP. If people sincerely think that film is a racist attack on Asians, then this one surely deserves to be analysed.

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Of course racism exists against white people if you are in their country and you are in the minority. Hopefully like white countries it is only a small element but I have also traveled through Asia and believe me you can be treated like a leper in some areas especially when they have nothing to gain by your presence and they see themselves to be superior in some way to yourself.

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Or take Africa as prime example of non white prowess.
Oldest inhnabited region in the world, most primitive and backwards indigenous people, the farther one gets from Europe or the Middle East

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Comments like this are the reason that so many people hate white folks.

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You're so right, after all we all know that whitey stole all his inventions from Africa
Or in other words, truth hurts.
Nor do I find fault in the way most whites were portrayed in the film. The racism against the Chinese was rampant and legal back then. It was not just social snobbery. The Euros walked all over China. But actually the USA was one of China's better white friends since we tried to be fair and decent to them, at least in comparison to the English and the Germans.

Did you know that in reprisal for the murder of ONE German consul in the Boxer Rebellion, Kaiser Wilhelm ll not Adolph Hitler, ordered his troops to rampage throughout China, randomly murdering anyone they pleased. Over 100K Chinese were murdered in retaliation for one German's death.

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Although I do not condone the white man's aggressive ways of invading and enslaving other cultures (most notably people of the African variety), I do applaud the white man's inventions and scientific research which has contributed to the evolution of human society.

Jakealope is correct that the African man has done nothing of real benefit to human society. I cannot see any invention or scientific research done by a African man that has benefited human society in any way whatsoever. The only thing that the African man has accomplished is breaking world records at running, basketball, and football.

Quite frankly, Africans have no culture whatsoever. Any sort of "culture" they have of tradition and heritage is barbaric and primitive. There is nothing noteworthy in their history nor does it make a good tourist attraction (besides the Safaris).

The only culture that the Africans gave to human society is this so called "gangsta" and "rap" culture. And I highly doubt this subculture is of benefit to society in any shape or form. Rather I believe this subculture is harmful and detrimental to human society.

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Actually, BEYOND ignorant.

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I agree that there was a lot of subtle racism as well as blatant racism. The portrayal of Lea as cross between Charlie Chaplin, Toulouse-Lautrec and an intellectually challenged, wolf is just the most glaring.

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majority of people, regardless of race, is naive, ignorant of other cultures thna thier own and obsessed with material possesion.

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Applied Science? All science is applied. Eventually.

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Obviously, not too many people actually watched this film.

First, the 'white people' portrayed in 1911 were businessmen and diplomats. They were concerned with making money and gaining political power. What you are calling 'racism' is merely callousness. The same thing we see today in the Republican Party.

Second, Doctor Sun utters the classic line: "So the Chinese race can stand up and assume its rightful place in the world..." This I think was the real goal of the revolution. And, there is nothing wrong with that. No leader could maintain his position in the 20th Century by spouting liberal nonsense. These were times of Nationalism, like it or not.

Third, There are white people in the film who are not racists. The gentleman whom Doctor Sun made his military adviser, and several Christian nurses. (To name a few.)

Fourth, I thought this was an interesting film. We need to know more about Chinese history, and how the Chinese view history. After all, they are poised to assume the position formerly held by the United States and Great Britain, in the world.

Fifth, This is all 'history'. For good or ill, it is the 'spin-doctors' who interpret history. Everything that you are protesting (i.e., the treatment of American Indians, Africans, etc.) is over. There is nothing we can do to change any of it - except to revise history! I think everyone does this in their own mind. Nonetheless, there is no point in feeling guilty about any of it.

Now and forever, the Masters make the rules for the wise men and the fools....

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Wow, some of the comments here are unbelievable. Anybody who doesn't understand racism as it exists everywhere, especially asia and then attributes it as some sort of White Guy Only phenomenon is simply ignorant.

Like the original poster I live in Asia and have for several years. You want to see some hard core racism then head over here. And if you can't do that then just make the effort of learning something about this part of the world's history. I mean, it's easy to start with Chinese, Japanese and Koreans with their long history of killing each other but how about just seeing how people within individual countries treat their fellow countrymen who live in the hills or work on farms. My god, this is the real deal.

But I haven't actually seen the movie. Mainly because everything I've read describes it as embarrassingly bad and a really clunky nationalistic piece of propaganda. Sure, you can take that and go off on western, clunky nationalistic pieces of propaganda but that doesn't make me want to see this one any more than before.

I'm always amused by people that have assumptions about westerners or Americans more specifically as if their failings are unique to that part of the world. It's again coming from profound ignorance and really a sort of racism as it presumes that darker skinned people do not share the same capability in the human experience.

But what is most rewarding is when some new person rolls into town and utters something about how westerners (again usually Americans) are so jingoistic and then I get a chance a year later to see what they think. That usually gives them an opportunity to realize that the natives aren't the innocent savages that they expected but human beings capable of being as bad as anybody.

Finally, I can't imagine that I'd be upset with the portrayal of white people in this movie because asian movies are famous for such ridiculous stereotypes of the white devil. My girlfriend is Korean and I always joke with her about how no Korean movie is complete until the white devil makes an appearance.

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Quite frankly at least one major element of the "negative" portrayal of white people in this film has to do with the fact that the white actors they hired for this film are TERRIBLE. I mean, where did they get these people? Off the streets? I've seen seventh grade plays with better acting.

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The reverse is also true. Specifically western movies with Asian extras. It's basically a budget issue.

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