MovieChat Forums > Ender's Game (2013) Discussion > For me, Ender was a fool in the end.

For me, Ender was a fool in the end.

posted 10 years ago by cirobolzani
109 replies | jump to latest

For me, Ender was a fool in the end. I love all life, but i hate bugs and insects so much. I tolerate their existence because they are important to the environment and all but if alien invaders tried to destroy earth and looked like that they would get no love or pity from me. Especially the bug queen. I would go after them Starship Troopers style.

If only they contacted us in peace... I remember an Insect dealer in the Series Babylon 5 that got along with humans just fine.

I was never one to hold grudges Jeffrey. My father held grudges, I'll always hate him for that.

[–] ExjiV 10 years ago

You clearly misunderstood the movie in the first place, the Formics were not trying to destroy Earth. They arrived in search of water, us Humans in the movie responded with military force which is why that first battle took place. We drove them away and despite our victory, the Formics never retaliated (50 years went by in the movie without any further hostility from them). Even in the first "simulation", the Formics were simply harvesting water minding their own business. It wasn't until our fleet began moving in on them that they mobilized to defend themselves. Same with the final "simulation", the Formic army was in a defensive position, they did not engage until engaged upon. What part of any of that makes the Formics out to be a hostile race looking to destroy us Humans? Rational thinking would tell someone that they simply ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time (their first contact with Earth).

If only they contacted us in peace... I remember an Insect dealer in the Series Babylon 5 that got along with humans just fine.

They never got a chance to, our military took the "shoot first ask questions later" approach...

You say Ender was the fool, yet he was the only one who cared enough to even attempt communication. And despite the fact that Humans just wiped out the entire Formic species aside from the Queen and her baby, she was still understanding enough to trust Ender with the future of her species.

The sad thing is that this movie depicts reality a lot more than one might think. Humans tend to react violently out of fear, causing us to burn bridges before ever getting the chance to cross them. I mean come on, we do it to OURSELVES...if that's not something to learn from then idk what to say for the future of our own race.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

It does not make sense that they will harmlessly looking for water, water is a simple molcue, take two Hydrogen atoms and combine it with one Oxygen atom and you have water. These two elements are very abundant in the Universe, Hydrogen is the most abundant while Oxygen is the 3rd most abundant. They could harvest water from nearly anything in the Universe and manufacture water. Yet they ATTACKED Earth in order to colonize it. As for not engaging, means nothing. I have posted upon their being an violent species in my thread listed in my other post on this thread.

[–] intotrance 10 years ago

It does not make sense that they will harmlessly looking for water, water is a simple molcue, take two Hydrogen atoms and combine it with one Oxygen atom and you have water. These two elements are very abundant in the Universe, Hydrogen is the most abundant while Oxygen is the 3rd most abundant. They could harvest water from nearly anything in the Universe and manufacture water.

If it's that easy, why are there ever any water supply shortages? It's not that easy. Water is necessary for life, Formics are life, therefor they will go where they see water so that they can continue to live.

Yet they ATTACKED Earth in order to colonize it.

They didn't "attack" anything in their view, that is the whole point of the story which you have missed. They had no idea humans were sentient, like millions of Queens, capable of free will and higher intellectual thoughts. In their eyes, they were moving an anthill (for a human POV that we can all relate to) to get at the resources below it.

As for not engaging, means nothing. I have posted upon their being an violent species in my thread listed in my other post on this thread.

They are no more inherently violent than any other species that might take weaponry into unknown lands or areas of the universe. Being prepared does not make you violent. Using your preparations when a situation arises (these ants are biting back because we're trying to move their anthill) that call for it, does not make you violent.

In your haste to find some check-out-my-awesome-hidding-meaning-guys!!! you've missed all of the themes of the story. You tell everyone else to read and view between the lines, yet you are just as concerete and unoriginal in your analysis as you accuse those who actually understood and appreciate the story of being.

[–] thomas998 10 years ago

You mention water shortages. That is why they never came in peace. As soon as they sucked up the first bit of a life sustaining thing like water from earth it was the same thing as a direct attack.

[–] intotrance 10 years ago

Why would they "come in peace?" Who is arguing for that?

They didn't consider us a sentient species. We don't have "peace" with insects.

It was only after they discovered that each one of us was a living, sentient being that they stopped their efforts.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

They sure don't sound to morally or intellectually superior if they simply come into a new Solar System and start attacking any civilization there. Any development project now days as to go through a long list of studies and environmental impact reports before they can begin, yet according to book we are suppose to be the violent ones? Further, how does

They didn't consider us a sentient species.

Consistent with another statement of yours that killing a few drones was how Queens greeted each other. This last statement implies that by killing humans they were attempting to greet the Human Queen. Which they would only do if they considered us a sentient species.

WarIs2Important2BLeft2PoliticiansTheyHaveNeitherTheTimeTheTrainingNorTheInclination4StrategicThought

[–] electrictroy 8 years ago

In Enders Game 2 - Speaker for the Dead, the adult Ender spends his life trying to make amends for being a "fool" during his youth. You should read the book, as many fans consider the sequel better than the original.

[–] Orion775 10 years ago

I love that analogy.

Alien 1: Oh look, there are some things down here, let's check it out..."

Alien 2: "Howdy guys - "

*Pew*Pew*

Alien 2: "OH HELL! THE NATIVES ARE RESTLESS!!!!"

Alien 1: "CHEESE IT BOYS!"

Alien 1: "Mark that quadrant as hostile and let's move on..."

--- 50 Years Later ---

Alien 2: "Oh dang, remember those sentient bipedal things we pissed off 50 years ago? We may have killed a large amount of them just trying to get the hell out of there. Lively bunch they were."

Alien 1: "No...? There have been a few..."

Alien 2: "Well they remember us, and they sure know how to hold a grudge."

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] super-staff 10 years ago

You couldn't be more wrong.

[–] dolores_medina 10 years ago

I Just Love it, when people do not pay attention to the actual movie, but instead assume what a Movie is through intellectual laziness, then try to " educate" the people that actually paid attention, about How they are" wrong" or " didn't get it."

The Movie is clear, about how the Formics were trying to communicate by using the game in battle school's computer. When Graff asked Anderson.." where did those images come from?" They came from the Formics.

That wasn't The Formics attacking, that was the Formics trying to establish communications.

Remember the scene with that seargent that was training him? He was asking questions the seargent could not answer. The seargent told him to shut up... and Ender asked " what if My question is relevant?"

At the end... he asked Graff.." How come they have not attacked?"

In other words, Even when faced by a large military presence over their homeworld, they still did not attack first. Ender asked relevant questions, but Just as with the seargent he did not get any.

What he did realize much later, at the end, is that while the Formics did not attack first, they HAD been " thinking at us...." They were trying to establish communications.

This is not a Rah Rah Rah we Kick serious ass yaa!!!!" type of movie. Ot is simple mental laziness to assume it is. This is not a " Bug Eyed Monstwers are coming to rape our women" 1950's movie.

Ender understood. Humanity took a pre-emptive genocidal strike against a sentient species that had not made a single violent move against them, in 50 years... out of fear. " to end all future wars".

Just because you can assume the " enemy " has genocidal intent, does not automatically mean they do. Orson Scott card assumed his readers were more intelligent that that, and would look beneath the surface, to see that not all was as " Plain and simple" as it appeared on the surface.

The Movie did not do as good a job in my opinion in communicating a lot of key features of the book, but one they DID.. was the ambiguity of the Formics in the movie's present. How they had formed No violent actions, and were passive, waiting... and How the RATIONAL course was that considered and offered by Ender.... dialogue.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1731141/board/thread/226022407

Good point. check out my Thread 'Peaceful? Says Who? Part 1 of Mispercieved Outcome Redux SPOLIERS' http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1731141/board/thread/226022407 and see why the Formics were NOT peaceful.

Check out this Awesome Poll & Vote Today http://www.imdb.com/poll/Fj3lPHF--Zw/

[–] marousha_n 10 years ago

Excellent post. Too bad so few people really understood the movie/book.

"Hollywood is run by small-minded people who like chopping the legs off creative people" T.Gilliam

[–] Snamien 9 years ago

I understood it, but some things bother me. First of all, it's hard to believe they had to come to earth to harvest water. And even when I accept that, since they obviously are technologically advanced, they should have the ability and intelligence to know who they were dealing with. Knowing that they really should try to communicate before landing here and simply start harvesting things.

I also find it a little hard to buy that it's an "either them or us who's the bastards" thing. A situation out of hand where both parties misunderstood would be easier to believe. I mean we have a lot of diplomats in the western world. It's borderline stupid at times how far we try diplomacy. But Ender is the only one who's really interested in any diplomatic approach, after 50 years?

Finally, he acted totally over the top when he eradicated them all. He was really rooting for himself for killing them in the simulation at one moment, which he had been training hard to manage the whole movie, and the next he acts like he's been supporting diplomacy and non violence the whole movie. If he knew so well that a diplomatic approach was possible, why didn't he really work for that much earlier? He was supposed to be so unbelievably clever too. The movies premise is that they couldn't have wiped out the Formics without him, so all the power was in his hands. I get that he could have had a real wake up moment after doing it, but it didn't feel right how it happened in the movie.

I liked the movie but the biggest problem for me was Enders behavior, which was annoying and a bit pathetic at times. His moral qualms should have been much more subtle, since he was working hard the whole movie to be good at killing Formics, and especially since he was a kid. Kids tend to be very tolerant for the moral they grow up with.

A subtle transformation of his moral up to the point of the final battle, which would put him in a moral apathy for a while, without all the screaming, tears and snot, and than deciding to seek out the queen would work very well for me.

I haven't read the book so I don't know if it differs from the movie in any of these things. Sorry for a long post!

[–] intotrance 9 years ago

Finally, he acted totally over the top when he eradicated them all. He was really rooting for himself for killing them in the simulation at one moment, which he had been training hard to manage the whole movie, and the next he acts like he's been supporting diplomacy and non violence the whole movie. If he knew so well that a diplomatic approach was possible, why didn't he really work for that much earlier? He was supposed to be so unbelievably clever too. The movies premise is that they couldn't have wiped out the Formics without him, so all the power was in his hands. I get that he could have had a real wake up moment after doing it, but it didn't feel right how it happened in the movie.

I liked the movie but the biggest problem for me was Enders behavior, which was annoying and a bit pathetic at times. His moral qualms should have been much more subtle, since he was working hard the whole movie to be good at killing Formics, and especially since he was a kid. Kids tend to be very tolerant for the moral they grow up with.

The above will be answered if you ..

I haven't read the book so I don't know if it differs from the movie in any of these things. Sorry for a long post!

Really a fantastic book. Well-written. I highly recommend it. The movie was good in that it brought the whole thing to visual life on a grandiose scale, but it did miss a lot of important details, moods, and atmospherics that are in the book. I watched the movie first, read the book, then watched the movie again: it was a path that worked for me, maybe it will for you.

I read the entire Ender series afterwards. Also highly recommended. Speaker for the Dead (sequel to Ender's Game) might be the best book of science fiction I've ever read.

[–] Snamien 9 years ago

Ok. I have periodes of life when I read books, but it's been a while. I'll have this book in my mind the Next time I want to read, because this is my kind of stuff.

[–] intotrance 9 years ago

Get Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead at the same time. Reading those back to back was a great experience.

[–] tad-32 10 years ago

LOL!!! If we reacted with genocide every time another group of Humans did this, the Earth would be one big cemetery.

[–] eschelar 10 years ago

#1 - Apparently the water thing was just made up for the movie... Motivations for things in the movie are dictated by the source material and it would appear that there is no validation for 'searching for water' from the source material, since this was never the case. Hence, it's a self-defeating argument.

#2 - if they have the technology to travel through space dozens, if not hundreds of light years away to invade planets, YES they COULD have harvested water from other sources. Your argument "If it's so abundant why are there ever water shortages" is not particularly relevant for this level of technology. I am 99.99% sure that tribes living in the Sahara do not have the technology level required for FTL interstellar travel.

#3 - I do like the idea that they viewed humanity as an unintelligent species. I actually wrote some fiction myself a number of years ago about the problems that would be faced by meeting an alien race that had never developed the concept of aural speech. The idea that speech represented intelligence wouldn't make any sense if they could A) not hear anything, B) used totally different senses for communication, ie smell, color or C)used totally different biological mechanisms for generating sounds that had nothing to do with vocal chords.

The more I explored it though, the more the idea fell apart though with the concept of writing. Writing in some form is necessary because computers are necessary at some point and computers *must* start with 0's and 1's, which in turn *must* derive from organized concepts such as a writing system, with a numerical system and a system of language to generate commands and complex code structures.

Any civilization clever enough to make these things would necessarily be clever enough to understand that "organized groups of life forms with technology" represents sentient, intelligent life.

Hence - yeah, as much as I'd like to think that it was never an attack to begin with, the reality is that it very, very likely was - and that any doubt about that fact towards the end of the movie is probably nothing more than a pollution implanted telepathically by the queen who saw impending doom.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

Regarding #3- Not to mention the fact that an intelligent Interstellar species would by necessity have sight, and would also, if they initially lacked the sense of hearing would have become area of vibrations as they developed machines, as vibrations is intrinsic to physics. As such they would likely have engineered their own species so as to add this sense. Just as our own species, through the course of tech advancement has become aware of electromagnetic waves, we are likely to engineer our species to communicate via electric signals. We are have already begun, Brain Computer Interface BCI. This too seems like a sense all Interstellar Species will have.

WarIs2Important2BLeft2PoliticiansTheyHaveNeitherTheTimeTheTrainingNorTheInclination4StrategicThought

[–] lucidanz-1 10 years ago

#2 they WERE harvesting water from other sources but evidently they stumped across a planet nearly FULL of it on earth...what is easier harvesting water from random moons, asteroid belts or a giant planet of it?

#3 you are unfortunately thinking human and not otherways. we think life must exist according to certain criteria but it doesnt make it so. things like writing and history taking thru that method seems obvious to us that any other species that was intelligent would follow the same path right? well what if they dont, what if they dont have to..what if even generation is born with the memories of its previous generation...what if memories are passed down like dna.

the movie didnt do nearly as good with these concepts as the books read Speaker of the Dead for example and the completely bizarre and strange culture of the Pequeninos that the humans encounter there. something that seems so vile, so barbaric to us but is none of these things to them. the shame here is the movie didnt do enough to justify the other books being turned into movies. because they really question the definition of life, civilization, society etc. which at the end of the day is pretty much the heart of card's series. there is a strong bit of irony that a man who is openly anti homosexual could write such books that raises the very questions of what is 'normal' and why there is no normal...the cultures, species etc can be vastly different and it doesnt make them wrong, bad or inferior...we simply dont 'get' them anymore then they 'get' us.

[–] eschelar 10 years ago

#2 - Still ridiculous. Water is made from Hydrogen and Oxygen. Both are exceptionally common and both appear to be critical for life. Largely because of their chemical characteristics (reactivity and versatility in types of chemical interactions). The idea that you would compare harvesting water from moons and other planets is silly since it would take hundreds of millions of years to exhaust the water on an Earth-like planet. But probably only a few million to expand colonization through the entire galaxy.

#3 - life is not all human and does not always follow the same rules. Some microbes have been found that do well in environments that should kill them. But the chemistry of life is fairly well understood and there aren't too many other ways you could arrange biological cells except with Hydrogen, Oxygen, Carbon (or possibly silicon)and Nitrogen as the primary building blocks.

As much as we like to take credit, we didn't invent chemistry. We just figured out a way of organizing it so it makes sense. So no, I'm not viewing things from a human point of view.

#3.2? - I fail to see what relevance the author's point of view on homosexuality has on his abilities to conceive and write science fiction. You probably wouldn't agree with my views on it either (which are, as you might expect, completely different from most prevailing views and are mostly tied in to the surprisingly loose role of chromosomes and other such nerdy science stuff). Doesn't mean I don't have the capacity to write stuff or don't know how society/sexuality/reproduction works.

It just means that highly opinionated people whose ideology is based on the "moral majority" rather than actually doing any real study would probably have a hissy fit and blow things all out of proportion if I discussed them in any detail.

[–] Strazdamonas 10 years ago

If it's that easy, why are there ever any water supply shortages? It's not that easy. Water is necessary for life, Formics are life, therefor they will go where they see water so that they can continue to live.

Because the countries that have such shortages are not allowed to be rich enough to create water?
surely a space faring race with FTL travel will be much better at it than an african nation, no?

And even if you couldnt make water, it is a million times easier to harvest water from asteroids than from planets. and asteroids in Kuiper belt alone (that is the belt around earth) have enough water to literraly drown our whole planet. harvesting water from planets just does not make sense.

---------------------------------------------
Applied Science? All science is applied. Eventually.

[–] emiranda061288 10 years ago

Do you even know basic chemistry? Why spend energy trying to make reactions when it is easier just to get the water. By your logic every molecule on the universe can be crafted without wasting some kind of energy.

[–] intotrance 10 years ago

By your logic every molecule on the universe can be crafted without wasting some kind of energy.

Exactly. You organized my thoughts and put them to words in a way that I couldn't.

Good point.

[–] luckiest_strike 10 years ago

because travelling across the universe in spaceships, sucking the water off a planet and carry it all the ay back to my homeplanet is the most energy effictient way to create water. especially since they apparently have frozen water orbiting their homeworld which they thaw and use.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

I think you meant *least inefficient

WarIs2Important2BLeft2PoliticiansTheyHaveNeitherTheTimeTheTrainingNorTheInclination4StrategicThought

[–] luckiest_strike 10 years ago

thank you for pointing out the sarcasm in my statement, captain obvious.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

I thought it was an omission. I thought you omitted *not

WarIs2Important2BLeft2PoliticiansTheyHaveNeitherTheTimeTheTrainingNorTheInclination4StrategicThought

[–] bmagee007 9 years ago

It takes a great deal of energy to remove the salt from the ocean water for human consumption.

[–] tehfynx 10 years ago

They could harvest water from nearly anything in the Universe and manufacture water.

You completely misunderstand universe and should at very least finish your highschool physics classes before posting such outrageous comments. Abundance of elements indicates nowhere near how easy it is to harvest them. Just a hint: you can't harvest oxygen and hydrogen from stars, which is where the abundance of them come from.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

Jupiter is mostly Hydrogen, and it is a massive planet. Hydrogen is the lightest element with a very low boiling point, as such it is sparse near a Star yet more abundant further out in a System. Hence the Jovian planets. It is likely that this is typical for most Systems.
http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Inorganic_Chemistry/Case_Studies/Contrasti ng_the_Natural_Abundance_of_Elements%3A_Earth_vs._Universe#Different_e lements_in_different_areas_-_Condensation_Sequence

As for Oxygen, it is the most abundant element IN the Earth's Crust, comprising 46.6%. It is also a big component of Mars. It is thought that Oxygen is a big component of all the planets.

I find your suggestion that Hydrogen and Oxygen are scarce outside of Stars to be exaggeration.

To add a little theoretical speculation to this discussion, I think in the future it may be possible, TO harvest the Stars. All one would need to do is pull material off the Star. This could be done with a gravitational field, and does happen in the Universe. If a Civilization is able to produce a black hole, say in the Oort Cloud, the Asteroid Belt, or among the Jovian planets, it would eventually increase in Mass, concentrating it, producing a narrower Gravitational Well but a stronger pull within that Well. This may eventually begin to pull material off a Star. We all know of Red Giants that have material pulled off by a nearby Black Hole, this is simply a modification of the principal. The main trouble would be producing a massive enough Black Hole. Again this is speculation, and would only be likely to extract Hydrogen and at the cost of destroying a System, which may be a tactic as I argue in my Thread 'A Discussion of Space Colonization' http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1731141/board/thread/225532501

Further speculation, I believe that eventually we will be able to manufacture Elements. After all, a Hydrogen atom is only a Proton and an Electron. Doesn't it strike in one else as strange that we are able to produce elements in our Cyclotrons and Colliders, but only highly unstable Elements? I mean, it proves that the manufacture of Elements IS possible, all we need to do is refine it and produce useful Elements. Again Speculation.

WarIs2Important2BLeft2PoliticiansTheyHaveNeitherTheTimeTheTrainingNorTheInclination4StrategicThought

[–] FullyOperationalSamaritan 10 years ago

Wow Outward, where did you find the time to troll all the threads on here?

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

B/c I work in the 4th Dimension http://www.theonion.com/articles/struggling-americans-forced-to-work-e xtradimension,2592/

WarIs2Important2BLeft2PoliticiansTheyHaveNeitherTheTimeTheTrainingNorTheInclination4StrategicThought

[–] FullyOperationalSamaritan 10 years ago

hahaha good one.

[–] tehfynx 10 years ago

I'm not sure if you're actually serious on this matter. First of all, good luck spending more energy harvesting oxygen from oxides than you're getting from burning hydrogen with it. Second of all, you're about to get educated.

Let me explain more clearly, using solar system (a *beep* example for universe, but since you insisted on using examples only inside solar system, I'll go with it) as example. The solar system's mass is 1.0014 solar masses. Now what kind of unit is solar masses? It is the weight of the Sun. That makes Sun about 99.86% of our solar system. Here, since you seem to like linking random pages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_mass

Now, from that we can already see how dumb you are, but since you insisted on writing an essay, I am only obliged to do the same. Since you insist that Jupiter is good comparison to the Sun, I might as well pitch in on that theory. Jupiter's mass is 1.8986*10^27 kg. Since Jupiter's composition is (I'm not gonna use subjective buzzwords like you do, and instead use actual numbers, forgive me) 90%+/-2%, I'm gonna give you the leeway and use 92%. That makes the mass of hydrogen in Jupiter about 1.746712*10^27 kg. Now that seems impressive, doesn't it? Not exactly. The mass of Sun is 1.9891*10^30 kg, which is only about 1047 times bigger than your pesky planet. Since the composition of Sun is only 73.46%, I'm gonna give you even bigger leeway and assume it's 70%. Alright, now that makes the hydrogen mass of Sun amount to 1.39237*10^30 kg, which is quite low compared to your "mostly hydrogen" "massive planet", right? It's so low it's only about 797 times that of your little speck. And that's me being generous and giving you leeway.

Okay, I guess everyone understood just how bad at astronomy you are. But just for that winning stretch, shall we? Since I'm too busy to do proper research on oxygen abundance in our solar system, I'm just gonna handwave a tiny bit on this part. I'm gonna assume that the follow chart: ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Masses_of_terrestrial_planets.png is correct and instead of checking terrestrial planets of solar system and overall everything leftover in solar system, I'm just gonna handwave and assume it to be same composition as two and a half of Earth's (which is wildly incorrect, don't do this and do proper research which I didn't) which would net us about 4.4791425*10^24 kg of oxygen, compared to that of oxygen in the Sun (1.531607*10^28 kg) it turns out that Sun has about 3400 more oxygen.

Obligatory sentence to crush your dream theory about black holes for star harvesting: You've created a black hole that destroyed the star, how exactly do you plan to recover what you've "harvested" from a black hole now?

And we are able to manufacture our own elements, but it is not exactly efficient. A good analogy would be using MOAB to kill a mocking bird. Let's not talk about fusion as I'm not exactly familiar with the subject and most I can do is handwave few terms around.

[–] intotrance 10 years ago

I only understood about 10% of your post, but I like your style.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

There was nothing complicated in his post. What didn't you understand?

WarIs2Important2BLeft2PoliticiansTheyHaveNeitherTheTimeTheTrainingNorTheInclination4StrategicThought

[–] intotrance 10 years ago

There was nothing complicated in his post. What didn't you understand?

Because I wouldn't claim to come even remotely close to understanding different disciplines in science or schools of thought that are almost entirely foreign to me and the education I've received.

Something tells me that that that kind of claim isn't beyond you though.

[–] tehfynx 10 years ago

It's really only aggregated explanation about comparison of abundance of elements in solar system, I believe you can find way more accurate and less asinine articles about it, but I felt like writing a few blocks of it by myself, just to check how *beep* of a blogger I could be. Didn't turn out as bad as expected, I'll give myself that. Bonus points if you can pinpoint which lawyer character I was aiming for in the writing style!

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

I see this post of yours is tied to your ego, and hence all the personal jabs. Nonetheless, I will reply.

I don't know where I insisted upon using the Solar System? Nor was I comparing Jupiter to Sol. I was illustrating how much Hydrogen there is in the Solar System among the Jovian planets. There has been much speculation about harvesting the Hydrogen in Jupiter.

I really don't see how you 'educated' me in your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs; you were contending points which I did not address. When did I 'insist' that Jupiter was a good comparison to the Sol? If you think my post was an essay you should ask intotrance, he will tell you it was one of the short ones.

Regarding Harvesting Stars with Blackholes. There would exist a considerable distance between the Star and the Black Hole. Over the course of this distance, material could be intercepted. It is a highly wasteful and inefficient method, yet, for a Space Civilization it may be practical, and useful in creating Garrison Systems and vast empty zones, void of resources as a buffer between Galactic Powers. Check out my Thread 'A Discussion of Space Colonization' http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1731141/board/thread/225532501 post 'Civilization'.

I would think that we should be able to yet as far as I know, we, supposedly, cannot yet manufacture the elements, excluding the examples I gave above and Antihydrogen.

Your reply, despite the personal attacks is by far the most intelligent I have come across here on IMDB. I hope we can have civil discussions in the future, without the personal attacks.

WarIs2Important2BLeft2PoliticiansTheyHaveNeitherTheTimeTheTrainingNorTheInclination4StrategicThought

[–] tehfynx 10 years ago

While your first sentence is a bit ironic, I'll elaborate on my part. Insults merely to establish whether you're thin skinned or not, much easier to dismiss any arguments on internet when you establish if the other person is over sensitive or willing to learn. Insisted for the lack of better word was used to further expand on the point where you compare Jovian planets (more namely Jupiter) to stars of systems they belong in, since you used only planets in Solar system I allowed myself to assume that you were comparing the planets of the system to star of the system (rather baseless assumption in normal debate, but commonly correct one in terms of internet arguments). Now that you further elaborated on your point, I understand what you mean, but it really does not matter in terms of overall abundance of elements in universe, if you consider the average distance between planets that contain great amounts of hydrogen and weight it against the same of stars. Overall the debate of what would be more energy efficient; separating oxygen from various oxides from planets or seeking out planets/planetoids/satelites with water would be interesting, because overall hydrogen is the minor problem, oxygen is the main factor.

Your point about black holes might be viable, however I'm not versed in astrophysics enough to even grasp the basic principles of black stars to discuss such topic (no one on this board is, really).

And yes, we're able to achieve fusion, but the hard part is making it energy efficient and sustainable.

Concerning your compliment on intelligence on the closing line and second post: in regione caecorum rex est luscus. I do not invest much time on this website, as I only started watching movies as a hobby recently and don't have much time to invest in such hobby overall, never did I notice that ratings are private by default as well, strange choice on the creators part.

P.S.: If you're actually interested in astronomy and astrophysics, seek Randall Munroe's creativity. He has quite a few mediums through which he asks and answers rather strange questions, through the use of current knowledge.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

As this was the most intelligent reply I have come across, I checked out your profile and was disappointed, pretty empty. I was hoping to see what movies you liked.

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[–] janne-nordstrom 10 years ago

No one knew why they came. No one had ever even seen a queen, much less talked to one, and the only contact was when Formics were near the Earth. It was just a guess from Rackham.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] smifsret82 10 years ago

They never got a chance to, our military took the "shoot first ask questions later" approach...

This is wrong, it's not made clear by the movie but the Formics make their presence known to other queens by killing a few mindless drones as they enter their territory, by killing a few humans they were in fact greeting the human species.

They were horrified when they learned that each human is an equivalent to a queen but by then the war had really started and they still couldn't communicate.

The humans were defending themselves, not "shooting first".

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] lokis_angels 10 years ago

Seems to me you are answering this quite neetly.

Formics tell humans "we're here!" in the way they always bring such message. They weren't doing anything wrong in their opinion.

Humans defended themselves, or were shooting mindlesly, whatever you call it as an reaction to an alien race killing humans. That too, was done in their good rights from their point of view.

Not only the Formics should have tried harder to communicate, the humans should too. In communication there is 2 parties sending and receiving messages.

This doesn't work out because the races are so different. Formic Queens "think" what they want to happen to the drones her swarm is made of. A drone, though being a single body, is not an individual. It doesn't think, dream, decide for itself. Because it is all in thinking, the Formics haven't formed the ability of speach. Every human on the other hand, knows, sees, communicates to any other human, through speach.

Now, one thing I believe you see wrong, is that human did defend already, but they did so by attacking, not giving a chance to communication or even attempting to communicate.

[–] intotrance 10 years ago

Formics tell humans "we're here!" in the way they always bring such message. They weren't doing anything wrong in their opinion.

This cultural relatvism is the foundation for the entire human vs. Formic story. It's a shame that so many people seem to have completely missed it.

[–] dw_316 10 years ago

I thought they wanted to colonize Earth for water but when humans defeated and drove them away, they stayed away for 50 years? Thought the film was making it that the insects were only defending themselves while the humans were on the hunt to destroy their home planet. Sure, they made a play for the resource but they lost and withdrew and remained far away for so many years, and that it was the human aggression to attack their home world that they put up arms to defend it. I'd think anyone would fight for their own home to protect it. It poses that question that has existed for a long long time now, whether it is right to annihilate another people or species if they are no longer aggressive after suffering a defeat.

[–] JeopardyLeyton 10 years ago

It poses that question that has existed for a long long time now, whether it is right to annihilate another people or species if they are no longer aggressive after suffering a defeat.

When has that question ever existed in the sense that it has been difficult to answer?! Obviously the answer is no! Who would think that was ok?!!

[–] ricksonrgg 9 years ago

when doing so would stop future greater suffering, or if it is truly believed that the other side is evil by nature. after world war one and Germany having been so heavily defeated no one believed they would ever rise again. then world war II happened. I am not saying Germans should have been slaughtered after being defeated, but i think you can understand how such thinking can come about. An even greater example, during world war II Japanese living on the pacific islands were taught that Americans were evil demons that would come to destroy them in ways no one can imagine even destroying their souls, so when America started occupying Japanese islands the citizens killed their children by throwing them off cliffs, followed by themselves. It was seen safer then to be taken by the American demons. if they were willing to kill themselves you can only imagine how willing they would be to kill any Americans they got their hands on if they got the chance. Also the person you replied to said "another people or species", I think we can say mosquitoes and cockroaches were defeated before they began. I don't see anyone objecting to an entire industry dedicated to eradicating them.

[–] jim2000-1 10 years ago

in the book the formics were colonizing and had no problem with destroying or killing any species that they did not consider sentient, and since they communicate telepathically and could not do so with humans they did not consider us sentient beings , once they learned that we were sentient and just communicate differently they stopped trying to kill us but it was too late we were defending ourselves against a hostile species who attacked us for no apparent reason, it was not for water like in the movie. humans tried to communicate with them but the never responded since they had no way of speaking, and it wasn't even widely known that they only spoke telepathically it was only after the war and they were destroyed had all of this become common knowledge, after Ender wrote his book.
Guns don't kill people, Joss Whedon kills people!

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

Thanks for bringing up this good point Jim.... How many species HAVE the Formic's exterminated (genocide) b/c they weren't telepathic? The Formics just keep getting more and more violent.

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[–] CazRaX 10 years ago

Humans would do the same to any species who communicated telepathically. We are no different and hell we actually did destroy them all (even knowing they are sentient) while they stopped once they found out their mistake.

[–] TreeHuggerKyle 10 years ago

Actually, we already have no problem doing that to any non-human species right here on Earth. We don't think anything of taking resources from any other species. Or even undeveloped cultures in our own species.

[–] au-mclaughlin 10 years ago

Wrong. They shot first

[–] Starwarsfan777 10 years ago

You're kidding? They invaded Earth to steal resources and when they were repelled, they were "defending themselves"? So if someone breaks in to your house, steals a drink from your fridge, they would be peaceful and just be defending themselves if you tried to get them to leave. For that matter, why didn't they just leave when they couldn't get what they wanted? Why deploy your entire invasion fleet? Why send an invasion fleet instead of a scout? They knew what they were doing.

Wiping them out was the most logical course of action, Ender turned in to a big baby at the end. If he knew one of the "tens of millions" murdered by the aliens he would be singing a different tune.

[–] CigarDoug 8 years ago

So if someone breaks in to your house, steals a drink from your fridge, they would be peaceful and just be defending themselves if you tried to get them to leave.

Quite a few people in the United States have that exact mentality about illegal aliens breaking into this country. Somehow it is morally wrong to prevent them from coming in or taking any steps to remove those already here. We also have to suffer through admonishment from the Mexican President when Mexico has a MUCH harsher policy for illegals coming through THEIR southern border.

[–] fliboy486 9 years ago

I take my advanced armada when fetching water too.

[–] luchod-819-75242 9 years ago

Define "advanced", because we are very efficient harvesting resources on our own planet and we dont think for a second other species or races deserve them too.

Just 300 years ago, did indians attacked us first? or maybe right now: are dolphins and whales a threat to humankind that japan and other countries in the world must hunt and kill them? Do we really need to wear clothes made of fur and the skin from animals instead of cotton?

So.. do they really need our water? probably not.. but we do the same to all the billions of species in this planet, so why are we special?

[–] Royalcourtier 9 years ago

The plot was written by Americans. You people are good at finding enemies wherever you look for them, and even at turning allies into enemies. No wonder you are hated worldwide. With that background no wonder the Formics were in fear of genocidal Americans. I have always thought that if you had not provoked war with Japan the USA would have been happy to remain a de facto ally of Nazi Germany indefinitely. Nazism, aggression and militarism suits the American psyche.

[–] calz-ere 9 years ago

exactly

[–] syousefnia 8 years ago

Totally agreed and the interesting thing is we still see the same reaction from people here in this thread.

[–] syousefnia 8 years ago

Totally agreed and the interesting thing is we still see the same reaction from people here in this thread.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

Ender wasn't so much a fool as he was being manipulated by the telepathic Queen. Check out my thread 'The Misperceived Outcome (SPOILERS)'.

[–] hppg 10 years ago

Was he actually, or did you just make that up?

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

You my want to hold back on reading through that Thread, I am working on a more concise post that will provide new and convincing evidence and references to movie scenes than that which is currently posted. Maybe a day or two, I'm in the editing stage.

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[–] trypt 10 years ago

Yeah, genocide is so great... Indeed..

But in any case, Ender did say he was BORN TO DO THIS, he just didn't know what that meant at the time. The intelligent species that the humans wiped out knew that it was coming, and they STILL did not attack, when they could easily have wiped us out. They are so morally superior that they invited total annihilation just so they wouldn't have to destroy humanity, all in the hope that the message to a special someone, that one in a billion that humans are able to produce throughout history (The Teslas and the Isaacs and the Da Vincis and Buddha, true genius that is so very rare and is the only reason humanity has any redeeming qualities, since as a whole we're nothing more than monsters, as individuals we're beautiful and exotic) would get through.

Try to come up with an analogy in history, and you will find NONE, we don't have the capacity for that kind of good.

"You were assimilated, resistance was futile!"

[–] Felix-Mendelssohn 10 years ago

They are so morally superior that they invited total annihilation just so they wouldn't have to destroy humanity

Do you mean to be verbally ironic? I can see what you're saying if you are or not. Taken literally, it might make them morally superior to lay down their necks for the sake of not attacking. But then again, is is moral to allow the genocide of a race? Your own race, no less? When you have the power to eliminate a morally inferior aggressor?

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

Going along with Felix-Mendelssohn's point, it is not morally superior to enable an inferior and violent species to 1) kill another planet full of beings 2) one's own species. Further, such action is likely to result in numerous other species being wiped out by such a violent species. Violence is not immoral. As I have argued here, it can be very moral. Before you reply, and say I don't know what I am talking about, I ask you, suppose you went back in time and had an option, a single option, either to kill or not to kill Hitler. Would you consider it morally superior to not kill Hitler, so as not to have to engage in violence? The Formics could have defended themselves without destroying Humanity. Also, I have a movie suggestion for you regarding this very aspect, its pretty good, Unthinkable. Check it out. If you were to put yourself in their position, or as a person in one of the cities you would likely find your morality shifting dramatically through out the movie.

Which Isaacs are you referring to? As for DaVinci, he designed weapons. Buddha, ya Buddha is a redeeming example like Santa Claus and Jesus are.

The reason we don't is that such short sighted morality is quickly killed off in the struggle of survival.

Boards profile has been updated

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

Consider above post(s) subsequent to thomas998 post starting 'You mention water...'. Also consider that if it was water they were after why didn't this supposedly peaceful species simply manufacture. Water is composed of Hydrogen (most abundant element in the universe) and Oxygen (the 3rd most abundant element in the Universe). In about a year you will be able to buy a Hydrogen Fuel cell (Hydrogen Car) that produces water as its by-product. Further, the Space Shuttle's plume is 97% water. Are they too lazy to make their own water? Not very peaceful.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

could have gone peacefully

There is no evidence of that.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

With the correct exchange of words, it could have gone peacefully.

The meaning of this sentence is that, with the correct exchange of words it could have, there was a chance, that it could have gone peacefully. My point was that there is no evidence that there was ANY chance that it could have gone peacefully.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

What are you talking about, they killed tens of millions.

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[–] modman-2 10 years ago

no. even the movie managed to get that theme from the books across. here's some evidence that there was "ANY chance that it could have gone peacefully:"

1- they never showed any aggression after being defeated the first time
2 - they did not attack the fleet until the fleet attacked them
3- the dream/video game sequences heavily hinted at an attempt to communicate with Ender throughout the game. think "i don't know how those images got in there"

Ender is going to be tortured by his guilt for not figuring that out sooner. in the books, posterity actually condemns Ender for what he did...even though he had no idea he was doing it. or at least not consciously.

that's one of the best themes from the book, and is actually a recurring theme throughout the whole series. the second war was absolutely unnecessary as the first one was an issue of communication.

in the book you get the sense that Ender knew, on some level, all along the simulations at command school weren't simulations. he just never let himself admit it.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

#1 addresses a point incorrectly, it addresses post invasion, while we were discussing the invasion. Further, perhaps they were simply rebuilding their fleet or colonizing systems around Earth before attacking again. That 50 years passed means nothing.
#2 I believe that is a more complicated situation which I will address more fully in a another thread to be posted at a later time. Again, you are addresses post invasion while we were addressing invasion.
#3 It shows the manipulation of Ender. It programs him where to go AFTER he destroys the colony planet (as I said more complicated) it does not make any attempt at communicating peace.

This is the Internet MOVIE Database. Not the Book Database. The Studio bought the rights to Ender's game and studios frequently take movies in different directions, as they are trying to sell their product to a larger audience.

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[–] modman-2 10 years ago

nobody else was able to reason with you, not sure why i thought i would fare any differently.

[–] au-mclaughlin 10 years ago

You sir are wrong on every point. They literally gave us the technology we used to wipe them out. When we first used the DR. device in combat they immediately would have recognized as weaponized bastardization of the same tech they used to travel at almost lightspeed. they could have then turned it against us at any time.

The egg actually was left in a construct built to resemble the fairyland of the mind game. this was built by the Formics on what would later become Shakespeare colony. The very colony Ender would later govern.

The Formics intentionally gathered all of their queens into one easy to destroy place because they knew their actions had unknowingly set off an "us or them" situation. They let us win. They made us earn it every step of the way, and they kept trying to find a way to communicate with a species that they barely considered sentient. Granted, later they reveal that they were also trying to forcibly stop Ender from finishing them off. Still, when it came down to it, they chose us over themselves.

While this May be the International MOVIE data base, the source material always out ways any derivative works in terms canon. In case of discrepancies, defer to the source material.

[–] intotrance 10 years ago

The Formics intentionally gathered all of their queens into one easy to destroy place because they knew their actions had unknowingly set off an "us or them" situation. They let us win. They made us earn it every step of the way, and they kept trying to find a way to communicate with a species that they barely considered sentient. Granted, later they reveal that they were also trying to forcibly stop Ender from finishing them off. Still, when it came down to it, they chose us over themselves.

I don't think this is an accurate representation of what happened. If it were, there would have been no resistance as the fleet attacked other colonies. There'd have been no shots fired from the Formics at all. They defended themselves, they didn't aggregate en masse in order to sacrifice themselves.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

Why did they build it to resemble Fairyland?

Why did they sacrifice themsevles?

They must not have tried very hard to find ways to communicate.

How were they trying to forcibly stop Ender?

They choose us over themselves?

'source material always out *weighs

I am not speaking in terms of cannon, I am speaking upon a individual work, which defers from the books. It is right and proper to treat it as a separate work, for it so it is.

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[–] intotrance 10 years ago

Why did they build it to resemble Fairyland?

"Fairyland" was the mental environment created by the Queen's interaction with Ender via the computer software used to "know and predict" Ender's thoughts and feelings. They knew Ender would remember it, so they built their last hope to resemble that and draw him towards the final egg.

Why did they sacrifice themsevles?

They didn't.

They must not have tried very hard to find ways to communicate.

They tried the only ways they knew how.

How were they trying to forcibly stop Ender?

They defended themselves at every turn, but were no longer aggressors.

They choose us over themselves?

No.

'source material always out *weighs

I am not speaking in terms of cannon, I am speaking upon a individual work, which defers from the books. It is right and proper to treat it as a separate work, for it so it is.

You can't take a movie that is based off of a book as a completely independent work. Why are you deliberately and purposefully trying to disassociate the two? If there is pre-established canon in the source material, that is always what one should reference if they have story related questions that cannot be answered by the movie; it's the predecessor, it's the foundation, it's the inspiration.

Just because a movie fails to go into every detail doesn't mean that it has failed to tell the story, the way it was meant to be told. And, it certainly doesn't give credit to the most bizarre and absurd conclusions that you and a few others seem to be convinced of and continue to maintain.

Again, book and movie are inseperable because movie is sourced from book.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

In the book, did they use an image of his sister in the game, at Fairyland? When did they build Fairyland? Right after the game, or later on?

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[–] intotrance 10 years ago

Read it.

[–] Foothead 10 years ago

Why should he bother reading it? I'm enjoying his psycho-babble. Reading the book would only fill in the blanks and destroy his conspiracy theories.

[–] reaseltbim 10 years ago

they came in war ships,
killed a bunch of people,
and wanted to Steal our water, You know, the water that YOU and ME need to survive?

Yet humans were the bad guys... right. Here on Earth we kill each other for less than that. anyone attacks us we go after them, That's the way things are. You don't need alien creatures coming from space, That same thing is done here with other humans. You get attacked, It doesn't matter if you feel bad about it later, You will have to answer for it.

I find it funny that people are feeling bad about a CGI civilization of ant like aliens that were killed off in a movie,
yet right now people are fighting on earth in real life but no one here could care less.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] Lord-Bigglesworth 10 years ago

Especially the bug queen. I would go after them Starship Troopers style.

You mean commit genocide on a dumb species of insects (that possesses absolutely no technological capabilities whatsoever )because the media told you that they were responsible for sending an asteroid to earth?

Starship Troopers... the dumbest smart movie ever.

You'd feel cocky too if you were full of myself.

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

Genocide has a bad rap, but I think it will be the SOP during Space Colonization.

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[–] TVholic 10 years ago

It's funny that you should mention Babylon 5. Don't you remember what started the Earth-Minbari War?

[–] cirobolzani 10 years ago

(Old Spoilers) True, it was miscommunication and Delenn's hatred over Dukhat's death.

I was never one to hold grudges Jeffrey. My father held grudges, I'll always hate him for that.

[–] phixzet 10 years ago

Some good discussions here but in the end I think the bugs had it coming.

1) If they respected other sentient beings, then I dunno, the second they start seeing space ships defending earth (or satellites or radio communications, or large metropolitan areas), they'd probably figure out pretty quickly that we weren't plants.

2) Since they are obviously intelligent enough for space travel, they'd probably get that as Earth has plenty of water that our life cycle has evolved to be highly dependent on it. Maybe us sentient beings wouldn't be too happy even if they came light years to steal our water.

3) The invasion wasn't exactly an "oops, my bad". 10 million people died, and their technology at the time had us on the run.

It is still possible they weren't a future threat to us, in that they got their butts kicked and figured asking for a repeat wasn't a good idea. One battle may have been enough to end the war.

But when it comes to survival of our species and of our planet, I gotta agree with the military option. You don't just hope for the best. We wouldn't have that luxury.

[–] scottarnold 10 years ago

It seems pretty clear that a lack of understanding and communication played a significant role in the first war. 50 years later the Formic are building up their military but we don't know why. The story makes the decision on what to do somewhat morally ambiguous. But personally, I think there was more reason not to attack.

In 1995 the US was confident in it's military might. It had been 50 years since Germany had invaded the rest of the world. Should the US have gone back in and wiped them out?

Not a perfect analogy, but maybe enough to give anyone pause before jumping on the wipe-them-out bandwagon.

[–] intotrance 10 years ago

In 1995 the US was confident in it's military might. It had been 50 years since Germany had invaded the rest of the world. Should the US have gone back in and wiped them out?

It's a good analogy in that it gets the potential defender-turned-aggressor right with the current state of US and Germany, but there is a vital, fundamental piece missing from it: time & distance.

In Ender's Game, humanity launched their fleet as soon as it was ready and it travelled at near FTL speeds to get to the Formic colonies and homeworld. The distance + time adds the "actions of the past necessitate the choice of the present" element that a contemporary, 1995 military, political example would not have.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] intotrance 10 years ago

then you build a much larger fleet with a lot more mini death stars and only then do you attack

Right! Exactly! All those Death Stars in Ender's universe!

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

It is traditionally accepted that an attacking force should have 3:1 superiority.

WarIs2Important2BLeft2PoliticiansTheyHaveNeitherTheTimeTheTrainingNorTheInclination4StrategicThought

[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

A very poor analogy. Besides the point that it was the USSR that defeated the Wehrmacht, the Allies did defeat Germany, they accepted their unconditional surrender.

How is it pretty clear, in the movie, that it was a lack of understanding?

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[–] OutwardExpansion 10 years ago

I completely agree, I further expound on the points you have provided in my thread 'Peaceful? Says Who? part of Mispercieved Outcome Redux SPOLIERS' http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1731141/board/thread/226022407

It is hard to imagine anything but either out right war or a Cold War, where each side builds up their forces and attempts to 'box' in the other civilization (as in the game GO) by out flanking them by colonizing more systems further out and hence, in the future being in a position to come back and consolidate their Empire. Conquering the System they colonized around.

WarIs2Important2BLeft2PoliticiansTheyHaveNeitherTheTimeTheTrainingNorTheInclination4StrategicThought

[–] GSmith9072 10 years ago

For me, Ender was a fool in the end. I love all life, but i hate bugs and insects so much. I tolerate their existence because they are important to the environment and all but if alien invaders tried to destroy earth and looked like that they would get no love or pity from me. Especially the bug queen. I would go after them Starship Troopers style.

My favorite parts of Starship Troopers is when the people like you get sliced and diced by the adorable bug aliens.

BUGS