The Humanoid Cylon?


I wonder if the Humanoid Cylon was the model for the beginning works of the Number 6 model since I know that Tricia Helfer lend her voice which was cool.

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I think that was the idea. Glad they didn't sledgehammer the point by using her image; the voice was enough to get the audience to feel the genesis of Six in there somewhere...

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The point where 'it' snaps someones neck certainly does the trick.

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As well as its first line being "Are you alive?" just like in the miniseries.

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And the whole thing is a Continuity goof to do so because the Final Five designed the Skinjob models, gave them their personalities etc... And they had not shown up yet.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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Which doesn't preclude they recycled a voiceprint for the Sixes.

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That would explain the sound of the voice, but not the actions and personality clearly meant to be "Six".

The "Are you Alive" and snapping the neck.

No... It is a continuity error. The Cylon was clearly meant to be a early Model "Six" even though the Six's nor any other the others Model number Skinjobs were create until the Final Five showed up and did so.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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Wrong.

Even if the 5 did supply her image

( which is the only thing the F5 comic attributes to them )

and even her flesh and blood body,

her programming, voice, AI, and everything else could have already been in place.

President of the BSG Boards

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which is the only thing the F5 comic attributes to them


Well it's a good thing we have a lot more to go on than that which is canon in the series itself so we don't have to rely upon non-canon comics now isn't it?
The F5 created them PERIOD. not just the skinjob bodies, but their personalities... everything about them.
It is stated as such right within the show itself, not some damned comic.


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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Wrong again.

1 ) The comic IS canon.

and

2 ) The show does NOT state that.

Nice try, though.

President of the BSG Boards

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Clearly the comic is NOT canon since it (a) it's a comic and (b) doesn't fit with what was on the air. (Plus, it's horribly written.)

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PresidentBaltar may be a common poster and popular on this board, does not alter the fact that most of his postings are trollish. He always goes on the attack to anyone not a common (daily) poster that has an idea other than his.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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I only correct people who are clearly wrong.

Which you often are.

Troll.

President of the BSG Boards

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1 ) The comic IS canon.
Anything in TV Show = canon.
Anything NOT TV show = NOT canon.
Comic thus is NOT canon.


and
2 ) The show does NOT state that.


Brother Cavil: In all your travels, have you ever seen a star go supernova?

Ellen Tigh: No.

Brother Cavil: No? Well, I have. I saw a star explode and send out the building blocks of the Universe. Other stars, other planets and eventually other life. A supernova! Creation itself! I was there. I wanted to see it and be part of the moment. And you know how I perceived one of the most glorious events in the universe? With these ridiculous gelatinous orbs in my skull! With eyes designed to perceive only a tiny fraction of the EM spectrum. With ears designed only to hear vibrations in the air.

Ellen Tigh: The five of us designed you to be as human as possible.

Brother Cavil: I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays! I want to hear X-rays! And I want to - I want to smell dark matter! Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can't even express these things properly because I have to - I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid limiting spoken language! But I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws! And feel the wind of a supernova flowing over me! I'm a machine! And I can know much more! I can experience so much more. But I'm trapped in this absurd body! And why? Because my five creators thought that God wanted it that way!


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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Everything you posted supports the fact that the 5 designed their physical bodies ONLY.

It does not state who designed their AI, personalities, programming, voices, ect.

President of the BSG Boards

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There is plenty to show that they did much more than just the bodies. Rewatch Season four Episode 16, No Exit, again.


Ellen: Do you still suffer from night sweats and scary dreams of dog-faced boys chasing your through the yellow mists?

Cavil: Sleep. It's a good example of an extremely unproductive human attribute that for some reason you chose to write into our software.
Fortunately I was able to delete that particular subroutine, and I stopped sleeping about 20 years ago.

Ellen: Fine! if you really think we poisoned you and your siblings with human traits like sleep and Centurion values like belief in a living God, Why then did you spend all these years in single minded pursuit of such human ideas as vengeance and murder? Why not just explore this notion of being the best machines the universe has ever known?

And moments later as Cavil is talking to an Eight (Boomer) in front of Ellen...

Cavil(to Boomer): No,no,no. You should stay. Stay and have a heart to heart with your creator here. You can ask her why she made you the way you are. Self destructive, Hyper-emotional, Torn apart by conflicting impulses. Tell her how extraordinarily happy this makes you.

Clearly just a tad more than just designing the physical body. those are all personality traits.
But of course you the great PresidentBaltar cannot admit you are wrong and will continue to attack me like the troll you are.



I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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Want more?


Anders revealing to the others what they did when they came to the colonies from their "Earth" and finding the Humans already at war with their own Cylon Centurions...

Anders: The Centurions were already trying {emphasis mine} to make flesh bodies. They had created the Hybrids, but nothing that lived on it's own. So we made them a deal. You stop the war and we'll help you. We developed the eight humanoid models and we gave them resurrection.

Kara: Eight? You said eight. We're missing someone.

Anders: Woah, oh wow. Everybody's glowing.
Anders goes into seizure.


And later, back to Cavil, Boomer, and Ellen....

Boomer: Don't you feel the slightest bit of remorse for what you did to him? What you did to us?

Ellen: No. Because he's wrong, Boomer. There's no need for remorse or blame. We didn't limit you. We gave you something wonderful. Free Will. The ability to think creatively, to reach out to others with compassion. To love.

Boomer: Love? Who? Humans? Why would I want to do that? Who would I want to love?


Again they are talking about much more than just the Bodies... They are talking about creating their personality, their cognitive thinking abilities and personalities.

PresidentTrolltar... You. Are. Wrong.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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The show does NOT state that.

The show absolutely says that. You are simply mistaken.

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[deleted]

Despite President Trolltar's claim, I have already demonstrated that the 8 Skinjobs were COMPLETELY created by the five, NOT JUST the body as Trolltar claims. Voice, Mannerisms, body, the works.

So just HOW was it to be around BEFORE it was created? Explain.


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[deleted]

The "Creators" of the series are able to make mistakes.

Otherwise there would be no goofs in any film or TV series. Ever. Now wouldn't there?

Just because the series creator made it that way does not prevent it from being a mistake.
Your argument, fail.

What was in this show, contradicts what has already been established by the previous show. Hence it IS a mistake.


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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The Cylons were already trying to make humanoid models. They experimented with it, and partly succeeded. They managed to create the Hybrids. But they couldn't make them live independently from extra machinery and wiring attached to the bodies, so to speak. That's were the F5 came in. The F5 provided the technology to develop fully functional skinjobs, finished their design, and gave them resurrection technology.

IMO it was definitely an early prototype of Number Six, but without the required technology (later provided by the F5) to complete their design.

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IMO it was definitely an early prototype of Number Six


Yes, I agree that it was. Which is why it is a Mistake.
Because it should not have been.

The early experimentations by the Cylons (pre-F5) were more akin to grafting of human parts onto Cylons. More like a Cyborg than a skinjob.
But as shown by the quotes from BSG I showed above... the F5 created the 8 models COMPLETELY. Not simply added to what the Cylons already had. They gave them not just the bodies, but the personalities as well.

This is what's being ignored by the "it's not a mistake' crowd. This prototype "Six" already has the "Six" personality as evidenced by the mannerisms of the Prototype, (Are you alive?" etc..)

If it was just the body, I could agree, but it isn't
The Six personality is there even though the 5 created the personalities (not just gave them the bodies)


therefore "Six" exists in B&C before she was created by the 5.
Thus it's a Continuity mistake.


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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Wrong again, Completely Gay Sailor:

1 ) As several others here have pointed out, you haven't proven anything, you have only given YOUR opinion.

2 ) If proto-six was intentionally written in to the story, as canon, it automatically becomes official, and cannot not possibly be considered a mistake.

3 ) If YOUR opinion contradicts the officially written, canon story, guess what? YOU are the one who is wrong.



President of the BSG Boards

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Two things can be canon and contradictory thus a mistake.
Just because it is canon does not preclude it from being a mistake.

Not Opinion but FACT:
1) The Five created the 8 humanoid model. Not just the bodies, but the personalities as well. This IS CANON from the main Series.

2) A prototype "Six" complete with the "six" personality exists before the Five arrive and create the 8 humanoid models. This is CANON from BSG:Blood & Chrome



Both 1 and 2 are facts. Both are canon. Both contradict each other, thus it is a goof.

By your reasoning that it cannot be a goof because it is canon, then nothing can ever be a goof in any film. EVER. Because if the goof is in the film, then it is canon and thus not a goof. Faulty reasoning there bub.

The only opinion in this post is my opinion of you being a fraking troll.

The rest is fact.




Here ya go... from BSG itself... an actual goof...

Continuity: The colony called Sagittarion in the miniseries is called Sagittaron throughout the series.


So it is canon that the colony is called Sagittarion. This is canon establish during the miniseries.

It is called Sagittaron throughout the series and is also canon.

Both are canon, which is the mistake. trolltar? hmmm?



I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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I think CG makes a good point that BSG strongly implies that the 8 skinjob models had most/all of their personality as well as appearance created by the F5. I hope he's just trying to say "look, here's a continuity problem in the canon", introduced by the Blood & Chrome writers putting in this shoutout or callback or w/e it is to Six.

If you want to find a way for the canon to make sense, well you can imagine that when the final 5 came along, the cylons were already working on some stuff and had some voice synths already designed. Maybe even a few personality quirks. When the final 5 made the other models, maybe they started with some designs the cylons already had, instead of starting from scratch. This allows for basically anything you want from pre-f5 to make it into the models they built. There might be other ways to explain things, since this one kind of sucks, but w/e.


As far as stuff other than the TV episodes being canon or not, I think usually people go by Word of God (i.e. the creators of the show) whether other stories fit into the same canon or not. So if they say the comics are canon, then they are. If not, then not. IDK, haven't read them myself, didn't know they existed.

I enjoy BSG for the stories they were trying to tell, not for their attempts at fitting all the pieces together as they put in plot elements on the fly. It gave them a really good show, using their actors extremely well, since they could change the story on the fly when they saw something they liked in a performance, or in an actor's choice of how they played something. But they definitely put stuff in because it was cool at the expense of making it hard to make everything fit at the end.


Also remember, in BSG, being a Completely Gay Sailor is more than fine. Nobody cares if you're gay. IDK what kind of insult you think that is. It's like saying "ha, you left handed freak".

If someone just wants to trade personal insults instead of argue their case, just give up and move on. http://xkcd.com/386/. You can't really "win" a thread when it turns into accusations of trolling. If you've fully laid out your points, then anyone coming along reading what you say will probably understand. Trying to convince someone that dogmatically clings to their claims and ignores your points is a waste of time. If you can figure out what they might have missed, and be more clear or detailed, then great. If that still doesn't work, move on.

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The 8 models created by the F5 were an amalgam of their technology and the efforts of the mechanical Cylons in an effort to achieve evolution. The F5 convinced the mechanical Cylons to end the war by giving them resurrection technology and by creating the new 8 models, but in addition of their tech, they used building blocks from the mechanical Cylons (both from their programming and from the bio-mechanoids they were trying to create). This is canon per the TV show. They didn't create them from scratch (magically in their image in a vacuum), they copy/pasted some elements from the mechanical Cylons' own evolution - it makes sense, because it would aid in their work (they came from a destroyed world, they didn't have a lot of their own source materials), and because the mechanical Cylons wouldn't just allow them to write them out of the equation (they were using their resources, after all).

A prime example of this combination of tech (in the programming/personality) is the concept of a monotheist religion. As Ellen Tight says to Cavil in 4x15 No Exit:


Fine. If you really think we poisoned you and your siblings with human traits like sleep, and centurion values like belief in a living god, why then did you spend all these years in single-minded pursuit of such human ideas as vengeance and murder?


Regardless if the comics are canon, it helps to understand this when reading The Final 5 comic. In it, the F5 are atheists because the 13th tribe was atheist (since they had achieved immortality through resurrection, they didn't believe in the Gods of Kobol, which was the reason for them to leave). I don't remember if it is stated in the TV show that the 13th tribe was atheist, but per the dialog above, they only introduced the concept of a single God into the 8 new models because it came from the mechanical Cylons (which comes from the events in Caprica).

Both shows are littered with the gradual build-up of the programming and technology to make the Cylons sentient (to create a new sentient life form). It didn't happen overnight or by itself just because a couple programmers and bio-engineers sat down to create a new life form: they used plenty of building blocks of what came before them.

In fact, the first generation 13th tribe weren't an original life form per se. (per the comic) They were cylons because they had transcribed their neural pathways into artificial bodies, but their original programming (personality) came from actual humans (ie, it wasn't artificial programming, it was biological in origin). Even the second generation 13th tribe (the F5 being the only survivors) are only a result of the genetic pairings of the first generation (ie, their personalities remain biological in origin, not from programming). It took the creation of the 8 models for them to be completely artificial, and then it took the pairing of Helo and Athena to create a hybrid that would combine both biological and artificial offspring.

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I'm not really wanting to get mixed up in this. I must say BSG has lost a lot of its glamour to me, turning it in a soap, more or less. I am a bit weird though in having started a series I want to finish it too. And then I like to go to the boards.

I feel this theory is somewhat flawed because, everybody is making this the prototype of 6. No need for that. If one sentence and one action account for the personality of a person, then there are a whole lot of people the same.

To give an example on this: In the Predator original it is sad "you are one ugly motherfrakker"(I know, you'll understand), after that line the predator gets killed. That line is repeated in Predator II, wich has nobody from the original. In fact the sentence is ended by the predator, therefore Arnie from the original, Bruce from the second and the predator from the second are all the same?

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If one sentence and one action account for the personality of a person, then there are a whole lot of people the same.

To give an example on this: In the Predator original it is sad "you are one ugly motherfrakker"(I know, you'll understand), after that line the predator gets killed. That line is repeated in Predator II, wich has nobody from the original. In fact the sentence is ended by the predator, therefore Arnie from the original, Bruce from the second and the predator from the second are all the same?


Like with any rule or categorization of something.... You have to temper it with common sense or you'll wind up with an "Argumentum ad absurdum".


In your case, your "examples" are apples and oranges to this situation.

Another example in your way of thinking and to better illustrate the point I am going to make about your examples not being the same thing as the prototype six's saying....

The phrase, "I have a bad feeling about this." spoken by at least one character in each of the Star Wars franchise films.

The Star Wars example, along with your predator and Predator II examples are meant to be understood and enjoyed by the AUDIENCE from an "Outside the story perspective". They take the form of an homage to the earlier work (Predator films) or as a long running inside joke (Star Wars franchise). There is no "in universe" meaning to it, only to an outside perspective of the audience does it take on anything more than a simple line of dialog)

The case with this film however is different. The prototype is clearly meant to be a Prototype of the Sixes we see later(chronologically) in BSG. Not just the same words, but the same voice, same mannerisms/body language.

In the argument of this thread, BOTH SIDES agree that this is a prototype Six. You are the lone voice stating otherwise.

The Argument is not whether this is a Prototype Six or not. That is not in dispute (except by you). The argument is whether or not this being a prototype Six constitutes a Anachronism/Chronological Error goof.... or simply accepted as not a goof at all.





I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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Point well made. Thank you. And I apologize for the flawed example.

Maybe this has been adressed, but what if the final five went with what the Cylon had already?

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Maybe this has been adressed, but what if the final five went with what the Cylon had already?


You mean, what if the Five took the prototype the Cylons had already made and expanded upon them to create the ones we know from the main show?

Hmmm.... possible.
I have not seen that suggestion before but while a fan of the show, I don';t regularly hang out here so I could have missed it. It has never came back before in response to any of my postings on it before.

It's all supposition of course but I got no problem with supposition so long as a few rules are observed.

1) The Supposition must be necessary to explain a gap in the story or to explain away inconsistencies (goofs) in the story.

2) The supposition must be kept to the bare minimum necessary to meet rule 1 above. No extravagant theories, simple is better.

3) and most importantly, it must not contradict any facts of the show itself. While the supposition is not canon, it's fine so long as it's necessary, and does not violate canon itself.


Your idea does not violate any known facts of the show's universe that I can see offhand, so check on #3.

It's simple. So Check #2.

It explains away a goof/inconsistency in the film. hmm.... possible check on #1.

There are some "possible" snags.

It perfectly explains away the "Six vs Prototype Six" dilemma.
But then it begs the question, did they do that for the other models? ARE THERE other prototypes of the other skinjobs and not just Six? We never saw them but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. But that leads towards potentially violating rule 2. Keep it simple. It's having to add further layers of supposition to the idea. And if they were just improving upon all the prototypes for each of the models, then that kinda flies in the face of both Ellen's and Anders' revelations about WE made them, WE gave them their personalities, their flaws, etc...

Even if it does explain away the goof, it does not alter the fact that it was originally a goof in the first place to be explained away.


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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If what you say is to believed true (we made all the prototypes at once) than it is just a dumb show.

There is nobody, NOBODY, that makes several different models of a prototype. The idea of a prototype is to test whether an idea is possible, manageable. If they were advanced enough to create a technological lifeform in a biological body, sure they wouldn't build more then 1 prototype. If it proofed to be succesfull, surely they'd build other models, for various jobs. Something I never understood, btw, is why so many models. I don't believe they made the 7 models for infiltration purposes.

But, since you seem to be entitled to make the rules on supposition, I'd like to lay down the rules for movies about series about movies, canon or not.

1. If it feels like a goof or inconsistency, but there is no hard evidence on why or how, it is just to be taken for granted. The fact you (in general) can't get everybody to agree means you (in general) are wrong.

2. If a movie is not part of the series (B&C is before the series, where Razor is in the series) it is to be viewed on it's own. A voice, trademark trick or whatever is fun to be observed, but doesn't mean there is more to it.

3. If there is no explanation on how or why, but there is a significant time frame to be observed, then it is more than likely there is a perfectly logical solution. The fact you (in general) don't see it, doesn't mean there is a goof.

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Yes.

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