MovieChat Forums > Bully (2012) Discussion > This is a movie about a bunch of sissie...

This is a movie about a bunch of sissies.

posted 11 years ago by movieliker1
134 replies | jump to latest

The thousand pound elephant in the room is the fact that none of these victims ever stood up for themselves. Furthermore, none of the adults, parents included, ever told the victims to stand up to the bullies.

9 times out of 10 (if not more like 99 times out of 100) all it takes to stop a bully is for the victim to stand up and fight back. Even if they lose the fight, they gain the respect of others and themselves.

This seems like a movie about bad parenting. "Cry to the school, cry to the police and cry to the community. We need protection because we are too cowardly to "TRY" to take care of ourselves."

The lesson of this movie is, "Try and take care of yourself or --- get beat down every day and then eventually commit suicide."

[–] tommylee118 11 years ago

Watch the movie again. Your 1st two sentences are incorrect.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] dcflag_09 11 years ago

Um if you paid attention one girl did stand up for herself and got arrested and another boy did stand up, he said the bullying stopped but he felt bad.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] NTMuller-1 11 years ago

The problem with your solution is that the bullying behavior doesn't stop. The bully simply moves on to another victim until he/she finds one who won't fight back. The perpetrator needs to be confronted and stopped.

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

A child being bullied is indicative of a more serious problem.

A normal healthy child would either stand up to a bully or get help from friends. The child who has neither option has more serious problems.

The adults can use bullying to identify which kids are healthy and which ones are not. The ones who are not, need further attention. Why are they so lacking in self-esteem, confidence, courage and friends? That is the real issue.

I don't believe bullying is a serious problem because normal, healthy children can deal with it. I agree it should not be allowed to continue if a kid cannot stop being a victim. But it is the victim that needs attention. Not the bully.

[–] khinardin 11 years ago

Your posts smacks of someone who believes bullying is the fault of the victims rather than the perpetrators. Now I can see two possibles reasons for your posts here, either you are one of those who was/is a bully and therefore always see the victims as deserving of the bullying (you probably throw out such phrases as "they bring it upon themselves"), or you are trolling. More than likely both.

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

No, I was the one bullied. But I stood up to them and they stopped.

No, I think bullying is wrong. But until we die and go to heaven there will be evil for us to deal with.
There is a good side to bullying. It teaches kids how to take care of themselves. And, it can help adults identify those with more serious problems that lead to them not being able to take care of themselves.
I think bad parenting is a more serious problem for individuals and society than bullying is.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

That's like saying it's a good thing if someone's house was broken into and that person got killed because it showed that the security system they had was ineffective.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"That's like saying it's a good thing if someone's house was broken into and that person got killed because it showed that the security system they had was ineffective."

No, it's not the same thing. No one normally gets killed in a school bully situation. It is never a good thing when someone gets killed.

[–] vnse 11 years ago

Movieliker1,

I agree with you. This whole "crisis" is BS. In 7th grade I was one the uncool kids. I remember one particular incident, this "cool" kid made fun of my shoes. They weren't "cool" enough for his liking. So every day, shoe joke this shoe joke that. Until one day at lunch I went over to him grabbed his collar and said you make one ore joke about my shoes I'm going to beat the sh*t out of you.

He never spoke to me again and I never heard a word about my shoes again.

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

Thank you for agreeing with me "vnse". But I have to respectfully disagree with your statement, "This whole "crisis" is BS". Bullying is a big problem that can ruin lives even if no one gets killed. But stopping the bullying is not usually the solution. If a child cannot take care of themselves the cause usually leads to bad parenting. It is the parents' responsibility to prepare their children for the real world. And the real world has bullies.

[–] vnse 11 years ago

I guess I should have worded it better. Bullying is real. But my point is it has always been there. It's now a "crisis" because the busybodies of the world need a new cause and bullying is it.

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

Once again, I respectfully disagree with your statement, "It's now a "crisis" because the busybodies of the world need a new cause and bullying is it."

I think it is a real problem - a crisis - if you may. Many lives are ruined because some people cannot deal with bullying. I agree with you that it has always been there but now, because of the breakdown of the family, more children cannot deal with it. But, unlike the "busybodies' " focus, I think it is a reflection of bad parenting (specifically the victims' parents), not the existence of bullies. Because, like you say, they have always been there.

[–] doughgirlsass 11 years ago

I've never met a bully outside of school.

"In France, The Hunger Games is called Battle Royale With Cheese."

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

Well, believe me they exist. A bully doesn't stop being a bully when they leave school. And, some people use bullying as a tactic all their lives.

[–] HwajangshilAgashi 11 years ago

Then you've been lucky!
Every larger workplace has at least one bully. Though I guess adult bullies are not always identify as such, because they're not stuffing other people in lockers or physically beating them up.
Where I work there is one lady who is absolutely a bully. She is actually nice as a person most of the time, but the way she talks about people behind their back... Not only that, but those people who are below her in the hierarchy she will straight out bully by telling them that they are stupid and useless.

[–] rosemarykt 11 years ago

It's pretty pathetic that the only solution is to tell a kid he needs to engage in physical violence to solve his problem.

Seriously?

In the year 2013, that's the best we can do, eh?

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"It's pretty pathetic that the only solution is to tell a kid he needs to engage in physical violence to solve his problem."

"Seriously?"

Nobody said that was the "ONLY" solution.

[–] CodyKes8 10 years ago

What does the year have to do with anything? Do you think anyone alive today is as smart or as progressive as Shakespeare, Martin Luther King Jr, Jesus Christ or anyone of the like? "It's 2013..." So what? We live in a world of ignorance on all sides, and we have no progressive leaders bent on changing anything. If anything, saying it was 2013 was a negative statement.

[–] aasoloway 11 years ago

I kind of agree with you. Everyone gets bullied at some point. When you fight back - it stops.

Unfortunately kids can't fight back as they could in the past. They also have cyber bullying etc. Teachers can't discipline kids as they used to. So it isn't as easy anymore.

It's funny how one person expresses an opinion and half a dozen jump in to say they're wrong...

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"It's funny how one person expresses an opinion and half a dozen jump in to say they're wrong..."

Yes, isn't that funny? I think those people feel insulted by me calling them sissies. They feel they are unable to change the fact that they are victims or they feel there is nothing they can do if they are victimized.
I was bullied in school. If I fought back, it usually stopped. If the bully had numbers I just got my friends. If the bully was too big, this never happened but if it did I would just get my friends.
I had athletic ability, I had friends and the teachers liked me. I had a good family so I had a lot of support. I fear that a lot of these "disagree-ers" have other problems that complicate their situations - like no friends, no physical ability, bad families or paranoia. The paranoia being that they imagine the worse will occur if they try to stand up for themselves - like the bully being a sadistic sociopath that would only get more vicious, or the bully responding with a group of supporters or with weapons, etc. In other words, their biggest obstacle that prevents them from feeling secure is in their own minds.

[–] HwajangshilAgashi 11 years ago

You know, I actually agree with what you've stated in other posts, that people who let themselves be bullied have problems that need to be addressed. They're not "normal", or "healthy", and that is a big part of the problem. Most often they don't have friends, they may not be good at sports, and their family life may be fair from ideal as well, resulting in them not having the self confidence to stand up for themselves.

However, that doesn't make them "sissies", and calling them so is insulting.

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

“You know, I actually agree with what you've stated in other posts, that people who let themselves be bullied have problems that need to be addressed. They're not "normal", or "healthy", and that is a big part of the problem. Most often they don't have friends, they may not be good at sports, and their family life may be fair from ideal as well, resulting in them not having the self confidence to stand up for themselves.”

“However, that doesn't make them "sissies", and calling them so is insulting.”

I did not mean it in the insulting, offensive sense. I meant it in the descriptive, objective sense.

Regardless of the cause (parental neglect, lack of courage) it is comparatively sissified and cowardly for an otherwise capable child not to stand up to a bully when other kids do.

Furthermore, I am interested in what you think the difference is between a sissy and — a victim of a bully who refuses to stand up for themselves.

Last, but not least, I stated that I felt sorry for not only Alex — who was a complete victim, but the parents — who should have known better. (It was obvious to me that the parents had good intentions, just not the knowledge.) Just because I feel sympathy and empathy for someone doesn’t mean I can’t accurately describe and label the problem.

I was not communicating with the victim or the parents of the victim. In order for well intentioned people to successfully address a problem, they have to be frank — sometimes brutally frank.

[–] Tweck 11 years ago

None of what you said is true at all. You are blaming the victim just for being victimized. The only way a kid can "stop being a victim" is for people to stop VICTIMIZING them.

These are perfectly good kids who are being tormented by perfectly bad kids. It's the bad kids who need discipline. They should be expelled from school.

[–] ciocio-2 9 years ago

You don't believe bullying is a serious problem,

because normal, healthy children can deal with it.

Wow.

Then:

...it should not be allowed to continue if a kid cannot stop being a victim. But it is the victim that needs attention. Not the bully.

First, that's an interesting, revealing choice of phrasing you made there, in that the victim needs to STOP BEING; I believe that's what Tyler achieved, and I doubt that's really what you advocate. If one of the two parties, the bully or the bullied kid, is going to stop being, I'd rather it be the bully; stop being a bully. So, anyway, if a kid CAN somehow "stop being a victim," then the bullying should be allowed to continue? Cause that's what your post seems to advocate.

Of course, one would wish that any bullied kid would be able to confront his or her bullies (though that might well be a full-time job), and that that would always prove an effective cure for their situation (which, honestly, we know it wouldn't), and that everyone involved would come through the situation whole and healthy (also virtually impossible). But even if that all happened just right, it's still no substitute or replacement for the authorities and the system laying down the law, that bullying behavior of any kind is completely inappropriate and unacceptable, and will be dealt with VERY seriously. Let's face it, any kid that's bullying has some degree of problem, and should be HELPED to STOP. If it's not possible to lead them to stop, then they need to go somewhere away from potential victims. What creates a bully? How can a bully be uncreated?

Multiplex: 100+ shows a day, NONE worth watching. John Sayles' latest: NO distribution. SAD.

[–] movieliker1 9 years ago

Sorry but you are wrong. If your kid is a perpetual victim, something is wrong with your kid.

I am not saying that bullying is right. No, bullying is wrong. And something is wrong with any kid that needs to bully other smaller, weaker kids in order to make themselves feel good. But that is not your problem unless your kid is the bully. I your kid is the victim, your problem is your kid.

You need to ask yourself why is your kid the victim. Why is that bully not picking on other kids? It has nothing to do with physical size or prowess. It usually has to do with self-esteem and social skills. Self-esteem will manifest itself into courage and social skills will manifest into friends that will support and protect each other.

If that is the case with your child, you need to ask why your kid has no self-esteem and no social skills. In other words, why is your kid a miserable loner? Even if we had the ability to eliminate all bullies (which we don't), your kid would still have self-esteem and social problems that would manifest themselves in other ways. In other words, your kid would still have problems.

[–] misterplatypus 11 years ago

You are an idiot.

Bullies pick on kids who have problems, they don't pick on the kind of kid that can stand up for himself.

Being bullied doesn't build character, it destroys hope. Kids who are chronically bullied end up like Alex in the film: assuming it can't get better, so why fight it.

You need to have your ignorant ass kicked.

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"Bullies pick on kids who have problems, they don't pick on the kind of kid that can stand up for himself."

Wrong. Bullies pick on everybody, trying to see who will stand up for themselves and who won't. The ones who do, they respect and the ones who don't, they keep picking on until they decide to stand up for themselves.

"Being bullied doesn't build character, it destroys hope. Kids who are chronically bullied end up like Alex in the film: assuming it can't get better, so why fight it."

It built character for me and everyone else I saw stand up for themselves.

"You need to have your ignorant ass kicked."

You sound very angry. What is the problem? You were picked on in school and you didn't have the courage to stand up for yourself? Are you a sissy? You sound like one.

[–] doughgirlsass 11 years ago

You sound like a bully movieliker. The way you talk about bullies sounds like you admire them. Why the hell should I or anyone else have to fight to earn the respect of a bully? I don't want the respect of someone like that.

"In France, The Hunger Games is called Battle Royale With Cheese."

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

Whether or not you get their respect is not important. Whether or not you get them to stop bullying you is what is important.

[–] fire-baby 11 years ago

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"you get them to stop bullying you"... seems like treating the symptoms and not the disease... why not stop bullies from being such pathetic *beep* it's not the victim's fault you know, nor should it be their responsibility to stop someone else from bullying... stop yourself and *gasp* problem solved...

It is my opinion that the best way to stop bullies is to stand up to them. Children have to learn how to take care of themselves. That education will serve them for the rest of their life. There will not always be others to cry to when someone feels threatened.

[–] Tweck 11 years ago

You are such a liar. You probably were the bully; it's the only conclusion I can reach as to why you'd bully and victimize children who are ostracized and bullied.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

You're a total f_ucking moron.

It's more like 0.000000001 times out of 100. NOBODY will "gain the respect of others and themselves" for losing a fight. They will just get ridiculed further, in addition of course to phyical injuries.

And you obviously didn't see this movie, because if you did you would've seen that one of the victims pulled a gun on a bitch. Sure sounds like "standing up" to me.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"It's more like 0.000000001 times out of 100. NOBODY will "gain the respect of others and themselves" for losing a fight. They will just get ridiculed further, in addition of course to (physical) injuries."

Wrong. I didn't win every fight that resulted from me standing up for myself but I gained the respect of others for doing so. And, I saw other potential victims gain the respect of others for doing the same also.

"And you obviously didn't see this movie, because if you did you would've seen that one of the victims pulled a gun on a bitch. Sure sounds like "standing up" to me."

I saw the movie. There is a right way to stand up to a bully and there is a wrong way. Pulling a gun on a bus is the wrong way.

"You're a total f_ucking moron."

You sound very angry. What is the problem? You were picked on in school and you didn't have the courage to stand up for yourself? Are you a sissy? You sound like one.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"Wrong. I didn't win every fight that resulted from me standing up for myself but I gained the respect of others for doing so. And, I saw other potential victims gain the respect of others for doing the same also."

You're either really old or full of crap. That mentality DOES NOT exist today. Like I said, losing a fight only gets one ridiculed.

"I saw the movie. There is a right way to stand up to a bully and there is a wrong way. Pulling a gun on a bus is the wrong way."

And physically fighting is somehow more civilized?

"You sound very angry. What is the problem? You were picked on in school and you didn't have the courage to stand up for yourself? Are you a sissy? You sound like one."

It's hardly a matter of courage you dumbass. A scrawny 5'2" kid could have all the courage in the world, but they cannot take on a 6'+ football player. If someone like Alex had gotten himself into a real fight, he probably would have been beaten to near-death.

But thanks for reconfirming what a TOTAL F_UCKING MORON you are.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"You're either really old or full of crap. That mentality DOES NOT exist today. Like I said, losing a fight only gets one ridiculed."

I am 54 years old. I have nieces and nephews, and I have friends who have children in grammar school and high school. Some of my friends are black and their kids go to inner city public schools where children shoot each other with guns. It doesn't matter whether the children go to rich private suburban schools or poor inner city public schools. They all are taught to stand up to bullies because everybody knows that if you allow yourself to be a doormat others will stomp on you forever. There were even examples in the movie of kids who stood up to bullies and the bullies stopped picking on them. I don't know what world you live in but it is not the same world everyone else lives in.

"And physically fighting is somehow more civilized?"

It is more civilized than pulling a gun on children !!! Are you insane?

"It's hardly a matter of courage you dumbass. A scrawny 5'2" kid could have all the courage in the world, but they cannot take on a 6'+ football player. If someone like Alex had gotten himself into a real fight, he probably would have been beaten to near-death."

I am small. I always have been. I have beaten up people a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier than me many times. And, I have seen others do it too. The bigger combatant does not automatically win. If Alex doesn't know how to fight than he needs to learn. I have often seen kids get beaten up many times but they never backed down. They eventually learned how to fight. And, they never suffered serious permanent injury.

You sound like a coward. You are always making excuses for someone to not stand up for themselves. Life is full or risk. If you don't take any, you will never accomplish anything. Courage is the willingness to take risk.
If you know someone who is being bullied, adult or child, and they are afraid that they don't know how to defend themselves, tell them to do something about it. Tell them to get off their cowardly butts and take a self-defense class or martial arts. It is good exercise and it teaches a useful skill. Tell them to stop being a victim and take charge of their lives.

"But thanks for reconfirming what a TOTAL F_UCKING MORON you are."

These constant attempts to insult and offend by using curse words is a message to everyone that you know you are wrong and you can't admit it. Another example of cowardice.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"I am 54 years old. I have nieces and nephews, and I have friends who have children in grammar school and high school. Some of my friends are black and their kids go to inner city public schools where children shoot each other with guns. It doesn't matter whether the children go to rich private suburban schools or poor inner city public schools. They all are taught to stand up to bullies because everybody knows that if you allow yourself to be a doormat others will stomp on you forever. There were even examples in the movie of kids who stood up to bullies and the bullies stopped picking on them. I don't know what world you live in but it is not the same world everyone else lives in."

None of what you said there even remotely addresses my point. Which, again, is that no one gains respect because they lose a fight. What they get is hearing "HAHA! That guy got his ass kicked! What a f_ucking loser!" all around them and the painful physical hurt inflicted.

"It is more civilized than pulling a gun on children !!! Are you insane?"

No it isn't. Gun or fist, they amount to the same thing. Your previous paragraph seems to agree.

"I am small. I always have been. I have beaten up people a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier than me many times. And, I have seen others do it too. The bigger combatant does not automatically win. If Alex doesn't know how to fight than he needs to learn. I have often seen kids get beaten up many times but they never backed down. They eventually learned how to fight. And, they never suffered serious permanent injury.

You sound like a coward. You are always making excuses for someone to not stand up for themselves. Life is full or risk. If you don't take any, you will never accomplish anything. Courage is the willingness to take risk.
If you know someone who is being bullied, adult or child, and they are afraid that they don't know how to defend themselves, tell them to do something about it. Tell them to get off their cowardly butts and take a self-defense class or martial arts. It is good exercise and it teaches a useful skill. Tell them to stop being a victim and take charge of their lives."

And if the kid is in a wheelchair or has muscular distrophy, then what? You gonna give them this same bullsh*t?

But no, ALex shouldn't have to learn how to fight, because NOBODY SHOULD BE ASSAULTING HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE. That is the problem, not his incapability of retaliation. They are the ones in the wrong, not him.

"These constant attempts to insult and offend by using curse words is a message to everyone that you know you are wrong and you can't admit it. Another example of cowardice."

No, the message is that YOU are the wrong one and now has to resort to the tone argument to derail the thread.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"None of what you said there even remotely addresses my point. Which, again, is that no one gains respect because they lose a fight. What they get is hearing "HAHA! That guy got his ass kicked! What a f_ucking loser!" all around them and the painful physical hurt inflicted."

That didn't happen to me and it didn't happen to other kids I saw stand up to bullies. It doesn't happen to my nieces or nephews and it doesn't happen to my friends' kids.
What are you saying? Did this happen to you? Do you know someone who this is happening to? Because this is a rare occurrence. If this is truly something you are aware of then it may require special attention. But this doesn't happen most of the time.

"It is more civilized than pulling a gun on children !!! Are you insane?"

"No it isn't. Gun or fist, they amount to the same thing. Your previous paragraph seems to agree."

You are the only one in the world who thinks a child pulling a gun on a bus load of unarmed children is the same as a child fighting another child who is physically threatening them. The gun pulling episode is much more serious because innocent bystanders can get seriously hurt and killed. The only people at risk of minor injury in a fist fight are the two combatants.

"And if the kid is in a wheelchair or has muscular distrophy, then what? You gonna give them this same bullsh*t?"

I am talking about normal ability children, not the severely disabled. The severely disabled is a special situation that requires different treatment. And, the movie didn't show severely disabled kids being bullied.

"But no, ALex shouldn't have to learn how to fight, because NOBODY SHOULD BE ASSAULTING HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE. That is the problem, not his incapability of retaliation. They are the ones in the wrong, not him."

That is not realistic. There are bullies everywhere. All kids have to deal with them sooner or later. And, it is easily dealt with and there are benefits to the victims who successfully deal with their bully problems.

"These constant attempts to insult and offend by using curse words is a message to everyone that you know you are wrong and you can't admit it. Another example of cowardice."

"No, the message is that YOU are the wrong one and now has to resort to the tone argument to derail the thread."

I was just stating my opinions and you were the first to respond to my post by cursing me and calling me names. For someone who claims to be against "bullies attacking others", you have a funny way of disagreeing.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"That didn't happen to me and it didn't happen to other kids I saw stand up to bullies. It doesn't happen to my nieces or nephews and it doesn't happen to my friends' kids.
What are you saying? Did this happen to you? Do you know someone who this is happening to? Because this is a rare occurrence. If this is truly something you are aware of then it may require special attention. But this doesn't happen most of the time."

Yes. I honestly don't see how this can come as such a shock. The outcome of the fight proved that the loser was weak, of course now they're going to be subjected to that.

"You are the only one in the world who thinks a child pulling a gun on a bus load of unarmed children is the same as a child fighting another child who is physically threatening them. The gun pulling episode is much more serious because innocent bystanders can get seriously hurt and killed. The only people at risk of minor injury in a fist fight are the two combatants."

Who may or may not get hurt has nothing at all to do with whether the person is standing up or not.

"I am talking about normal ability children, not the severely disabled. The severely disabled is a special situation that requires different treatment. And, the movie didn't show severely disabled kids being bullied."

What different recourse would that be? And why couldn't the same be done by anyone?

"That is not realistic. There are bullies everywhere. All kids have to deal with them sooner or later. And, it is easily dealt with and there are benefits to the victims who successfully deal with their bully problems."

Wrong. Should every woman have to deal with a rapist "sooner or later"?

"I was just stating my opinions and you were the first to respond to my post by cursing me and calling me names. For someone who claims to be against "bullies attacking others", you have a funny way of disagreeing."

Yes, that's how people respond when they're angry at idiotic threads that blame the victims and try to normalize delinquency

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"Yes. I honestly don't see how this can come as such a shock. The outcome of the fight proved that the loser was weak, of course now they're going to be subjected to that."

Why can't the loser get stronger and learn how to fight? I know what you are going to say, "In a perfect world, bullies wouldn't exist and the vulnerable wouldn't get picked on." Well, we don't live in a perfect world. Now, that being said, what do you propose we do? Until the day comes that you can eradicate all bullies, shouldn't the vulnerable learn how to protect themselves?

"Who may or may not get hurt has nothing at all to do with whether the person is standing up or not."

If a person stands up for themselves in a reasonable way, they will be respected. If a person stands up for themselves in an inappropriate way, then they will be ridiculed and --- arrested. If you want the respect of others you have to stand up for yourself in a reasonable way. I know what you are going to say now, "In a perfect world, bullies wouldn't exist and the vulnerable wouldn't get picked on." Well, we don't live in a perfect world. Now, that being said, what do you propose we do? Until the day comes that you can eradicate all bullies, shouldn't the vulnerable learn how to protect themselves?

"I am talking about normal ability children, not the severely disabled. The severely disabled is a special situation that requires different treatment. And, the movie didn't show severely disabled kids being bullied."

"What different recourse would that be? And why couldn't the same be done by anyone?"

Severely disabled children cannot protect themselves against normally abled children. They need protection. Normally abled kids can defend themselves against other normally abled children. I know what you want to say now, "In a perfect world, bullies wouldn't exist and the vulnerable wouldn't get picked on." Well, we don't live in a perfect world. Now, that being said, what do you propose we do? Until the day comes that you can eradicate all bullies, shouldn't the vulnerable learn how to protect themselves?

"Wrong. Should every woman have to deal with a rapist "sooner or later"?"

Rape is more severe than childhood bullying. And women should learn to protect themselves against rapist. I know what you are going to say, "In a perfect world, rapist wouldn't exist and the vulnerable wouldn't get raped." Well, we don't live in a perfect world. Now, that being said, what do you propose we do? Until the day comes that you can eradicate all rapist, shouldn't the vulnerable learn how to protect themselves?

I agree, bullying and raping is wrong. But, what can we do about it? Until the day comes that all evil is non-existent, we have a responsibility to protect ourselves against evil. And, if you are so irresponsible that you don't protect yourself, you will be vulnerable. You can blame the bully for bullying you but what good will that do? Learning how to protect yourself in a reasonable and appropriate way will do you good.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"Why can't the loser get stronger and learn how to fight?"

What the hell does it matter if they already lost, and everyone knows it?

"If a person stands up for themselves in a reasonable way, they will be respected. If a person stands up for themselves in an inappropriate way, then they will be ridiculed and --- arrested. If you want the respect of others you have to stand up for yourself in a reasonable way."

Again, that doesn't matter. The way she stood up may not be "reasonable" in your dumbass view, but the fact is she stood up.

"Severely disabled children cannot protect themselves against normally abled children. They need protection. Normally abled kids can defend themselves against other normally abled children."

NO THEY CANNOT. That's what I've been saying all along. How can you be so stupid as to not understand such a simple concept?

And again, what kind of "protection" would the disabled get that no one else can?

"Rape is more severe than childhood bullying. And women should learn to protect themselves against rapist. I know what you are going to say, "In a perfect world, rapist wouldn't exist and the vulnerable wouldn't get raped." Well, we don't live in a perfect world. Now, that being said, what do you propose we do? Until the day comes that you can eradicate all rapist, shouldn't the vulnerable learn how to protect themselves?

I agree, bullying and raping is wrong. But, what can we do about it? Until the day comes that all evil is non-existent, we have a responsibility to protect ourselves against evil. And, if you are so irresponsible that you don't protect yourself, you will be vulnerable. You can blame the bully for bullying you but what good will that do? Learning how to protect yourself in a reasonable and appropriate way will do you good."

I left in your crap about what I was supposedly "going to say" here because this draws a parallel. Rapists that are out there are caught and PUNISHED. That's why everyone isn't a rapist, because they know that they will face consequences for such actions. THAT is what you do: instill discipline and harshly punish those who break the rules. This behavior only persists because the perps think they can get away with it and/or not scared of the repercussions. Time to change that.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"What the hell does it matter if they already lost, and everyone knows it?"

They can win the next fight and any fight that occurs after the first beating and then they will demand respect and stop the bullying. This is common sense Razor. Do you have any common sense? Are you a stupid idiot? Are you retarded?

"Again, that doesn't matter. The way she stood up may not be "reasonable" in your dumbass view, but the fact is she stood up."

Can you read Razor? I already told you how it matters. Do you pay attention to what you read? Do you have a memory dumbass?

“NO THEY CANNOT. That's what I've been saying all along. How can you be so stupid as to not understand such a simple concept?”

I always understood that concept. You were the one who asked, "And if the kid is in a wheelchair or has muscular (dystrophy), then what? It is you who are so stupid that you would ask such a stupid question. Are you a moron?

“And again, what kind of "protection" would the disabled get that no one else can?”

This is another stupid question with an obvious answer. Why do you ask such stupid questions? Are you a retarded idiot?

"I left in your crap about what I was supposedly "going to say" here because this draws a parallel. Rapists that are out there are caught and PUNISHED. That's why everyone isn't a rapist, because they know that they will face consequences for such actions. THAT is what you do: instill discipline and harshly punish those who break the rules. This behavior only persists because the perps think they can get away with it and/or not scared of the repercussions. Time to change that."

Wrong. Everyone isn’t a rapist for the same reason everyone is not a bully. Punishment doesn't deter rapist. As soon as they get out most of them rape again. Once again, Razor is showing how stupid he/she is and how little he/she knows about rapist and bullies.

You don't know the first thing about rapist or bullies. You don't even seem to have any common sense.

How old are you Razor? Have you ever dealt successfully with bullies? Do you have "any" experience "at all" with bullies? Answer these questions smartass. Maybe then we can see where you are coming from (probably a mental institution . . . ha ha ha).

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"They can win the next fight and any fight that occurs after the first beating and then they will demand respect and stop the bullying. This is common sense Razor. Do you have any common sense? Are you a stupid idiot? Are you retarded?"

"The discussion is about ONE fight and losing it, rematches fall outside the scope and are completely irrelevant. But to even tread into this territory shows that you agree with me. You previously said: "Even if they lose the fight, they gain the respect of others and themselves." But if that were true, there would be NO NEED to fight again."

Wrong. The movie and discussion is about bullying and how to stop it - not one fight. Try to keep up ass hole.
That specific comment was in reference to a specific event you seemed to be fixated on where the victim lost, was ridiculed for losing and was continually picked on. In that case it would behoove the victim to learn how to fight and how to win thus stopping the bullying and ridicule. Regardless, I don't expect you to understand. You are too stupid.

"And nice language ass hole. Yeah I'm not clean but I at least don't resort to slurs."

I am not resorting to anything. I have always spoken the honest truth on these message boards. Those are honest questions. I am trying to figure out why anyone would behave the way you do.

"Can you read Razor? I already told you how it matters. Do you pay attention to what you read? Do you have a memory dumbass?"

"No pal, you're the f_ucking dumbass. I got that you think she stood up the "wrong way", but that's not important. What matters is that she stood up PERIOD, which clearly disproves your initial claim that no one stood up for themselves."

Wrong. You still don't get it. I am not going to waste my time explaining the obvious to you over and over and over again. What would be the point? You wouldn't get it anyway. You didn't get the first three times. You are too dumb.

"This is another stupid question with an obvious answer. Why do you ask such stupid questions? Are you a retarded idiot?"

"An obvious answer", and yet you can't give it. Are you an idiot?

I could give the answer but you would be a moron before I answered and a moron after. I could explain the answer in the most simple to understand way and you are so stupid that you still wouldn't get it. It has happened many times already during this discussion. Anybody, other than you, reading our post knew the answer as soon as you asked it. More importantly, they knew it was a stupid question with an obvious answer.

"So you think if rape were perfectly legal and had no consequences, that amount who commit it would be exactly the same as it is now? LMFAO!"

Once again Razor/Goren missed the obvious point. That point being that both rape and bullying are considered wrong by society but yet they still continue to exist. Furthermore, punishment and fear of punishment doesn't deter rapist or bullies. Get it dumbf_uck? Bullies and rapist know that bullying and raping are wrong and there are consequences - sometimes severe - but they still continue to bully and rape.

"And yeah, I've dealt with them successfully. THE RIGHT WAY, by reporting. They pay the price and don't try any crap again. So there you have it: punishment and discipline WORK."

Well, in the real world reporting bullying is not as successful as standing up for yourself, but, then again, Razor/Goren doesn't live in the real world so believe whatever you want. It doesn't matter. Your opinion is not important anyway.

"Where am I coming from? The exact same place as nearly every other poster here. Aside from one or two other thugs, you're alone in your garbage views."

You still haven't answered the question, "How old are you?". I would ask it again but I am not even sure you would tell the truth. It is not a stretch from ignorant, stupid, nonsensical, insulting, offensive, disrespectful and obscene little piss-ant to liar.
It is consistent for posters on these message boards to only respond to post that they disagree with unless they have something more to add. There is not much more to add to a simple, obvious, clear, correct position (a position that apparently went over your head). The posters on this thread that have agreed with me have done so in a much more impressive way than those who disagreed. The ones who disagreed just responded with anger and threats because their position was dumb. The "thuggish" posts were made by the ones who disagreed - like you.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"Wrong. The movie and discussion is about bullying and how to stop it - not one fight. Try to keep up ass hole.
That specific comment was in reference to a specific event you seemed to be fixated on where the victim lost, was ridiculed for losing and was continually picked on. In that case it would behoove the victim to learn how to fight and how to win thus stopping the bullying and ridicule. Regardless, I don't expect you to understand. You are too stupid."

Yes I get that, but that you entertained this means you are conceding that your claim may not be true.

And as I had responded before, it doesn't matter to anyone else when the fight is already over. Sure anyone who lost can say "They got lucky, I'll get 'em next time!", but talk is cheap. Until they actually do, the record stands.

"I am not resorting to anything. I have always spoken the honest truth on these message boards. Those are honest questions. I am trying to figure out why anyone would behave the way you do."

Since you're doing the same and worse (I never called anyone "retarded", the slur I was referring to), seems like you figured it out just fine.

"Wrong. You still don't get it. I am not going to waste my time explaining the obvious to you over and over and over again. What would be the point? You wouldn't get it anyway. You didn't get the first three times. You are too dumb."

Your very first sentence here: "The thousand pound elephant in the room is the fact that none of these victims ever stood up for themselves."

When it was pointed out that one in fact did stand up for herself, you say it was "the wrong way". But that in no way changes the fact that she stood up. You stated unequivocally that no one did, and that simply isn't true.

You were wrong. Time to move on.

"I could give the answer but you would be a moron before I answered and a moron after. I could explain the answer in the most simple to understand way and you are so stupid that you still wouldn't get it. It has happened many times already during this discussion. Anybody, other than you, reading our post knew the answer as soon as you asked it. More importantly, they knew it was a stupid question with an obvious answer."

You can't give the answer because you simply don't have one. Any course of action that the handicapped can take can also be taken by non.

"Once again Razor/Goren missed the obvious point. That point being that both rape and bullying are considered wrong by society but yet they still continue to exist. Furthermore, punishment and fear of punishment doesn't deter rapist or bullies. Get it dumbf_uck? Bullies and rapist know that bullying and raping are wrong and there are consequences - sometimes severe - but they still continue to bully and rape."

And once again your stupid ass missed my obvious point. Without punishment and consequences, there would be A LOT MORE rapists than there are now. As shown by this study for instance:

http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html

· 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it

"Well, in the real world reporting bullying is not as successful as standing up for yourself, but, then again, Razor/Goren doesn't live in the real world so believe whatever you want. It doesn't matter. Your opinion is not important anyway"

It's MORE successful. They don't mess with you again AND get punishment.

"You still haven't answered the question, "How old are you?". I would ask it again but I am not even sure you would tell the truth. It is not a stretch from ignorant, stupid, nonsensical, insulting, offensive, disrespectful and obscene little piss-ant to liar.
It is consistent for posters on these message boards to only respond to post that they disagree with unless they have something more to add. There is not much more to add to a simple, obvious, clear, correct position (a position that apparently went over your head). The posters on this thread that have agreed with me have done so in a much more impressive way than those who disagreed. The ones who disagreed just responded with anger and threats because their position was dumb. The "thuggish" posts were made by the ones who disagreed - like you."

25. Unlike you, I went to school in THIS century.

And no, you and your thug pals are the ones with the dumb position. You support the bullies and condemn the vicitms. That is why you are receiving such vocal disagreement.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] hodie 11 years ago

Goren47, congrats on proving movieliker1 a fraud with an anger problem... In other words, a troll.
I'm a 59-year-old woman, went to school around the same time as him, and I call BS on his story.

"Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?"

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"25. Unlike you, I went to school in THIS century."

Okay. So you say you are 25. If that is true then I am 54, with a lifetime of experience of dealing successfully with bullies.
I told you I counsel kids in grammar school, high school and college on, among other things, how to deal with bullies and they are all successful using my advice. These kids go to school now, some to inner city schools with gun violence and others to rich suburban schools without. So your position that I don't know how things are today is as nonsensical as your other positions. I have more wisdom and experience than you. (I have my own business and I have kids your age working for me.)
My post are obviously sensible and yours are not. So, anyone who wants to read my post and yours can decide for themselves which one of us they think is more knowledgeable on the subjects of bullying, rapist and parenting.
Not to mention - your initial and constant desire to be disrespectful and obscene - that ought to impress readers . . . ha ha ha . . . (I only became disrespectful and obscene after you refused to stop.)

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"Okay. So you say you are 25. If that is true then I am 54, with a lifetime of experience of dealing successfully with bullies.
I told you I counsel kids in grammar school, high school and college on, among other things, how to deal with bullies and they are all successful using my advice. These kids go to school now, some to inner city schools with gun violence and others to rich suburban schools without. So your position that I don't know how things are today is as nonsensical as your other positions. I have more wisdom and experience than you. (I have my own business and I have kids your age working for me.)"

Oh really? And you tell them to be violent and that it's all their fault in the first place? You never report these incidents? No wonder this is such a problem. Clowns like you can do something yet you don't lift a finger.

"My post are obviously sensible and yours are not. So, anyone who wants to read my post and yours can decide for themselves which one of us they think is more knowledgeable on the subjects of bullying, rapist and parenting.
Not to mention - your initial and constant desire to be disrespectful and obscene - that ought to impress readers . . . ha ha ha . . . (I only became disrespectful and obscene after you refused to stop.)"

Don't make me laugh. You've been nothing but disrespectful and offending all the way through. Look what you titled this very thread. Your entire reason for being here is to shift blame from the predators to the prey. You are not being treated with respect because your position is a reprehensible one.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"Oh really? And you tell them to be violent and that it's all their fault in the first place? You never report these incidents? No wonder this is such a problem. Clowns like you can do something yet you don't lift a finger."

Sometimes the only way to fight violence is with violence.

"Don't make me laugh. You've been nothing but disrespectful and offending all the way through. Look what you titled this very thread. Your entire reason for being here is to shift blame from the predators to the prey."

The whole point of these message boards is to discuss movies and share opinions. It is one thing to say that a group of characters in a movie are a bunch of sissies. It is another to attack a member of the message boards personally and to be insulting, offensive and obscene.

"You are not being treated with respect because your position is a reprehensible one."

You are reprehensible.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"Sometimes the only way to fight violence is with violence."

Not here.

"The whole point of these message boards is to discuss movies and share opinions. It is one thing to say that a group of characters in a movie are a bunch of sissies. It is another to attack a member of the message boards personally and to be insulting, offensive and obscene."

These are not "characters in a movie", they are REAL PEOPLE. And what, you think calling them "sissies" is a sign of respect?

"You are reprehensible."

Oh really? I'm the one who's on the side of the bullies and blaming the victims and calling them "sissies"?

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"Sometimes the only way to fight violence is with violence."

"Not here."

Where is the "here" that you are referring to - your imaginary dreamland? In the real world, this statement is true, "Sometimes the only way to fight violence is with violence."

"The whole point of these message boards is to discuss movies and share opinions. It is one thing to say that a group of characters in a movie are a bunch of sissies. It is another to attack a member of the message boards personally and to be insulting, offensive and obscene."

"These are not "characters in a movie", they are REAL PEOPLE. And what, you think calling them "sissies" is a sign of respect?"

"You are reprehensible."

"Oh really? I'm the one who's on the side of the bullies and blaming the victims and calling them "sissies"?"

Sometimes the truth hurts. You are upset because you are sissy and a coward and you are too afraid to admit it.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"Where is the "here" that you are referring to - your imaginary dreamland? In the real world, this statement is true, "Sometimes the only way to fight violence is with violence.""

And this is NOT one of those times. There are authorities in place whose job it is to protect their citizens.

"Sometimes the truth hurts. You are upset because you are sissy and a coward and you are too afraid to admit it."

And my point is proven. You are a complete lowlife thug and deserve to be treated with ZERO respect.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"And this is NOT one of those times. There are authorities in place whose job it is to protect their citizens."

What are you talking about? This is a movie about children bullying other children. What authorities and what citizens?

"And my point is proven. You are a complete lowlife thug and deserve to be treated with ZERO respect."

You are obviously enraged, angry, full of hate and a desire to seek vengeance against all who prey on the weak. Whether or not you admit it, you or someone close to you, was victimized and unable to deal with it. I agree that bullying, raping and robbing is wrong and those who do such things should be punished. I do not pretend to have the solution that will end all evil. My position is that those who try to prepare themselves against being preyed upon will be victimized less than those who don't. But still some will be victimized and it will be wrong and unfair.

I am not without sympathy, and empathy towards anyone who is victimized. I do not hate you. I feel sorry for you because you are obviously full of an inordinate amount of anger towards predators and that is not healthy. If you or someone you know was the victim of undeserved bullying, or a criminal act, I am sorry and I understand your desire to see those responsible punished.
I don't know who you are and I don't believe anybody on this message board knows you personally. So, if you want to describe in detail (without any identifying information) what event or events have made you so angry, I will listen. But if you don't, that is your decision. It may help to talk about it but you don't have to, certainly with me.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"What are you talking about? This is a movie about children bullying other children. What authorities and what citizens?"

School, police, government, etc. We do not live in some anarchy.

"You are obviously enraged, angry, full of hate and a desire to seek vengeance against all who prey on the weak. Whether or not you admit it, you or someone close to you, was victimized and unable to deal with it. I agree that bullying, raping and robbing is wrong and those who do such things should be punished. I do not pretend to have the solution that will end all evil. My position is that those who try to prepare themselves against being preyed upon will be victimized less than those who don't. But still some will be victimized and it will be wrong and unfair.

I am not without sympathy, and empathy towards anyone who is victimized. I do not hate you. I feel sorry for you because you are obviously full of an inordinate amount of anger towards predators and that is not healthy. If you or someone you know was the victim of undeserved bullying, or a criminal act, I am sorry and I understand your desire to see those responsible punished.
I don't know who you are and I don't believe anybody on this message board knows you personally. So, if you want to describe in detail (without any identifying information) what event or events have made you so angry, I will listen. But if you don't, that is your decision. It may help to talk about it but you don't have to, certainly with me."

"Unhealthy"? It's that driving force which compels people to fight for justice.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"I feel sorry for you because you are obviously full of an inordinate amount of anger towards predators and that is not healthy."

"Unhealthy"? It's that driving force which compels people to fight for justice.

It is also the driving force behind criminal behavior and terrorism, not to mention the number one cause of life threatening health problems - be careful.

It seems you are against bullies and criminals. I am also but - I am not enraged by their existence. You seem to be. If so, why do you think that is?

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Is it vigilantism you're referring to? Cause if so, that's pretty damn hypocritical. This whole you've been advocating for exactly that. You say we should ignore the authorities and take the law into our own hands.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

Once again Razor, you missed the point. Nothing good comes out of reacting to rage except for calming down and trying to figure out why you are so enraged. People who fight evil effectively do it out of a moral and ethical desire for justice and a better world - not out of rage.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

This "point" seems to be something you're making up as you go along.

The first line was this: "you are obviously full of an inordinate amount of anger towards predators and that is not healthy." And then "It is also the driving force behind criminal behavior". Criminal behavior used against criminals out of a hatred for crime is vigilantism, is it not? And that's exactly what you've been condoning this entire time. Like I said, you're encouraging people to take the law into their own hands instead of letting the proper authorities do their job.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

When did I say conduct criminal behavior? When did I say be a vigilante? When did I say take the law into your own hands? You are not making things up again are you Razor?

Not only is it not against the law, it is recommended by the law to defend yourself when being attacked. But apparently Razor does not want people defending themselves. He/she wants people to cry to the proper authorities, "Help me please! I don't want to take care of myself! I am a sissy! We have the right to be pathetic, dependent, unable cowards! RAZOR SAID SO !!!"

By the way Razor, if we did things your way, who would the proper authorities be? They would go to the same schools the sissies do and --- they would be sissies too !!! Who would the police cry to? Eventually, the bullies would rule the world because they would be the only ones willing to stand up for themselves. See how your way wouldn't work? We don't want to teach kids to be dependent, unable, cowards. We want to teach them to be courageous and able because --- one day they are going to have rescue you and your self-righteous band of sissies because you all refuse to take care of yourselves.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

From post 1. Is your point not that they should beat the other person up? To resort to violence? That is criminal behavior, and certainly not allowed in any school. Which by the way do not make allowances for self-defense. Any two kids who fight will get the same punishment, period. They don't care who started it or why.

And your last paragraph makes no sense whatsoever. NONE. Why would the authorities be the "sissies"? They're the one with actual POWER who can give bullies and criminals their due punishments.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"Is your point not that they should beat the other person up? To resort to violence?

My point is they should stand up for themselves. Not allow bullies to bully them. I stood up to bullies. We did not always end up in a fight. As soon as they realized I wasn't backing down, they moved on to an easier target.

"That is criminal behavior, and certainly not allowed in any school. Which by the way do not make allowances for self-defense. Any two kids who fight will get the same punishment, period. They don't care who started it or why."

It is not criminal behavior to defend yourself against a physical threat. You are correct. I was punished for fighting in school. I saw that as taking a small sacrifice in order to teach that bully a lesson. He never picked on me again and I never got punished again.

"And your last paragraph makes no sense whatsoever. NONE. Why would the authorities be the "sissies"? They're the one with actual POWER who can give bullies and criminals their due punishments."

So, you have no objection to one kid effectively stopping another kid from bullying him/her even if it ends in violence? Your only concern is the kids who can't defend themselves from bullies?

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Yes of course I'd object, because by that logic murder is justified. That's sure effectively stopping another kid from bullying. I'm personally not going to shed any tears over a dead psychopath, but, to tie into my recent posts, that is taking the into your own hands.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

That is ridiculous. In all the times I stood up to a bully, no one ever got killed. No matter how successful I was, I never murdered anybody.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

I don't recall saying you did. What I do recall is you asking if I objected to people dealing with bullies through violence, to which I answered with that post.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

With that logic, you would be more in favor of a woman, who is being attacked to allow the rapist to rape her, hope she survives, and then report it to the police than you would be in favor of the same woman successfully defending herself from the attacker and never being raped. That doesn't make any sense.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

I explicitly said MURDER. Murder is not self-defense. Sure someone should defend themselves (as Malcolm X said, that's not even self-defense, it's plain intelligence), but if they can't it's not suddenly all their fault and the attacker deserves to get away.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

You seem to have a terrific command of the English language but your ability to deal with general concepts is anything but terrific.

I asked you, "So, you have no objection to one kid effectively stopping another kid from bullying him/her even if it ends in violence?" To which you responded, "Yes of course I'd object, because by that logic murder is justified." To which I responded, "That is ridiculous. In all the times I stood up to a bully, no one ever got killed. No matter how successful I was, I never murdered anybody." In other words, it is ridiculous to think children trying to stand up to a bully would result in anybody getting killed.
Then you responded, "I don't recall saying you did. What I do recall is you asking if I objected to people dealing with bullies through violence, to which I answered with that post." I guess I need to point out here - violence and murder are not the same thing. Then I responded, "With that logic, you would be more in favor of a woman, who is being attacked to allow the rapist to rape her, hope she survives, and then report it to the police than you would be in favor of the same woman successfully defending herself from the attacker and never being raped. That doesn't make any sense." In other words, the woman may need to use violence to thwart a rape attempt. To which you responded, "I explicitly said MURDER. Murder is not self-defense." See the disconnect there?
I am trying to talk about the movie, "Bully" - children in school. You are complicating the discussion by bringing in adult crime. They are not the same thing. Furthermore, it is not murder for someone to kill someone who is an imminent mortal threat to them. It is justified homicide. So, condoning violence in self-defense is not condoning murder.

"Sure someone should defend themselves (as Malcolm X said, that's not even self-defense, it's plain intelligence), but if they can't it's not suddenly all their fault and the attacker deserves to get away."

If someone unjustly attacks another, the attacker is guilty of assault regardless of whether or not the victim can defend themselves. But if the victim is irresponsible about defending themselves, they are guilty of being irresponsible when it comes to defending themselves.
Some people are more vulnerable to crime than others. Sometimes, this cannot be helped. But sometimes it can be by the potential victim. In those cases, the victim shares some responsibility if they are attacked. People who leave their keys in their unlocked cars are more vulnerable to car theft than people who don't. Those people share some responsibility if their car is stolen. The thief is still guilty of car theft but, the victim is guilty of being irresponsible when it comes to protecting their car.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

But it's not an "adult crime". Minors murder too. Sometimes they are tried as adults but they are still not adults.

Anyway, "one kid effectively stopping another kid from bullying him/her even if it ends in violence" does not imply self-defense. Pre-emptive attack would qualify as well.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"But it's not an "adult crime". Minors murder too. Sometimes they are tried as adults but they are still not adults."

We are talking about bullying in general --- not extremely rare occurrences.

"Anyway, "one kid effectively stopping another kid from bullying him/her even if it ends in violence" does not imply self-defense. Pre-emptive attack would qualify as well."

It implies self-defense to everyone except Razor/Goren.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

No it doesn't. It means exactly what it says - effectively stopping another kid from bullying. Ore-emptive attack and, yes, even killing fit this condition.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"No it doesn't. It means exactly what it says - effectively stopping another kid from bullying. Ore-emptive attack and, yes, even killing fit this condition."

You are going to tell me what I meant when I wrote something? You know what I meant to say better than I do?

Murdering a child unnecessarily is not an "effective" way of dealing with a bully. Why would you think anyone would think that?

Do you know what the word effective means? It means producing a desired, intended and/or expected result. Why would anyone want to murder a child for being a "bad" kid? Murder is against the law. The murderer would be arrested, prosecuted and imprisoned. Why would anyone want to have one child kill another child and the surviving child go to prison for murder. That is not a desired, intended or expected result of dealing effectively with childhood bullying.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

So that they can't hurt anyone ever again, which would be true. But once more, that is being a vigilante and our society would cease to function if everyone took the law into their own hands.

BTW, if I had said right off that I didn't object, would you not have instantly countered with "oh so you'd be fine with someone murdering a bully?" I'm not sure why you even asked this question in the first place if the only thing being referenced was self-defense.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

I don't know Razor, maybe you are a troll (someone who argues and disagrees for the sake of arguing and disagreeing). You seem too smart to continually take the ludicrous positions you express.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

The "ludicrous positions" are your own. That's why I'm posting, because of how absurd and odious you are.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"The "ludicrous positions" are your own. That's why I'm posting, because of how absurd and odious you are."

Not according to most of the parents, teachers and children I talk with. According to them, "your" positions are absurd.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

Then they're lazy, corrupt, or both. I'm guessing none of them saw this movie. If they did and came away thinking "neglecting the problem totally works", then I truly worry for the children under their care.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"Then they're lazy, corrupt, or both. I'm guessing none of them saw this movie. If they did and came away thinking "neglecting the problem totally works", then I truly worry for the children under their care."

No, they are intelligent, caring, loving and successful parents who produce healthy independent children and who saw the movie.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

They saw the movie, and still think they shouldn't do anything? Then these people are anything but intelligent, caring, or loving.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

“They saw the movie, and still think they shouldn't do anything? Then these people are anything but intelligent, caring, or loving.”

No, the healthy and independent children they produce are proof that the adults were intelligent, caring and loving.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

I'm sorry, but if they indeed saw this movie and didn't think anything should be done, then they are oblivious and/or cruel people.

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

“I'm sorry, but if they indeed saw this movie and didn't think anything should be done, then they are oblivious and/or cruel people.”

Most people agree that something should be done about extremely bad cases of bullying. But you are implying that something should be done about all bullies. Most people don’t agree with that. Most people feel that most bullies can be effectively dealt with by most children.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

That's right, ALL bullies need to be stopped. How's that quote go, evil triumphs when the good do nothing. Really, how do you think those "extremely bad" cases got to be so extremely bad?

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] misterplatypus 9 years ago

"I gained the respect of others"

There's zero chance you gained anybody's respect. Ever.

[–] Tweck 11 years ago

Movieliker1 is a troll. I've been through exactly what you're talking about, and completely agree with you.

[–] kobrakai-1 11 years ago

If you don't think that a girl pulling a gun on someone is enough of a sign that they're standing up for themselves, then there's something wrong with you.

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

There is a right way to stand up to a bully and there is a wrong way. Pulling a gun on a bus is the wrong way.

[–] Quanfa 11 years ago

You have to stand up to a bully physically, not with deadly force, unless you really think you're going to get killed, then you should quit school altogether.

* The only consequence for fighting should be a day suspension. Sure, if it happens more than a certain amount of times you should be kicked out, but if that's due to taking up for yourself you should probably get out of that school for your own safety anyway.

* This argument about losing a fight making things worse is absolutely, positively wrong. And you can say I'm pulling that out of my ***, but the psychology of the bully has been well document for a very long time. They want to dominate someone, period. Fighting back, just like in prison, is critical. It's about not being a punk, not whether you're good at fighting. Now that doesn't mean that everyone else should stand by and let this garbage happen. If a teacher catches a kid picking on another kid, the bully should be disciplined. And if you see one of your own friends getting picked on and you don't do anything, you're just as guilty as the bully. Kids have to be allowed not to be cowards and encouraged to stand up for themselves or others.

I feel sorry for anyone who gets picked on, and I have to think any reasonable, sensitive adult would. But it's not reasonable to think you can make the world more sensitive because your child is afraid to fight.

Oh, this is also largely predicated on school districts not handing out simple assault tickets to parents when their kid gets into a fight sticking up for himself or herself. The school districts and schools have to let kids defend themselves without fear of repercussion from the school.

[–] Razor187 11 years ago

"You have to stand up to a bully physically, not with deadly force, unless you really think you're going to get killed, then you should quit school altogether.

* The only consequence for fighting should be a day suspension. Sure, if it happens more than a certain amount of times you should be kicked out, but if that's due to taking up for yourself you should probably get out of that school for your own safety anyway.
...
Oh, this is also largely predicated on school districts not handing out simple assault tickets to parents when their kid gets into a fight sticking up for himself or herself. The school districts and schools have to let kids defend themselves without fear of repercussion from the school."

Yeah, that's another thing. If the school catches two kids in a fight, they don't care who started it or why. Both will get punished the same.

"* This argument about losing a fight making things worse is absolutely, positively wrong. And you can say I'm pulling that out of my ***, but the psychology of the bully has been well document for a very long time. They want to dominate someone, period. Fighting back, just like in prison, is critical. It's about not being a punk, not whether you're good at fighting. Now that doesn't mean that everyone else should stand by and let this garbage happen. If a teacher catches a kid picking on another kid, the bully should be disciplined. And if you see one of your own friends getting picked on and you don't do anything, you're just as guilty as the bully. Kids have to be allowed not to be cowards and encouraged to stand up for themselves or others.

I feel sorry for anyone who gets picked on, and I have to think any reasonable, sensitive adult would. But it's not reasonable to think you can make the world more sensitive because your child is afraid to fight."

Um, and how is a fight where a bully kicks the living sh*t out of the other kid without getting a scrath or breaking a sweat not show dominance?

And so Governor Devlin, because even the cost of freedom can be too high, I REFUSE your pardon!

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

I totally agree "aleisterhigen". Well said.

[–] The_Mob_Has_Spoken 11 years ago

A thousand pound elephant would be a tiny elephant.

"Ass to ass. Ha ha ha ha. ASS TO ASS!"; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa5z77EI8y0

[–] DSo1976 11 years ago

Unfortunately these days (not sure how old you are), if you stand up to a bully and fight back there's several negative outcomes.

1. You youself will get charged with assault, and face whatever legal consequences come your way as well as whatever punishment the school decides to dole out (suspension, expulsion, etc).
2. You will end up getting jumped by the bully's group of friends and end up on the losing end of a very uneven fight.
3. You can very well end up getting shot or stabbed (possibly resulting in your death). Don't think it can't happen? Some kid at the age of 12 was just arrested last week in Toronto for bringing a handgun to school.
4. You actually end up winning the fight, and the bully doesn't respect you more for it, but end up pissing them off more because they now look bad... End result the bully escalates the situation and picks on you more or makes sure they don't lose the next fight by using weapons (refer to #3).

Even back when I was in school, there really were no effective ways to deal with bullies other than to try to ignore it, sit back and let it happen, and then go on with life trying to shake it off. Educators have no authority anymore, and as long as parents refuse to accept that their kids may by problem children, there's really nothing that the schools can do. Police intervention is possible, but it often comes down to conflicting stories about what happened and lack of evidence to press any charges (he said, she said), which police are reluctant to do anyways when dealing with children.

"You're going to need a bigger boat." - Chief Brody

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

Your post "DSo1976", sounds defeatist - like you have accepted the position of a victim. If you accept the position of a victim, the bullies will treat you like one.

I am 54 years old. I was bullied in school. It wasn't until I stood up for myself that it stopped. I have a big family with lots of kids. I have lots of friends with lots of children. These kids go to grammar and high school. Some go to inner city schools with gun violence and some go to rich suburban schools. All the children and parents tell me the only way to stop a bully is to stand up to them.

If the child comes from a good family, has lots of friends, has social skills and physical ability there is very little chance that they will be continually bullied. Every child faces bullying sooner or later. The best way to deal with it is to stand up to the bully.

We all know telling the teacher, the principle or the parents is ineffective. Many times the reporter, the complainer and/or the victim get in more trouble than the bully. If the child doesn't stand up to the bully, it usually gets worse.

Most bullies are cowards. They will pick on the weakest kids. If a child stands up to them, he/she is telling them he/she is not the weakest kid. The bullies will move on to a weaker kid.

You may be confusing bullies with criminals and/or criminal gangs. Those kids are different than bullies. Their reasons for violence and intimidation are different than the bullies'. But in reference to this movie, this movie showed bullies bullying other children - not criminals or criminal gangs.

[–] DSo1976 11 years ago

I'll admit that at the age of 36 I'm probably a bit out of the loop as to how bad bullying is these days, though the news has done a pretty good job reporting it in recent years... So I hope that at the age of 54 you can concede that school is a totally different place than when you were there.

I was never actually bullied in school. I can't even remember being teased for much... Yeah, I had pretty bad acne when I was in my early teen years, and a couple people would make the odd joke about it, but that was it... It wasn't constant and relentless, it never followed me home.. Generally I had nothing to worry about from bullies.

I am definitely not confusing bullies with criminals (though often times, the line between the two is blurry, especially once you get past elementary school and into highschool aged kids).... I think you are simply a bit out of touch with the times and what life is now like for people this age. I am as well, but I think you moreso just because of your age.

Problem these days is everything for a bully rides on reputation... And yes, in the past it did too, but nowadays if you beat up a bully, they'll likely come back with their friends and/or a weapon.

Just two weeks ago in Toronto, a 12 year old was arrested for bringing a handgun to school. It's still not a common occurrence, but it's starting to happen more and more. Not to mention the rash of child suicides that have been attributed to bullying. As far as I can remember, that NEVER happened when I was a kid... Yes, some of that may be due to the fact that kids were more willing to stand up to their bullies, but I honestly believe it's because bullying has gotten worse.

"You're going to need a bigger boat." - Chief Brody

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

"I'll admit that at the age of 36 I'm probably a bit out of the loop as to how bad bullying is these days, though the news has done a pretty good job reporting it in recent years... So I hope that at the age of 54 you can concede that school is a totally different place than when you were there."

Although I started high school thirty years ago, I have friends and family with children in grammar and high school now. They all tell me that the best way to deal with a bully is to stand up to them. Some of them go to bad public schools with gun violence. Those parents and children still say the best thing to do is to stand up to them. So, even though I am not in school now, I talk with parents and students in school who are. So if things have changed, apparently dealing with bullies hasn't.

"Problem these days is everything for a bully rides on reputation... And yes, in the past it did too, but nowadays if you beat up a bully, they'll likely come back with their friends and/or a weapon."

That is a cowardly excuse as in, "I am afraid because it might get worse". There were gangs when I was in school. They did not use weapons but they still fought. I could have said the same thing, "He might jump me after school with three friends". But my attitude was, "If he does, they better kill me because if I survive, I am going to jump them with ten of mine and we are going to break every bone in their bodies".

A coward makes excuses for not doing the right thing. A brave person does whatever is necessary. I was always taught, "It is better to die with honor than live with shame". That is the only way a policeman, a fireman or a soldier can serve effectively. That is the test bullies are presenting their victims with, "Are you a coward or a brave person?" My attitude was, "I rather die defending myself against a bully than survive hiding from him everyday at school". It never got that far because I passed the test --- even when I lost the fight.

[–] alexisjoseguevara 11 years ago

It only took the first few post before someone called you a troll, I agree with you somewhat. I was a perfect example of a bullied child, I had the benefit of starting school a year sooner, I never grew up to be a big adult. I was bullied a lot, and one day, I got tired and I fought back. I got my ass kicked! and then I fought back again. These bullies became my associated, they stopped picking on me, even if I never liked them, and always had an uncomfortable feeling that they will again lash out on me. I was cautious and nervous, but not afraid.

My father an alcoholic used to do training with me during his drunken sessions, your in the army, do push ups, then jumping jacks, show me a punch, be strong. Its the only time he would give me attention. Seems like it paid off, when it came time to throw a punch, even though the way he was teaching me was wrong, I had enough in me to even try to throw a punch.

Look life isn't sweet, and we still live in a world of domination, survival of the fittest and it starts young. Learn to defend yourself, make an effort. I might look like a wimp, but I'll do some damage before I go down, even if it might be your hair, mind you I never once went down, a lot of these bullies are full of bark, except one, he mess up my nose bad, never got that fixed, but people were shocked to see my face bloody and I was full of rage, he never touched me again after that.

Epilogue, I'm part of a successful company and I'm still climbing to the top, luckily I learned how to talk, work my way around bullies, use my words instead of my fist, because bullies still exist, and they keep you down in other ways, such as promotions, money or social status.

The part I don't agree with is, "thousand pound elephant" ? That's a mighty small elephant... LOL

[–] movieliker1 11 years ago

Well, thank you for agreeing.

(A thousand pound elephant would be small compared to other elephants but it would be hard not to notice in a room with other people.)