MovieChat Forums > Four Horsemen (2012) Discussion > It was pretty good until the gold standa...

It was pretty good until the gold standard push


It was pretty good until the gold standard push. IMO they should've left this and the fiat money mentions out as they were kind of just thrown there. I've read some pretty compelling arguments against gold standard from youtube comments even in various fiat money & ron paul videos and nothing in this doc really answered to any of that and if you ask me this sort of doc is the most compelling if it sticks to verifiable things and avoids speculation. I also felt the trader interviewed didn't add much to the doc.

The narrator/voice over message at the end was over bearing and I had to switch channel.

I was surprised by the Durden quote as I recall hearing something very similar, maybe not exactly before. I've read ZH now and then prior to seeing this.

Also I wouldn't entirely sign this IMDB summary
"Four Horsemen is free from mainstream media propaganda, doesn't bash bankers, criticize politicians ...."
The doc actually named few bankers and politicians and overall blamed all of them...


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Our money is backed by nothing, it's not worth the paper it's printed on, or the 0s and 1s that make it appear in the digital world out of nothing (when you borrow money, you actually create it, the money you borrow did not exist before, so ask yourself the logic of that, and how long it can go on) so the gold standard would at least let us sleep easier, but you're right, that is not the answer, Glass-Steagall and a real credit system to replace to crazy British global economic system we have now is the only real solution.

"You were assimilated, resistance was futile!"

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Fiat currency is why we are in the mess we are in. It is obviously the most pressing of all of the crises we find ourselves in right now. You thinking fighting a debt problem with more debt is the answer then? I think not. Issuing nationalised money at zero interest is the only solution to our predicament. Printing more just increases the scale of the problem and delays the inevitable.

www.positivemoney.org.uk

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I won't waste time listing the arguments against the gold standard, because they're not difficult to find, even the Wikipedia page has a good section on the pros/cons of the gold standard.

But it's insanity. If you're a complete neophyte about economic issues the idea that money should be backed by something (curiously quite an arbitrary choice it should gold, as if it has some magical properties) has some intuitive appeal, but it is absolute nonsense from an economic viewpoint.

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

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The dollar has lost over 95% of it's value since the US went off of the gold standard. That's good enough reason to have at least the choice of using a commodity back currency imo.

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And, since then, the USA has grow exponentially... would you change that too?

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You really need to define growth. Growth as in things got done by putting trillions of dollars on a credit card that the tax payer has to pay interest on? Growth at the price of having super-rich and an inflating poor population? Growth in endless wars that are financed indefinitely because the government can just print the money to finance them? Growth in a stock market that trades in the people's mortgages at the risk of the homeowners losing their house and the banks getting bailed out?

None of the above would be happening if the government couldn't just freely print money. So yea, when you have a credit card-like economy you'll see a lot of growth, but is the price we pay for that growth worth it? I would most definitely sacrifice growth for safety and stability.

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And, since then, the USA has grow exponentially... would you change that too?
Why can`t people produce, perform R&D etc without a fiat-money system?

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Fiat money allows those at the top to get something for nothing to the ruin of all. The true problem is usery. That is where debt slavery is created.

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x Hatma_Rolju


....so you you must be yourself a total neophyte about economic issues and history for ignoring the reasons why gold has naturally emerged as a form of money in the history of humankind.....it is not "arbitrary" at all, gold itself is not "magic" but it has some peculiar characteristics that make it very well suited to be used as money....do your own research.

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Absolute nonsense. 'Gold has some peculiar characteristics'... Again, absolute nonsense. It is a historical coincidence that gold is viewed as it is, it has no intrinsic economic value that would make it better suited as a backer of currency than say, silver. And above all, it's not a feasible proposal, it can't be implemented unilaterally, even by such an overwhelming economic power as the US and why the hell would other countries that have much less gold wish to have it only to restrict their economic growth and money supply?

We don't live in the postwar times, when the US had half the world's wealth and it could ram down anyone's throat whichever international system it wanted to (the result was the international institutions we have today).

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

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Hafma please do not get offended but you display total complete ignoranze about the history of gold as monetary assets and, again, you totally ignore the reasons why it is extremely well suited for that role....you ignore it, I suppose, because you do not even try to address the issue.
Silver has indeed played an inportant part in the history of money but it has one fatal flaw that does make it less suitable...it has significat industrial use compared to gold so it does get "used up" and subjected to more pronounced swings.

The proposal is very feasible and the US is actually the last entity that wants to return to gold (not the contrary as you assume).

Paper has no intrinsic economic value either so that argument is totally spurious like some of the gold bashers blabbering other utter nonsense like "you cannot eat gold" (actually you can but that is besides the point :-) )......Gold is very well suited for 4 main reasons.....let's see if you can identify them.....


I suggest for you to read other sourses other than Krugman & Co.....I was laughing out loud when in a debate he said that "he wants to go back to the prosperous America of his parents immediately after WWII".......hmm ok, well at that time we were in a quasi gold standard with the Bretton Woods Agreement......

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Issuing nationalised money at zero interest is the only solution to our predicament. Printing more just increases the scale of the problem and delays the inevitable
Isn`that a contadiction?

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It should be noted that much of the content you mentioned had a lot to do with Dominic Frisby's involvement with the film, who was also the voice over. Look him up on youtube and the article he wrote about the film.

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X Nemo


....so you learned about the arguments against the gold standard from youtube comments and fiat money sources.....well you have a long way to go then....

P.S.

The "tyler Durden" qoute is from the movie "Fight Club" (one of the character's name is Tyler Durden) it has nothign to do with Zerohedge.

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You did not give one single solitary reason why a return to gold would be beneficial. The silly 'don't get offended but' did not include any argument.

I don't know of a single respectable academic economist (although, granted, that is not saying much), either a public figure or a professor I had, that believed that the benefits of a gold standard outweigh the costs.

I do know of a certain class of people who are vocal about a return to the gold standard. People who own gold. And the anti-government zealots and nuts of course.


Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

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Hafma

You did not give one single solitary reason why a return to gold would be beneficial. The silly 'don't get offended but' did not include any argument.


Ok, in simple terms.

Gold is extremely durable, extremely divisible, reasonably rare (actually it increase in supply at about 3% a year, coincidentally matching natural population growth)

There are several different types of Gold Standard, full backing, partial backing (historically a backing of 40% is sufficient), Gold exchange standard, etc...

The Gold Standard can be occasinally disruptive only when associated with the fraudolent practice of fractional reserve lending (the banking system we have today where banks create credit in multiples of their real reserves on hand), a legally authorized ponzi scheme which is destined to collapse regularly and it is the root cause of the economic cycle.

The Gold Standard works very well with full reserve lending.....even with the flawed fractinal reserve lending shceme, the classic Gold standard of the second half of the 19th century up to 1914, on the eve of WWI, worked almost perfectly, crisis were rare, painful at times and very short (fault of the fractional reserve banking), nobody got bailed out, we had mild deflation results which is the natural state of the economy with a robust and rising productivity.

Remember, countries that wanted to go to war, the first thing they did was suspending gold convertibility and imnposing price control and shortages on its citizens inflating the money supply.......people that are really for peace and an environmentally sustainable world should support the gold standard...it prevents overconsumption and out of control, frivolous military spending (sounds familiar??)

Gold as monetary medium with its limited supply "mimic" the limited availability of resources encouraging rational and productive use of them.

Forever expanding money suply first of all it's a mathematical impossibility in a finite world and it encourages waste, corruption, cronysm....nothing new, it has always been like that for centuries...fiat currencies are not the invention of the last 40 years.....Voltaire once famously said "Paper money always returns to its intrinsic value...zero"


The Gold Standard, especially coupled with full reserve banking, makes the financial sytem extremely stable and robust, crisis are extremely rare and brief, balance of payments unbalances between countries are impossible or short lived.

You know why you never heard of the depression of 1921?? (peak-to-through decline was worse than the great depression) Because within 18 months was all over, the the economy got back to full employment, nobody got bailed out, money supply was steady and the government balanced the budget.



Since the de-linking of gold in 1971, the world has seen financial crisis of increased frequency and magnitude and most of the income and wealth gains have been increasingly concentrated at the top.......and this has always been the case with fiat currency regimes in the history of the world.


Some of these "economists" will tell you that the gold standard would "choke" innovation....a bunch of bollocks, both under the classic Gold Standard of the 19th century and the Bretton Woods Gold exchange system (which lasted until 1971) the world as seen a burst of innovation never experienced before....airplanes, cars, electricity, electronics, computers, nuclear energy, the agriculture revolution, medicine, the space program, the internet, etc...the industrial revolution happened under the silver and gold standard.


I don't know of a single respectable academic economist (although, granted, that is not saying much), either a public figure or a professor I had, that believed that the benefits of a gold standard outweigh the costs.


Ok let's play the game...a little dose of reality here....just to mention few..

Recent study of the Bank of England, not some crazy gold bugs

"Reform of the International Monetary and Financial System"

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/fsr/fs_paper13.pdf

Some quotes: "The incidence of banking crises in the non-gold-standard period is higher than the incidence in the two gold periods."

"Overall the gold standard appeared to perform reasonably well against its financial stability and allocative efficiency objectives,”

Robert Zoellick, former president of the World Bank....not your average nutcase

"Zoellick seeks Gold Standard debate"

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/eda8f512-eaae-11df-b28d-00144feab49a.html#axzz2mYHYEpDp

"“The system should also consider employing gold as an international reference point of market expectations about inflation, deflation and future currency values.”

"“Although textbooks may view gold as the old money, markets are using gold as an alternative monetary asset today.”

Robert Barro, founder of new classical macroecononomics and Senior Fellow at the Stanford Hoover Institution


"Gold Returns" by Robert J. Barro and Sanjay P. Misra, National Bureau of Economic Research

http://www.nber.org/papers/w18759

Not to mention a couple Nobel prize winners like Friedrich Hayek and Robert Mundell, father of the Euro

Robert Mundell "Gold Convertibility to save the Euro"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2011/06/13/the-emerging-new-monetarism-gold-convertibility-to-save-the-euro/

...and I could go on and on....

Obviously if you follow only Keynesian economists and monetarist cranks that never see a bubble or a crisis even when it stares in their face, you will find a lot of hostility against gold...same for crony capitalist extraordinarie like Warren Buffet & Co which have all to gain from an "inflatable" money supply.


You may want to have a good laugh here watching this video where Krugman makes a fool of himself debating Ron Paul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEmKIRqz9AI

Once he lost so badly, he cried baby in his blog with a post titled "on the uselessness of debates"...what a crank..

Do some research on who pays the studies and research papers of many of these "economists".......and after that order a copy of "Currency Wars" by James Rickards, still a New York TImes best seller even after 2 years...that is a good starting point if you want to really learn about economics...once you are a bit "techied up" you can start read the blog Zerohedge.com, hands down the best blog in finance.

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Ross Ashcroft says in the q&a that he does not propose we go back to gold standard, it was just to illustrate how money and value used to work

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Gold standart is idiotic. it's much better that money is created and destroyed democratically, than it is to tie money on something like gold.

When money is created democratically, then the money could be tied to ALL resources, not just one (gold). Think about a situation where something like a hospital need's be built and there is all the resources to do that. Then the people could democratically decide to create new money to built that hospital, when in gold standart you would have to wait that someone goes to mine that gold...and that someone isn't going to give you that gold for free is he?

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