MovieChat Forums > The Calling (2014) Discussion > Another anti-Christian movie.

Another anti-Christian movie.


Just watched this. Of course with rabid atheist and left-wing nut Susan Sarandon. No surprise there. Whats funny is the imdb link number is 1666335. LOL God s trying to tell us something.

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Thank you for that righteously astute commentary.
I have now seen the light!

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You're absolutely right!! It's a shame that in America--a country whose denizens self-identify as 90% religious and of those more than 90% as Christian--that Christianity continues to be under attack!! We can't say "Merry Christmas" anymore, no, now it's "Happy Holidays". It isn't a "Christmas Tree", nope, now it's a "Seasonal Winter Conifer"!!

And look at Western Europe; sure, for the most part, they may have better, more comprehensive socialised medicine, a strong currency fast replacing the American Dollar, a higher standing of living, lower suicide and homicide rates, more progressive politics and societies, and they take better care of their infirmed, weak and elderly, and they are quickly surpassing the U.S. in terms of technology, education and cooperative sciences, BUT WHERE IS GOD?!?! America still boasts the highest church attendance and belief in god amongst what one may consider to be the modern, civilised world!!
AND THEY REFUSE TO TEACH "CREATIONISM" OR "INTELLIGENT DESIGN" ALONG WITH THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION!!

This is America dammit! A nation, while not conceived of and created by Christians (most of the Founding Fathers considered themselves desists; id est, god flicked on the light switch, lit the candle, what-have-you, and walked away), has certainly been taken over and co-opted by the Christians of the far-right since.


But seriously, that any criticism of or non-pandering to your certain brand and interpretation of Christianity (even amongst yourselves you cannot agree on whom it is that goes to Heaven... besides the Care Bears) is looked upon as an "attack" shows just how little faith you actually have and how weak your belief system truly is.


Spoiler Alert: When you die... Nothing happens! You aren't whisked away to some magical cloud city populated by the very few who look like you and believe what you do. You aren't reunited with your dead grandparents and your dog, Spike. Nothing happens (and I'm okay with that! Atheism doesn't remove motivation or significance from life; on the contrary, it gives life--the here and now--meaning and it allows you true freedom. Freedom from willful ignorance and the perpetual state of fear that religions thrive on, freedom from the artificial restraints of an antiquated and asinine morality from a ludicrously obsolete and superstitious era, and it forces you to enjoy and make the most of what time you do have. Importantly, it demands that you take responsibility for your life and your actions. And morality? If the only reason that you act in the "moral" manner in which you do is because of a three thousand year old tome and fear of eternal punishment in a lake of fire... then how moral are you really?). Death: You blink out of consciousness and existence forever. And if that scares you and sends you into a downward existential spiral, then it is people like you for whom religion was created. And if you can't deal with that, if that truly terrifies you... then reconcile your existence with yourself!.




**EDIT: Added the colour blue to draw attention to my true feelings on the matter and make my sarcasm a bit more obvious without having to resort to "winky faces" or the like. Many thanks to Dejay.**



something terribly clever.

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[deleted]

Wow, that's what you latched onto?






something terribly clever.

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As someone who is a political scientist with an MA in International Relations (granted, my concentration and expertise is the Middle East and though I've taken courses in International Economics, I am not an Economist), the Euro remains stronger than the US Dollar; the current exchange rate is 1US$=1.34EU.

Although, I consider myself to be a "religious person" (I am a Muslim), I found myself in agreement with much of the rebuttal to the OP. Religion is a personal matter (problem) and does not belong in the public sphere. Notice when religion was the public constant in Europe, the continent was encapsulated in "The Dark Ages," while the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment occurred once religion was relegated to the private sphere, beginning in Florence with the De Medicis. In essence, the West, and in particular, the US thrived once secularism became dominant. Western civilization possesses its freedom despite religion, not because of it.

Contrary to most ignorant opinions, the majority of Middle Eastern countries have secular political establishments, with 80% of the entire Muslim population living outside of the Middle East (thank God). As an anecdote, there is anything correlation between the region and religiosity, i.e. from west to east corresponds to the degree of progressiveness. In other words, North Africa being the most liberal extending to the Gulf countries which are the most conservative. Incidentally, it is these conservative countries which are also the most restrictive regarding rights. This is because political authorities have learned to use religion as a mechanism to pacify the populace. Despite the fact that when sharia was first developed, it was designed to "provide and safeguard the rights of the individuals." Now, it's employed to protect the status quo and control the masses. Niccolo Machiavelli suggested to Princes in his pivotal text "The Prince" that the most invaluable tool at the disposal of the King is religion, and encourages the ruler to expound religion upon his subjects, as religion inherently demands unquestionable obedience to hierarchical authority figures, i.e. Popes, Pastors, Sheikhs, Rabbis, etc.

The US is the Saudi Arabia of Western civilization, but had it not been for the more enlightened camp, we would be subjugated to Christian sharia (religious law). A Christian sharia is exactly what the Right is advocating and attempting to install; prohibiting abortion, same-sex marriage, etc. American Christians are attempting to impose their religious views upon society by influencing legislation to reflect their weltaanchaung, causing a devolution in America. It was then Christian South that vehemently supported the most inhumane method of slavery practiced in modern history, alongside Brazil, restrictions on sufferage laws predicated upon gender and race, and used the Bible to justify racism and Jim Crow laws.

Though, I am a Muslim, I will not excuse nor ignore the atrocities committed by psychopaths under the banner of Islam. Where as, there are several different passages contained in the Qur'an (which out numbers the Bible) speaking favorably regarding Christianity, Judaism, and other religions; these sociopaths misinterpret verses which applied towards a specific spacial-time prism and demographics, extending it towards a general populace in order to justify their prejudices and hatred. Islam specifically condemns the killing of civilians, yet somehow these murderers find a way to justify it with religion.
Let's not forget that Muhammad created and implemented what many objectivehistorians cconsider the world's first constitution called "Ad-Dustour Al Madinah" ("The Constitution of Madinah") which states the Arab Christian, Jewish, and Muslims are a single community, each religion has the right to be protected and practice their faith in accordance with their faith.
It's interesting that religion projects superiority, while simultaneously creating the uber-victim. It permits its adherence to discriminate against others, while adopting the role of victim, and an us vs. them outlook. Again, I am a Muslim, but I am a US veteran and work with federal and local law enforcement agencies (like millions of other American-Muslims) to combat Muslim extremists. In the unlikely scenario that a Muslim nation were to attempt an invasion of the US, I (along with millions of other American Muslims) would pick up arms and fight alongside my non-Muslim countrymen.

Sadly, the most altruistic, humane, and ethical people I've come into contact have been atheists and/or agnostics. Had I not possessed the initial essence of what Islam is intended, i.e. unity and respect of humankind, I would be an agnostic. Those who loudly profess their religion and attempting to install it up on the masses are the bane of society.

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Excellent post, tmustafa, although I did have to look up "weltaanchaung" - seems the more common spelling is "Weltanschauung"...

I think more Muslims would be accepted in a majority Christian society (such as the US) if they denounce the Muslim extremists, as you have done in this post.

I personally am somewhere between a Deist and a Theist (NOT an atheist - I hate how those two sound so similar).

But thanks for the good, intelligent read there. Cheers,

---
Into every life a little coffee must spill.

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Oh, please. Quit self-victimizing. I'm a Christian and you're whole rant complete falsehoods.

You can't say Merry Christmas anymore? Says who? Just because businesses try to be more inclusive of everyone (you know not EVERYONE is a Christian, right?) by saying Happy Holidays or whatever doesn't mean you're "not allowed" to do anything.

I hope this was a parody post if not ... frightening.

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Me? Yes, that was absolutely me attempting to be facetious. Sorry if that wasn't obvious (it's hard to pull off sarcasm online).


something terribly clever.

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http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law

Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing.
:)

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Does the colour blue help?


Thought it might draw attention to my true feelings on the matter. That and I see that the Spoiler box makes things a bit confusing as well (I prefer the old style of Spoiler Alert; this new one makes comments look like a redacted government report).



something terribly clever.

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THANK YOU. The "War on Christmas" is a f&*$!$g JOKE. I used to work in retail a few years back and we were given the go-ahead to wish people however we wanted. Some of my coworkers still said, "merry Christmas" but I decided to go for "Happy Holidays." 1 in 5 people would stop in their tracks and look at me like I was the anti-christ. And I celebrate Christmas. No 'big bad' was forcing me to take Christ out of the season. It was my choice to be inclusive of everyone that came in, without forcing MY beliefs on them.

Plus, I like Happy Holidays because, to me, includes New Year's as well. People just like to get worked up over nothing...thanks Fox news.

___
everyone deserves one good scare.

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People just like to get worked up over nothing...thanks Fox news.


Well put. That is so so true...

---
Into every life a little coffee must spill.

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Christianity isn't under attack, mocked, disrespected, or ridiculed by Hollywood, or anyone for that matter. It's Christians that people can't stand anymore. CHRISTIANS.

People generally don't have a problem with Islam for example. The Qur'an is pretty interesting to be fair. However a small number of Muslims are painting an entire religion in the wrong light. Christianity has exactly the same problem. A small number of vocal obsessive nut-jobs that are turning people off not just Christianity, but religion for ever.

I'd rather walk a thousand miles barefoot than sit in a car full of vocal Christians for ten minutes, and I'm a curious agnostic. Not Atheist.

You guys have only yourselves to blame.

...and don't point your fooking tentacles at me! ~District 9

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[deleted]

Are you just ignorant-retarded

Is that even a phrase? Ignorant-retarded? Well. You certainly put me in my place. You Christians are just so...lovely. Feel educated now, thanks.

Surprised Christian and Islamic extremists aren't the best of pals to be honest. Your both close minded bigots, with absolutely zero tolerance for any ideals outside of your own. Match made in Heaven.

(Best make that 100,000 miles, and 30 seconds).

...and don't point your fooking tentacles at me! ~District 9

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[deleted]

"Should Christians Support Israel?"

David Duke - David Ernest Duke (born July 1, 1950) is an American White nationalist, writer, right-wing politician, and a former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan,[5][6] and former Republican Louisiana State Representative.

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"The Qur'an is pretty interesting to be fair." Sorry, while this is a Christian topic, I have to chip in.

I disagree about the Qur'an. I think you haven't read the whole Qur'an and just read portions that some muslims presented to you...
The Qur'an is pretty bad, and I speak from experience. In Al-Fatihah itself (this is a chapter that is repeated over and over everytime you pray), Allah asks you to be his slave. He wants you to be his slave and to do anything he says because you know, he's God, and you owe him alot. This slave mentality is one of the things that makes muslims so hard to realizing how bad its other teachings, such as:
1. Women are lower than men (e.g: in inheritence, women have lower portion than men, strike your wife if they disobey, men can have more than 1 wife, even the prophet itself have special treatment as he has more than 4 wives at a time, you can marry young girls as young as 9 year old)
2. non-muslims are bad (e.g: some jews & christians are like dogs, if you left Islam, you are the worst of human being, you are obligated to pay some special taxes if you're non muslims)
3. Only small portions of us will go to heaven. Even in Islam itself, there's only a select few who will enter the heaven. There's even a saying that there will be 72 of sects in Islam that will go to hell, and only one will go to heaven. Let alone us non-muslims. But this is just a scare tactics so that people will follow Islam. If you have a low self esteem or a coward or someone who's not that smart, you will tend to follow Islam. Oh, Islam ask muslims to brainwash their children at a young age. Even as to hit your kids if they're at least 7 year old and they don't pray 5 times a day. So this is one of the reasons why Muslims is hard to open their eyes. They've been brainwashed since kids.
4. It's ok to lie if necessary. This is used by many Muslims to spread lies like the miracles in Islam, hiding bad facts of Islam and just show parts of it that sounds good, etc... Their reasoning was, if lying makes people accept Islam and save them from Hell, then it's all good.

I'm glad I'm no longer a muslim. Being gay makes me realize how crappy this religion is. I'm pretty sure there are many of bad things in Christianity itself, but I'm not an expert, and I'll let others to comment about that.

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You have absolutely no idea regarding the Qur'an, otherwise you wouldn't be making such incorrect statements. My M.A. is in Middle East Politics, and I'm able to read and comprehend the Qur'an (which is only considered to be in Arabic).

I make the following challenges to you:

1. Where in Surah Al-Fatihah does it mention slaves?
2. The term "abd" for servant is one employed in endearment. For instance, the verse that states "so enter amongst my servants, enter in my Paradise." The tone employed is one of extreme love.
3. Provide a Quran'ic verse stating non-Muslims are dogs, or less than dogs! On the contrary, the Qur'an actually speaks favorably concerning Christians and Jews.There are numerous passages in the Qur'an teaching tolerance: "Verily those closest to you in faith are Christians, for there are among them priests who are without arrogance, and their eyes swell with tears when they hear the Words of God." Also, the Qur'an says in two other areas to stress its emphasis; "Verily, those who are believers, Christians, Jews, and Sabians who says 'our Lord is Allah' on the Day of Judgment they shall be pleased with their Lord and shall have no fear." Yet, another verse states, "Verily, had Allah not checked one group of people with another, there would be numerous churches, mosques, and synagogues wherein the name of Allah is remembered much torn down." This verse places the status of non- Muslims places of worship equal to that of Muslims. Another verse says, "O Mankind, We created you from a single male and female (Adam and Eve, showing mankind's brotherhood) and separated you into nations and tribes so that you will become intimately familiar with one another. Verily, the BEST AMONG YOU IN THE EYES OF ALLAH ARE THOSE WHO ARE CONSCIENCE OF ALLAH." Notice the verse does not say you must be Muslim, just conscience of God, while there is not a single Biblical verse which speaks favorably of other faiths. The Bible even commands the "honor killings" of children who worship other gods, and dishonor their parents and priests.
"You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist. (Zephaniah 2:12-15 NLT)

After Joshua died, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Which tribe should attack the Canaanites first?" The LORD answered, "Judah, for I have given them victory over the land." The leaders of Judah said to their relatives from the tribe of Simeon, "Join with us to fight against the Canaanites living in the territory allotted to us. Then we will help you conquer your territory." So the men of Simeon went with Judah. When the men of Judah attacked, the LORD gave them victory over the Canaanites and Perizzites, and they killed ten thousand enemy warriors at the town of Bezek. While at Bezek they encountered King Adoni-bezek and fought against him, and the Canaanites and Perizzites were defeated. Adoni-bezek escaped, but the Israelites soon captured him and cut off his thumbs and big toes. Adoni-bezek said, "I once had seventy kings with thumbs and big toes cut off, eating scraps from under my table. Now God has paid me back for what I did to them." They took him to Jerusalem, and he died there. The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem and captured it, killing all its people and setting the city on fire. (Judges 1:1-8 NLT)

"Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town. They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.' Then all the men of the town must stone him to death. In this way, you will cleanse this evil from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21 NLT)
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21 NAB
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Regarding the jizya, Western Christian societies taxed Jews far more excessively than Muslims. Another challenge to you, try to justify the "Jewish Tax," the Jewish Port Tax, the Leibzoll, Tolerance Tax, Opferpfennig, etc. All taxation systems imposed upon Jews by Western Christian countries which exceeded the jizya. Additionally, according to the Islamic jurisprudence text "Reliance of the Traveler" non-Muslims were permitted and often received charity from the jizya, just as Muslims pay the zakah (poor tax), even at our local mosque charity is provided to non-Muslims. Reliance of the Traveler also states, "It is collected with leniency and politeness, as all debts, and is not levied on women, children, or the insane (pg. 608). The text continues, "It is obligatory for the caliph to protect those of them who are in Muslim lands just as he would Muslims, and to seek the release of those of them who are captured." So, within the Muslim world, dhimmiyun were nit singled out to pay taxes, even Muslims did so. Unlike the Christian West, the Jews dud not receive any benefit from their taxes.

If Christians and Jews are so evil, then why are Muslim men permitted to marry Christian and Jewish women, with the condition that they do not impose Islam upon them? Muslim scholars are unanimous that when a Muslim male marries a Christian/Jewish woman he is obligated to provide a home environment made comfortable for her to practice her faith and is considered "oppressive" if he attempts to convert her. When I married my wife, who was a Christian at the time, I refused to even explain Islam to her. I told her that if she wanted to learn about Islam, then she can read among the selection of books in our private library (which I also stocked with books written about Christianity by Christians). After conducting her own research, she eventually converted to Islam a couple of years later. However, I was not told she did so until afterwards. Additionally, why are Muslims obligated to honor their parents, even if they are Christians or Jews. Surely, a religion which despises Christianity or Judaism would also instruct its converted adherents to disassociate themselves from their parents. I recall during my childhood, that I had friends who were Jehovah's Witnesses, and they were forbidden from interacting with those who were of other faiths, even relatives.
4. In virtually every society, a girl has been determined as entering marriageable age upon her first menstrual period. The age for Aisha has never been determined, but if she had her first period then it would have been considered normal. Even as late as the 16th century, we find the Vatican Church issuing Bulls (Papal Orders) validating marriages of girls as young as 12 years of age, as long as they had their periods. In the US, a US Senator Daniel Sickles who was 33 years of age married a 15 year old name Teresa Bagioli, which was considered perfectly normal. Since primordial time, men have always favored girls as the concept of age differed significantly. An many civilizations an unmarried 18 year old girl was considered a "hag." Particularly, considering people died much earlier than in contemporary period, additionally, because child birth was considered a deadly act, it was preferable to conceive at a youthful (i.e. strong) age to increase the probability of survival. This also relates towards inheritance: in many cultures, the males are responsible for the maintenance of women. Therefore, the distribution of inheritance was not a result of male superiority, rather it was specifically related to taking care of the family. This was a responsibility, not a privilege. We even see in contemporary Western societies when a woman receives an inheritance from a deceased spouse and remarries. How many anecdotes are there that the man turns out to be a swindler and takes the woman's possession? I worked for child support for over a decade, and the sad reality is that I have witnessed countless women choose the new man in her life above her children. I'm not suggesting that all women fit within this prism, nor that women inherently possess poor decision making skills. However, with a separate family member involved who has everyone's best interest in mind, protects the family. Let's face it, even in Western civilization, "it's a man's world."
5. Concerning multiple wives: Again, this is nothing abnormal. In many societies plural marriages were the constant rather than the norm, particularly in the Middle East. In fact, I have Christian friends from Ethiopia who have numerous wives. The remarkable aspect concerning Islam is that it placed a limit to how many wives a man can have, whereas previously in Arab society a limit did not exist. Moreover, there were conditions imposed upon men which did not previously exist; the man must provide for each wife in equal manner. It isn't like the television series "Sister Wives" where all live underneath a single roof. In Islam, each wife must be provided her own house, automobile, etc. Whatever, you provide for one, you must provide in equal measure for the other(s), again a regulation placed which did not previously exist. In essence, Islam made polygamy more "humane" for women by placing conditions and responsibilities upon the men. This makes perfect since, as a social scientist, I was evaluating US history during the First and Second World Wars. What I've noticed (along with sociologists) is that an increase of illegitimate children were produced. As there was a shortage of available single men, women often resulted to engaging in extramarital affairs with married men. These children often went without having fathers due to the stigma associated with extra relationships and men were under no obligation to provide for these children, there's also a direct correlation with an increase of crime 15-50 years later. The reality is that some men will always have extramarital relationships and children will be produced as a result. In many circumstances, these children will not have the father present in their lives, and corpus research supports that two parent homes are healthier for children than a single parent. There is no coincidence that in societies where polygamy is permitted, there is less juvenile delinquency, this is even substantiated in the US among Mormon families.
You are sorely misguided regarding your misunderstanding of marriage in Islam. The woman is not deemed inferior to men, the Qur'anic verse states "men have a degree over women," but this degree pertains to responsibility not superiority, as I will prove by quoting Muslim scholars, the following is taken from islamqa.com which is a website whereby Muslim scholars ask questions posed to them. Mind you, these are Muslim scholars answering questions which were posed to them from other Muslims, eliminating the excuse that this is Islamic propaganda:

1 – The Qur’aan enjoins good treatment of one's wife: she is to be honoured and treated kindly, even when one no longer feels love in one's heart towards her. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “and live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allaah brings through it a great deal of good” [al-Nisa’ 4:19]

2 – The Qur’aan explains that women have rights over their husbands, just as their husbands have rights over them. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And they (women) have rights (over their husbands as regards living expenses) similar (to those of their husbands) over them (as regards obedience and respect) to what is reasonable, but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allaah is All-Mighty, All-Wise”

[al-Baqarah 2:228]

This verse indicates that the man has additional rights, commensurate with his role as protector and maintainer and his responsibility of spending (on his wife) etc.

3 – The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) enjoined kind treatment and honouring of one’s wife, and he described the best of people as those who are best to their wives. He said: “The best of you are those who are the best to their wives, and I am the best of you to my wives.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 3895; Ibn Maajah, 1977; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

4 – The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) spoke beautiful word concerning kind treatment of one’s wife, stating that when the husband feeds his wife and puts a morsel of food in her mouth, he earns the reward of doing an act of charity. He said, “You never spend anything but you will be rewarded for it, even the morsel of food that you lift to your wife’s mouth.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6352; Muslim, 1628.

4 – And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Fear Allaah with regard to women, for you have taken them as a trust from Allaah and intimacy with them has become permissible to you by the words of Allaah. Your right over them is that they should not allow anyone to sit on your furniture whom you dislike; if they do that then hit them but not in a harsh manner. And their right over you is that you should provide for them and clothe them on a reasonable basis.” Narrated by Muslim, 1218.

What is meant by “they should not allow anyone to sit on your furniture whom you dislike” is that they should not allow anyone whom you dislike to enter your houses, whether the person disliked is a man or a woman, or any of the woman’s mahrams [close relatives to whom marriage is forbidden]. The prohibition includes all of them. From the words of al-Nawawi.

The hadeeth may be understood as meaning that a man has the right to hit his wife, in a manner that is not harsh and does not cause injury if if there is a reason for that, such as her going against his wishes or disobeying him.

This is like the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“As to those women on whose part you see ill‑conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allaah is Ever Most High, Most Great”

[al-Nisa’ 4:34]

If a woman rebels against her husband and disobeys his commands, then he should follow this method of admonishing her, forsaking her in bed and hitting her. Hitting is subject to the condition that it should not be harsh or cause injury. Al-Hasan al-Basri said: this means that it should not cause pain.

‘Ata’ said: I said to Ibn ‘Abbaas, what is the kind of hitting that is not harsh? He said, Hitting with a siwaak and the like. [A siwaak is a small stick or twig used for cleaning the teeth - Translator]

The purpose behind this is not to hurt or humiliate the woman, rather it is intended to make her realize that she has transgressed against her husband’s rights, and that her husband has the right to set her straight and discipline her.

6. I challenge you to provide a single Qur'anic verse which allows Muslims to lie to non-Muslims under general conditions. You will not be able to do such. Why?! There is nothing in Islam that permits Muslims to lie to non-Muslims! Muslims can lie during moments of warfare to deceive the enemy, the adage, "war is deception," is universal. the Qur'an says "Be truthful at all times, even if it is against yourselves." This invariably prohibits dishonesty at all times. Another verse says, "So avoid the uncleanliness of false idols, and avoid false statements" (22:30). It doesn't say "avoid false statements except to non-Muslims," rather it's a general prohibition against lying. You are misinterpreting "taqiyyah" which according to Muslim scholars is this: "during periods of religious oppression, Muslims are permitted to verbally deny their religion in order to preserve their life, while retaining Islam in their hearts." This is primarily a religious edict initiated with Shi'a Muslims, as it was conceived by Jaf'ar Al-Siddiq, a Shi'a scholar. The Shi'a comprise less than 20% of the entire Muslim demographic, hence this notion is not widely practiced. However, during periods such as the Spanish Inquisitions, the Crusades, etc this may have been relevant-since Muslims were either forced to renounce Islam or die. In Islam preservation of life is more important than anything else. For instance, Muslims are prohibited from eating port and drinking alcohol, however, if it is a matter of life or death, than the prohibition is lifted.

Yes, Muslims are instructed to indoctrinate their children with Islam. As a parent, every ideology passed towards children is indoctrination/brainwashing. If you teach you children that homosexuality is perfectly normal, despite this being the contrary since primordial times, this is also "brainwashing." To instruct children that men or women having sex with one another is natural, while a significant portion of society says otherwise is nothing less than brainwashing. Instilling traditional morals and ethics is considered "good parenting" it's only when those very ideals contradict another's way of life that it is classified as "brainwashing." Personally, I disagree with homosexuality. How a man can allow something poked up his rear end is beyond me. However, I do not believe that their rights or dignity should be denied because of their lifestyle, nor do I care what they do behind closed doors. Even the Qur'an condemns the act of homosexuality, not the inclination of emotions. If you believe that teaching your children that homosexuality is natural, then surely I (and any other parent)have the right to instill our sense of morality within our children-without it being misconstrued as "brainwashing."

It sounds to me that you are exceptionally ignorant of Islam, and decided to misconstrue the religion in order to justify your participation of indulging in a lifestyle which is not condoned in the religion. You could at least be honest and say you left the religion because you enjoy the same sex, rather than lying about the religion. Now, I challenge you to provide Qur'anic verses that substantiate ALL of your bogus claims which I explained away.

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Additionally, my Christian mother frequently boasts to her friends that I have become a far more dutiful son since I converted to Islam, and she will quickly defend Islam when she hears people attacking it.

The Qur'an instructs tolerance towards other faiths and people, especially Christianity and Judaism. Have you not considered why the Qur'an refers to Christianity and Judaism as "ahl al-kitab?" The meaning being "People of the Book." But, "ahl" actually means a "family" or a small group of people residing under the same roof in a family unit." While "kitab" literally means "book," in the theological construct it means "scriptural revelation." The insinuation is that Muslims, Christians, Jews, and other faiths are a family unit connected by God's guidance via revelation. Unlike other faiths, Islam teaches that God sent Prophets and Messengers to every nation, not just one, or a couple.

If you left Islam because you enjoy having other men ramming their penis inside your butt then just say it. Don't create and disseminate lies about an entire religion just to justify your lifestyle.

P.S. I intentionally used that phrase regarding "ramming" in order to convey a particular sensitivity. As mentioned aforetime, I do not believe same sex individuals should be discriminated against in any fashion. Everyone deserves to be treated with equal dignity and respect.

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A degree in politics middle eastern or not does not qualify you as any kind of expert on religion.

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scuffpuppy
» Sun Aug 3 2014 14:55:45 Flag ▼

People generally don't have a problem with Islam for example.



Yeah sure go tell that to the families of dozens of victims who died in Europe from the hands of fanatic muslims you moron.


However a small number of Muslims are painting an entire religion in the wrong light.



No, it's not a small number anymore and it's not a wrong vision because they all think their vision is the right one and who's to say who's right or wrong ? No one is able to make the right translation and they all say they are the only true good muslims. So since when do you know better than them ? And of course they forget parts of the Qur'an that don't suit them. How convenient ! And they kill CHRISTIANS in Syria eveyday. "The Qur'an is pretty interesting to be fair" indeed mr happy go lucky dumbhead.

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That was brilliant. I've tried to express this many times and have never come close to doing it in such a way as you have. Well done.
Also, death scares the hell out of me, but I still have enough sense to realize that when we die, that is it. Religion wasn't made for people like me. Religion was made for people who are scared AND in denial that they will simply cease to exist one day.

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Though I may only be 31, I could use the rest that death offers; I've had a long and often arduous life. And as silly as it sounds, I recognize that the matter that comprises me used to be in the stars of the universe. That I find comforting. With any luck, a few billion years after my death, my matter will again be put to better use than I have made of it. Maybe the Law of Conservation of Matter is what "Life After Death" truly is; though my consciousness is utterly destroyed and gone, my carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and hydrogen atoms will again join this universe.



something terribly clever.

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"though my consciousness is utterly destroyed and gone"

You can say you believe this but you have no empirical evidence that it's true. Einstein opined that when it comes to the universe:

"We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."

But when we begin to wrap our brains around concepts like Young's interference experiment we begin to seriously reflect on concepts like Hugh Everett's many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics. That all subatomic particles may exist in a state of superposition and don't collapse into a single state until observed. Would the universe exist if no one was around to see it? What does that say about reality? Maybe before the big bang there only existed the idea of the big bang. Perhaps your consciousness is reality and also part of a greater consciousness.

Oh, and by the way, religion is a product of evolution.

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Hilarious and true.
But 90%? You have to substract all those who are religious for their community, family etc. Just saying it doesn't make it so. Religious people own lying, they do it all the time while keeping up appearences. But should we care? Let them have their playground of self-deceit, who cares? It only gets bad when they try to hurt others that won't lie along. Open up your news channel. Because funny thing is, the more you try to point this out the harder they come back at you, doubt creates fear and agression. Give it time and after a few generations this will all be straightened out. One downside, we won't be around to celebrate.
But then again, there's this urge to educate like Richard Dawkins, to hasten the process. To me, I'm afraid, that's mostly just preaching to the choir.

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poiler Alert: When you die... Nothing happens! You aren't whisked away to some magical cloud city populated by the very few who look like you and believe what you do. You aren't reunited with your dead grandparents and your dog, Spike. Nothing happens (and I'm okay with that! Atheism doesn't remove motivation or significance from life; on the contrary, it gives life--the here and now--meaning and it allows you true freedom. Freedom from willful ignorance and the perpetual state of fear that religions thrive on, freedom from the artificial restraints of an antiquated and asinine morality from a ludicrously obsolete and superstitious era, and it forces you to enjoy and make the most of what time you do have.


Yes, No doubt Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and the leaders of North Korea agree with you.

Importantly, it demands that you take responsibility for your life and your actions. And morality? If the only reason that you act in the "moral" manner in which you do is because of a three thousand year old tome and fear of eternal punishment in a lake of fire... then how moral are you really?). Death: You blink out of consciousness and existence forever. And if that scares you and sends you into a downward existential spiral, then it is people like you for whom religion was created. And if you can't deal with that, if that truly terrifies you... then reconcile your existence with yourself!.



Strawman much? Honestly if this facile, ignorant, un-informed and sophomoric reasoning is the best argument you can offer, then I will stick to being a Christian.

'Queens Conquer'

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I suppose the easiest way to point out how fallacious, spurious, hypocritical and terrifyingly uninformed your argument is would be to list atrocities carried out by Christians, especially those done in the name of their god: The siege and subsequent sack of Constantinople (a Christian city, sacked by Christians) during the 4th Crusade (hell, consider all of those killed during 200 years of Crusades), the various Inquisitions (Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada set fire to as many as 10,000 heretics himself; now that is feeling the Light of God!), the forced and bloody conversion to Christianity of the indigenous peoples (killing millions) of North and South America, Africa, India and anywhere else godless (or multi-goded) heathens and infidels happened to live. And not only were these people tortured, raped, robbed, brutalised and murdered--afforded no quarter, no regard given to their age or sex--their cultures denigrated and destroyed, but their souls are also damned to all the wonderful eternal torments in Hell. It doesn't matter if they were good, ethical, virtuous people; they worshipped the wrong guy in the sky, hence they suffer in Hell for all eternity.

And let us not forget that even amongst Christians there has been a fair amount of... disagreement (inevitably and invariably leading to bloodshed) over the years. Take the half-dozen or so wars between Catholic Spain and France and Anglican England. Sure, there were other more secular, materialistic considerations, but to rouse and rally the rabble to the cause and take up arms, these religious differences were played up. These are just a few examples of the top of my (godless) head.

And if these body counts aren't equal to those of modern day "atheist" tyrants, it isn't for lack of trying, it's simply because the technologies to massacre people quickly, efficiently and in tremendous, unfathomable numbers did not yet exist. And as you brought up Hitler, the Catholic Church willingly turned a blind eye to the Holocaust, and in a crass move of self preservation, signed a treaty (the Reichskonkordat) with Nazi Germany.

But I'm not going to do that, to play into your hands by pointing out the atrocities of Judeo-Christian god-fearing people. Nor will I insult you and your knowledge of your own religion, as I'm sure that you are well aware of all the blood that your god has on his hands; going so far as to personally order the destruction of entire people (the Canaanites for one), the enslavement of others, the rape of their women and girls, and the slaughter of their livestock. And if the argument is made that "Well, that's the Old Testament god", where and why is there such an about-face? Where is the consistency? Did god just learn to loosen up? Was it having children that caused him to do so? (Having kids certainly does lead to a reevaluation of one's priorities) Even in the New Testament, Jesus could be quick with a witty, threatening rejoinder, "I came to bring fire to the earth and how I wish it were already kindled! Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division". That's somewhere in Luke, to save you from having to peruse the entire thing, as if you haven't already done so. When your entire belief system is predicated on just one book, it shouldn't be too hard to have the whole thing covered (what I believe is based on dozens and dozens of books, written by wiser men than I; therefore--and unlike Christians--I needn't make a pretense out of picking and choosing what to believe, what best suits my situation and circumstance).

No, if your argument is that without a god there can exist no morality, then I think you've failed to realise that, save for the occasional sociopath, there is a moral compass within everyone. We needn't quiver and quake before a vain and insecure god to be able to differentiate right from wrong (do realise that the Ten Commandment are about 50% useless when it comes to guiding one's morality; they're mainly informing you not to worship statues, to set aside a day just for him, not to combine his name with some form of hilarious vulgarity and the like. Oh, and they also put women on the level of chattel). People learn how to behave by the society around them. They learn that we've collectively entered into a Hobbesian social contract, trading absolute freedom (a state of nature) for the safety and opportunities afforded by an organised society. Man has been called a rational being, but rationality is a matter of choice—and the alternative his nature offers him is: rational being or suicidal animal. Man has to be man—by choice; he has to hold his life as a value—by choice; he has to learn to sustain it—by choice; he has to discover the values it requires and practice his virtues—by choice. A code of values accepted by choice is a code of morality.

Ethics is an objective, metaphysical necessity of man’s survival. It presupposes nothing (at least nothing on the scale of an all-knowing, all-powerful god; one who is capable of solving all the world's ills with the snap of a finger, the twitch of a nose, the I-Dream-of-Genie-head-nod. Then why not do so? Free will is one thing, but not allowing over a billion people access to potable water, food, and medical care is quite another. When you could end the tremendously high infant mortality rates of entire regions of the world without breaking a sweat, why wouldn't you. I can safely suppose that as a decent, moral person you certainly would, so why doesn't your god? Ah, yes. The lord works in mysterious ways....). Ayn Rand was a self-avowed atheist, yet she knew what ethical, moral behaviour was: “What is morality? Judgment to distinguish right and wrong, vision to see the truth and courage to act upon it, dedication to that which is good, integrity to stand by the good at any price.” It is absolutely subjective, but so are the various interpretations of the Bible of different sects of Christianity, and even that judgment of morality changes based on expediency or circumstance. In the Crusades it was the duty of a "good" Christian to kill an infidel, but I doubt that you would run around cutting down Muslims left and right. So is it the fear of the Lord or fear of the Law that prevents you. Or more substantially, is it because that your own personal, internal morality, shaped by the sum total of the experiences of your life tells you that it's wrong? If not, if there were another "Crusade", would you be among the first to sign up for it? How's that for fallacious logic.


So do tell, what was my "straw man", how did I misrepresent (what has become) your argument, your position? Where does "my" logic fail? How would you behave if there were not the promise of eternal reward or eternal punishment dangled before you? Is it fear of the Lord or fear of the Law that governs your behaviour (or a bit of both, or more of one than the other)?







Self-interest is immutable, but its dictates vary daily.


something terribly clever.

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Oh my goodness. Unbelievable.

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fx-danie l-sahyounie-x.tumblr.com%2Fpage%2F2&h=0&w=0&tbnid=7naMw80H L12B7M&zoom=1&tbnh=168&tbnw=300&docid=WPWV0LSaoAnYtM&a mp;tbm=isch&ei=LxQFVOPQMaHg8AGmtICoBA&ved=0CAIQsCUoAA

Time to (Matthew 7:6) and update my ignore list.

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We are actually in agreement, it is "unbelievable"...

In lieu of an actual thinking man's conversation, you proffer a "face-palm" .gif (a truly witty riposte and unbeatable, unassailably logical counter) and add me to your "Ignore List". I think that you're putting a silk bow on that sow.



Afraid that you might be wrong, afraid to be torn to pieces, or are you simply unable to come up with an answer or retort like an adult? A simple tl;dr would've sufficed....

1 Peter 3:15-16, 2 Timothy 3:16... or am I the serpent in Genesis? Afraid to taste knowledge?




Q.E.D





something terribly clever.

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savcam500 does make some points that you seem unwilling or unable to answer...

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savcam500 does make some points that you seem unwilling or unable to answer...


His 'points' are personal and poorly 'reasoned' opinions than anything else. With no basis in fact regarding Christian theology. The 'arguments' were facile, sophomoric and poorly thought out. I actually found it embarrassing to read and had to wonder how old this person was and if they had gainful employment.

Further I could clearly see by what was written not mention the condescending attitude that the person wasn't interested in having a serious discussion. Just ranting. Not worth the time or effort.









"Never mud wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty but the pig enjoys it."

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U can't prove it

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thanks, downloading now :)

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It wasn't anti-Christian at all. If you watched it as I just did, it clearly is pro-religion on a strange level as by the ending of the film.

It was a nice but somewhat disturbing movie but it worked.

The bad guy wasn't even bad in the context of the film. He was just considered a serial killer by the police.

http://www.youtube.com/user/alphazoom
https://soundcloud.com/#carjet-penhorn

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[deleted]

I don't think we watched the same movie- either that or you just went into this movie looking to be a martyr. How exactly was this movie 'anti-Christian'? If anything, had you grasped the plot, it is the opposite. I think just because the main character in this is an atheist made you decide this was anti-Christian even when nothing else in the movie ever portrayed an anti-Christian message. Is your faith so weak that all it takes to challenge it is one atheist character in a movie? That speaks volumes about you.

Spoilers-->By the end of the movie Susan Sarandon's character has clearly had a 'come to Jesus' moment. The fact that Simon's brother's body has disappeared proves that the prayer worked and that God must exist then. I am somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic depending on the day and I have no problem watching a movie that depicts the proof of God or a character finding faith again. Why and how could you be so challenged by a movie with a single atheist character? I mean, it's just a movie.




There's a shadow on you son.

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Spoilers-->By the end of the movie Susan Sarandon's character has clearly had a 'come to Jesus' moment. The fact that Simon's brother's body has disappeared proves that the prayer worked and that God must exist then.


I disagree there. It's a lame twist intended to indicate that, but it's far more logical to assume that the fanatical women or other fanatics removed the body. Why the police didn't remove it is ludicrous (keep it on the low rofl, because the fanatical women already knew so why?)

Also I didn't get the feeling that the sheriff had a "come to jesus" moment, she was suicidal but found her low point. She just decided she wants to live. There are a lot of positive messages in religions, and what the mad priest said might have helped her realize that she wants to live, but that doesn't mean she went back to believing in fairy tales.

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You're right, there's a very good chance that the fanatics are the ones who removed the body(which is what I personally think happened) but I think the filmmakers left it ambiguous on purpose so the audience can't be sure one way or another. I also wondered why the body wasn't removed by law enforcement and it would have made a better plot point(and more interesting) to have them remove it and then have the body disappear from the morgue. That way the audience is wondering if he resurrected or did the fanatics steal him from the morgue?

I think just having the Sheriff deciding to live after being close to suicidal(or at least apathetic towards living) the rest of the movie was her 'come to Jesus' moment. We don't know if she's has also gone back to being religious or not as the audience. The movie ends before we get to be sure how she feels about that but we do see a euphoric smile on her face that she never had a hint of through the rest of the movie. That made me personally think that she believes in God again- whether or not she believes in an organized religion is up for debate to me. I say all this as my opinion of the film and I say it as an atheist.



There's a shadow on you son.

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I can't imagine this movie would have worked if it referenced any other religion simply because Christianity is so familiar to its audience. Even if not Christian most people are certain to recognise its symbolism and understand the context.

Besides, the only people who would care or view it as being anti-Christian are the staunch Christians. Many of us (non-practicing, non-Christian, agnostic, atheist) just see it as a work of fiction - crazy people and fanatics come from every walk of life and this one just happens to be Christian.

If films like these aren't made then it's probably indicative of a society that doesn't have much room for freedom of expression and religious tolerance. I'd rather live in one that does. There are a lot of bad things I could worry about but this is not one of them.

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Lol excellent and sharp points all around! Too bad people can't see the agenda !

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So let me get this straight, you stole a movie online well before its release, and you're here calling yourself a Christian? You must now pluck-out at least one eye... sorry.

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It's not out in theaters but the high def version is out already. It will probably get a limited run but it's not going to be a wide released film. I have not heard one thing about it until I saw it. There is no buzz about it either as far as I know.

http://www.youtube.com/user/alphazoom
https://soundcloud.com/#carjet-penhorn

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So wait for the DVD. Don't pirate it.

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But you do know that Jesus was a communist, yes?

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Well....they have to link the Latin phrase to something.

If you take religion completely out of the movie the bad guy would have no motive. The fact that he thinks he's doing a good thing is what makes it more interesting. If he was just an evil guy doing evil things and he thought that he would resurrect his brother it would make no sense unless there was a link to some sort of supernatural based reasoning, which would hardly be original.

The fact that the motive of the killer worked was what made the movie worth watching. I suppose they could have had a different ending and it not work...then it would be a typical Hollywood flick...just another religious nut job

http://www.youtube.com/user/alphazoom
https://soundcloud.com/#carjet-penhorn

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[deleted]

Interesting info. And I also liked the connection with euthanasia. The idea that a terminal patient, a person of sound mind who wants to end his own suffering is forbidden to do so is quite amoral.
Not just the law, but that you be threatened with eternal torture in hell! If Christianity would actually allow this "ritual" as depicted in the movie, it would actually make Christianity more acceptable to me. At least a tiny bit.

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I personally never saw him as a 'bad guy' or thought his actions were evil. Forcing people with terminal illnesses to live in misery and pain with absolutely no hope of being cured is the truly evil act. Performing euthanasia is as kind and merciful gesture that one can do. People have the right to determine when it should be over for themselves. It is irresponsible and cruel of us as a society to do otherwise.


There's a shadow on you son.

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[deleted]


Yeah, what they do is connecting Christianity with creepiness.



Yeah, and worshiping the graven image of a dead guy nailed to a *beeping* tree isn't creepy....

Is there not a more positive depiction of Jesus, from a more positive time in his life, that might be appropriate? It's not considered creepy at all for people to walk around with gold necklaces depicting the death of their lord and saviour dangling from their necks. Islam pretty much bypasses that whole issue altogether, and look at Buddha, all fat and happy and mellow....



something terribly clever.

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[deleted]