MovieChat Forums > ParaNorman (2012) Discussion > Disgusted! (A gay perspective.)

Disgusted! (A gay perspective.)


I'm actually a little bit disgusted by this whole discussion here.
I came on this blog to see what people where saying about this great film, and yes, I was also interested to see how people reacted to the joke at the end.
And even though i was expecting a few responses like this, boy am I surprised at the amount and the things being said.

People who are offended by this need to do one thing. You need to stop connecting the word homosexuality with sex in your mind, cause I'm convinced that is all people hear in your head is "sex sex sex sex sex! and react with "Hell no my kid isn't ready for this!". It's just a very technical term and has practically nothing to do with the reality of being gay at all.
Cause let me tell you what gay people actually do. Yes, you are right, gay people have sex with each other. but the other 98% of the time, the go do their job, go to the supermarket, watch TV, everything that every other person does as well. Gay people constantly get put away as lustful, sex addicts who do nothing else then obsess over sex. (As if lust and sex is suddenly the sole domain of the homosexual.) As a gay person I can tell you...we don't. Yes I do it, It's fun, I enjoy it, and I think I have a healthy attitude to it. but I can also think of a lot of other things I would rather do with 98% of my time.

Now the notion that being gay is a choice and that you are not born this way. First of all, If you have a question about this, who would you seriously ask? Would you ask the person who doesn't know any gay person personally and doesn't like gay people? Would you ask the person who could never imagine having an attraction to the same sex, or would you ask a person that is gay and went through the whole process themselves? Now personally I'd go for the last one, cause this person at the very least can talk from personal experience, and don't stick to one, but ask lots and lots of them. And guess what they'll tell you. The same thing I'm gonna tell you now. "Do you really think that we didn't try?" Growing up one way where the rest of the world all seems different is not an easy thing to do. We try and conform, Children and adults alike do this all the time. I tried it myself when I was younger. First I said "I won't be gay, I'll change it!" But after a couple of years you realize you can't, when the female form is about as erotically stimulating to you as a stale piece of bread. and then I said "Okay, I'll be gay, but I'll marry a woman and keep it a secret". That didn't last long, cause I'd realize not only would I be destroying my life, I would destroy the life of some poor woman as well, besides i don't like lying.
There is also no such thing as turning gay or straight.we may choose to act on our feelings later in life where we didn't do so before, you can't change your taste, Just as much as I can't suddenly decide to like coffee (I hate coffee!). And I can't help but point out that people who say gay people can turn straight must also acknowledge that that would imply that under the right circumstances that means that they could be turned gay. That knife cuts both ways. It is also interesting to note that people sometimes say it is a choice. However I also must point out that that reveals a lot more about themselves, then it does for the average gay person. Do they speak from personal experience? was it a choice for them not explore further their own same sex attractions, their own potential bi-sexuality. Because, how else could they then make such a claim?

We live in a society where more and more people choose to not lie, and live their life in the open. Just like I do with my partner of five years. Some of you here may call us sick and perverted and might even compare us to rapists and pedophiles. Even though we are two consenting adults that fell in love. Cause that is what being gay means, It mostly doesn't even have to do with sex. It means who you're attracted to, who you fall in love with. I've never been happier then I am now living my life in the open. And even though sometimes someone shouts something to me. Even though sometimes I might even get attacked for no more reason then walking down the street (it has happened). I will never lie about who and what I am. An where I felt I had to change before, I now am proud of who I am, and now feel it's the rest of the world that needs to change. And this is the reality we live in. You and your children are going to encounter gay people more and more in everyday life. And we are not going to go away, because guess what? You already know us! We are your teachers, your doctors, your friends, most certainly your family and maybe even your sons or daughters. We aren't spreading, and we aren't multiplying, we are just stopping and refusing to hide anymore for something we didn't have a hand in ourselves.

I can't help feeling very saddened by the responses to such a sweet little joke. That was just presented a something so trivial, so unimportant in the whole movie. And even more so when you realize that this is a movie about outcasts and what fear, prejudice and hatred could do to other people. I’m saddened that after sitting through a 90 minute film on this subject, there are still people that still don't seem to get it!

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Great response. I might not be gay, but I agree with everything you said, they people on this board have been terrible about this. What do you think about the people who claim their fine with the joke and gay people, but don't want their children to know about it.

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Well basically that to me shows such a person tolerates gay people, but deep down they still think there is something wrong with them. Cause we are not talking about gay pornography here, which would be sensible to protect your children from, but we're talking about a person, who in this case says he has a male partner. A comment that wouldn't have raised a single eyebrow if he would have talked about his girlfriend, but now that it's a boyfriend, then it suddenly becomes dirty and undecent, and the children should be protected from it...

The only reason I can think of that anybody would want to protect their children from the reality that some boys like girls and some boys like boys is because they find they idea of having a gay child so dreadful that they want to keep them blissfully unaware that such thing even exist. Because they're afraid they'll put the idea in their head, so to speak...

Utter nonsense...

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That's a good point!

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[deleted]

Speaking as a straight ally, I prefer to think of the term "Tolerate" or "Tolerance" in this context to mean "Accept without judgment something different from your personal norm". Just my 2 cents.

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fee_fur
Well basically that to me shows such a person tolerates gay people, but deep down they still think there is something wrong with them. Cause we are not talking about gay pornography here, which would be sensible to protect your children from, but we're talking about a person, who in this case says he has a male partner. A comment that wouldn't have raised a single eyebrow if he would have talked about his girlfriend, but now that it's a boyfriend, then it suddenly becomes dirty and undecent, and the children should be protected from it...

The only reason I can think of that anybody would want to protect their children from the reality that some boys like girls and some boys like boys is because they find they idea of having a gay child so dreadful that they want to keep them blissfully unaware that such thing even exist. Because they're afraid they'll put the idea in their head, so to speak...

Utter nonsense...



Shouldnt it be any pornography?






nfldpunk


We're everywhere and you don't even know it. Because we're just like you. And you're too blind to see either way.








maddie01
Hear, hear! 

To me, the greatest thing about scenes like this in movies is that it challenges that oh so easy tendency to think of everyone as straight until proven gay. And we all know happens when you assume... 

Breaking stereotypes, one "surprise!" gay reveal at a time.




Oh we need more of that espesically with straight acting gays and the queens need to finally come out Life with Boys Sam Nevel Peppermine ICarly



deaston

However, if I am taking my kids to a "kids" movie, I am expecting to not have to explain sexuality to ANY degree, much less abnormal sexuality. That's why a joke like that is shameless.





How is being gay abnormal?



deaston
scaryminds...
There are a lot of arguments one can make regarding homosexuality's place in our culture, but you can not deny that it is abnormal sexual behavior. If this hurts your feelings, you are being too sensitive. Of course it deviates from the norm, that is ridiculous to say otherwise



So your saying a child who has gay thoughts is wrong versus the child who is straight?



xscd

Regarding "abnormal sexual behavior," there are an awful lot of heterosexuals who practice and enjoy the same types of sex that homosexuals engage in, so I wouldn't "cast any stones" and condemn gays for that type of sexual activity. Besides, how each person enjoys sex is their business, not mine or yours.




thats what I dont get is gays get the heat the lesbians dont






jerryrip54
I don't have a problem with homosexuality in general. However it is a perverted behavior and against the will of God. That having been said, if gays want to do their thing in the privacy of their own bedroom, I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with, and I would say that 98% of heterosexuals do, is the constant flaunting in public of homosexual behavior and the constant drumbeat of the liberal media telling us that we have to accept EVERYTHING about homosexuality, including paying tax money for health care and other benefits for them and their "partners." I live in New Orleans, where there is a big gay proportion who live in the French Quarter. Every year the other residents of the French Quarter have to put up with a festival called Deacadence. In this celebration, homosexuals (mostly men) get to dress up in any way they want and perform any act (within the law that is) that they want ans parade on the streets. Why is that? Why do we as heterosexuals have to watch that? I thought that most gays like to keep to themselves anyway. And as far as gays trying to be like regular families and raise kids and such, that is one of the most destructive things to happen to America in years. I pray for this country avery day




the same reason you have the straights grind against eachother all the time since in your views thats normal behavior! Both can and do become too extreme



But gays are targeted more

why is that?

the gays that flaunt it yeah! Not all gays are flaming queens some are like Mitch who want to be honest and gay.


How is it not fluanting it when a guy is kissing two girls in the hallway? But two guys thats not acceptable behavior?



rgcustomer
I'm gay and I thought it was inappropriate. It can too easily be interpreted as yet another character who is stupid AND gay, which becomes stupid BECAUSE gay. Being gay was not integrated into this character's life. It was just a throwaway line. Put in context of the rest of the movie, that we should believe people who see things that aren't there, it's really a bad decision.

I can't believe GLAAD fell for it and actually nominated this as one of their outstanding films, on the basis of a single line, about nothing. It reeks of desperation.





How does it reek of desperation? It shows not all gay guys are flaming queens and are not always the best dressed and not always into girly things like Kurt from Glee!


HobieDoug
I finally watched "ParaNorman" last night (I liked it). I had read a little about the uproar. I kept waiting for the objectionable parts.

So, there's a one line joke that's actually more about Norman's sister than it is about the character being gay. What a tempest in a teapot!






yeah I know making it bigger then it is




fee_fur makes some great points. The church I attend is an official "Welcoming" church. There are only two in my community, which is in the middle of the Bible Belt. As such, our congregation has several gay members. I think visitors would be hard pressed to identify our gay members. They cover all age groups and socioeconomic standings. In other words, they are far more like the straight members of the congregation than they are different.





thats cool you can find your church community so accepting



It is a blessing to worship in such a community, to see how wrong the stereotypes help by many straight people are. BTW, my wife and I are conservative in many ways. We never seriously dated anyone else and have been faithfully married for 43 years. Some of our friends at church have been in a loving relationship for more than 30 years. I think it's high time that they can have that relationship recognized by matrimony if they so choose.




I agree to a point



dirp12
I personally wouldn't want my son (or daughter) to watch a movie made for children that makes light or even discusses homosexuality. Let em be kids for christs sake. Don't gotta expose them to everything so quickly. And yes, i would feel alot more comfortable with my children watching something sexually suggestive if it were heterosexual. Lets be honest, no one wants there kid to be gay.



in this intolerant world hell no!

Since its more acceptable to be lesbian not GAY

Yeah you would! Since he just happens to be gay!
















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So you spend 2% of your day (slightly over half an hour) every day having sex?

I have a feeling that's above the average


Anyway, I thought the joke was funny and think all children everywhere should hear it. Except for the ones that wouldn't understand it. That would just be a waste of a joke.

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alright make it 99% then...
Let's just say i can't complain.....

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What I like about the little joke in the end is how innocent it is. In no way do they attempt to say being gay is bad, or good even. He's just an average (though slightly dim) guy.

Throughout the movie we see he likes working out, he's into cars. He's a regular guy just like anyone else.

And he also happens to be gay.

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Exactly!
and moving on...

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Both thumbs up on your excellent post.

To be honest, I actually missed the part about Mitch being gay at the end, so it was only when I came to this site that I found out.

I really cannot understand all the uproar: homosexuality is just as normal as heterosexuality, but somehow the mass US public seems to equate it with degradation and abortion rights and all those other things that Republican "Family Values" abhor.

Perhaps including it, even as a throw-away line at the end, in a film primarily intended for kids was possibly a bad choice, simply because parents are so shy of the subject and there might be awkward questions from children on the way out of the cinema, but the intolerance being shown by parents is an exact mirror of the intolerance shown by the adult characters in the film.

Maybe one day the US will enter the 21st century and realise that we in Europe are socially well ahead.

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but the intolerance being shown by parents is an exact mirror of the intolerance shown by the adult characters in the film.


It's funny that this message went over so many (presumably) adult parents' heads! They are representing the exact same puritanical hypocrisy and mob mentality that the movie explained so well.

Maybe one day the US will enter the 21st century and realise that we in Europe are socially well ahead.

As someone who is a dual citizen with both the US and an EU-member country, let me just say that while the EU as a whole is in many ways better than the US (some sort of universal healthcare in most places, gun prohibition, etc.), when it comes to many minority groups, the EU really isn't much better. And I'm not just talking about East-Central Europe and Ireland (though those countries have their own particular sets of problems). Basically, racism, misogyny, LGBT-phobia, or xenophobia are not problems exclusive to the US (though Americans sure as hell excel at it!). It's easy for Europeans in the EU to look at the US and then pat themselves on the back, but there are many who have equally bigoted beliefs toward immigrants (especially Muslim immigrants and immigrants of color), Romani people, and the LGBT community, and it is important to be mindful of that.


Manuscripts don't burn.

LMAOROFLMRIATRIANASIAMIO!!!!!!

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Oh look, irony. You get on your soap box to preach about how homosexuality is viewed incorrectly, but at the same time do the same thing to republicans and their values. Let me assure there are many republicans who are gay, those that are not gay but have friends or family and are fine with it, ans some who just dont care either way. On the flip side I am 100 percent sure you can find liberals/democrats who hate gays.

I could also make an argument about how social views are like evolution, there is no perfection or plateau (it doesn't matter what century it is, your "perfect" social realm will never come), its ever changing, but such concept are probably a little over your head.

And FYI I am from Europe too, I live in America, but I know all too well that Europe is no paradise; socially, economically, or anything else. Your social elitism is almost as bad as someone who dislikes homosexuals, its condescending and offensive in its on way.


Back on topic, I actually thought it was a good joke. It was playful, the whole movie you think he is just a dumb jock more focused on working out and his car, thats why he kind of ignores the sister. And then with this you are like, oh, okay, IC what you did there. Overall a pretty good movie. And I agree with the OP, my Dad has two friends who are gay and great guys. Honestly, if they did not say anything no one would even know. They work in tech fields, hang out, drink beer, everything pretty standard by the book.



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I don't understand why anyone would make a big deal out of it. A lot of people have to be less conservative and more tolerant.

Who died and made you *beep* king of the zombies?

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A+ response, agree with everything that you had to say.

I'll think of a signature later ~

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Bravo! The character doesn't even go around talking to people about his orientation--he just talks about his boyfriend as naturally as if a straight guy was talking about his girlfriend. Funnily enough, portraying non-straight people as being just like straight people is suddenly the most subversive and revolutionary act you could do!

It is also interesting to note that people sometimes say it is a choice. However I also must point out that that reveals a lot more about themselves, then it does for the average gay person. Do they speak from personal experience? was it a choice for them not explore further their own same sex attractions, their own potential bi-sexuality. Because, how else could they then make such a claim?


On choice and orientation--there are very many interesting conversations to be had on how, for a few queer people, it is a choice (see the critique on the born-this-way idea of queer identities by Shiri Eisner, a genderqueer bisexual activist, and Cynthia Nixon http://radicalbi.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/cynthia-nixon-and-bisexual-c hoice/), but these conversations should NOT be led by cis, heterosexual people. And, unfortunately, there is sometimes a dark undercurrent to the biological determinist view of GLB* orientations and trans* identities--the idea that being queer is worse than being straight and that if people DID have a choice, they would invariably choose heterosexuality and a cis existence. I understand that in most parts of the world, simply being heterosexual IS better--not because there is anything inherently wrong with not being straight, but because many societies are heterosexist and some are outright dangerous to non-straight and non-cis people. But after several conversations with presumably well-meaning, openminded straight people I realized that they were using the born-this-way argument in, quite frankly, a conservative, homophobic and monosexist way: "If they had a choice then they would be normal (sic) like us!" and "bisexuals will always end up 'going straight' because that is better" (an argument voiced by some GL people as well).

As a bisexual, I, like you probably do, do not see my attractions as a choice. I was simply wired to be this way. The only "choice" involved would be whether I would act on a desire (whatever that desire entails) or whether I'd suppress it. And that is likely true for most people, though we may differ on the kind of desire, society's reactions to expressions of that desire, or where we believe the desire came from. I would refrain from blaming the "homosexuality is a choice" argument from bigoted straight or closeted people on their "actually" being bisexual. Some of them probably are, but in my experience, the kinds of people to voice that argument are people who never had to question their orientation to begin with, namely, heterosexual people. It's easy to ascribe the origins of orientation to anything if you live in a society tailored and bent to your orientation's needs. In addition, I don't really like the biphobia being used in arguments against people who ascribe orientation to choice because, while it is true that for some bisexuals it is a choice, it is more importantly true that bisexuals, as a result of discrimination, are part of the larger queer community, and no, we do NOT voice the argument that straight is better (because we are not straight ourselves).

Manuscripts don't burn.

LMAOROFLMRIATRIANASIAMIO!!!!!!

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You have a PM sent to you.

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I'm taking my hat off for you, in response to your post.

It was an innocent joke aimed at Norman's sister who had been flirting continuously with Mitch and acting like a hormone-raged teenager throughout the movie (which is, well, extremely normal)! But no one even complains about a horny teenage girl in a kids movie, and instead dig their nails into one innocent gay joke.

The joke came off as a surprise for me, and even I'm gay, and thought it was a brave move from the filmmakers, even for such an innocent joke. It was hilarious!

Anatidaephobia — the fear that somewhere, somehow, a duck is watching you.

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"...Norman's sister who had been flirting continuously with Mitch and acting like a hormone-raged teenager throughout the movie (which is, well, extremely normal)! But no one even complains about a horny teenage girl in a kids movie,..."

Exactly! fee_fur's original post mentioned that when people hear "gay" they instantly think sex sex sex sex sex, well that's what the teenage girl was representing the ENTIRE movie & no one had a problem with that, but because Mitch utters one line about his boyfriend - OMG shut it down!

I also think it was brave. I actually exclaimed out loud & was happy when I heard that line, because it was such a surprise. Though, sadly it shouldn't have to be in this day & age.

BTW, Dan your signature has me cracking up!

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Great post, fee_fur! I completely agree with everything you said! :)

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