MovieChat Forums > Downton Abbey (2011) Discussion > Victim blaming by Mrs Hughes?

Victim blaming by Mrs Hughes?


Did anyone else feel slightly uncomfortable when Mrs Hughes told Mr Carson that the fact that Thomas had tried to kiss Jimmy against his will was partly Jimmy's fault? She said that Jimmy "led" Thomas "on" because of his vain ways.

I understand what she is trying to say, as there are a lot of men and women like Jimmy who enjoy it when others notice their beauty and try to play it up. However, would we have been so indifferent to Mrs Hughes' comment if it had been a female servant in Jimmy's place? My feeling is that we are far less tolerant of any suggestion that a woman who is sexually assaulted against her will has somehow "led on" the perpetrator, because we consider that to be victim blaming. However, shouldn't it be the same for a man, as in Jimmy's case?

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Mrs. Hughes didn't know how much O'Brian egged on Jimmy, encouraging him to get in good with Thomas, and how she encouraged Thomas to misread Jimmy. A real witch; hard to believe Alfred is her nephew.

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I see what you mean, tomcervo, but I am thinking more of the fact that Mrs Hughes considered Jimmy responsible for what modern audiences would describe as a sexual assault by Thomas, or at best an unwanted sexual approach, since Jimmy didn't consent. Mrs Hughes is implying that despite his lack of consent he has still somehow brought the assault on to himself because he is a vain young man. To me, it's a bit like suggesting that a pretty woman who puts a lot of effort into her appearance is to be blamed when a man kisses her against her will.

My feeling is that Fellowes would never have included that line from Mrs Hughes about Jimmy being at fault had there been a female servant in Jimmy's place.

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Some might consider Anna's behavior with Greene might have led to and encouraged the rape. I'm not saying that I agree with it but certainly Bates was bothered enough by the attention she was paying Greene.

Anyone not quite in their right frame of mind given even the slightest encouragement might give someone else who's not really firmly gripped with full common sense might get the wrong idea.

For Thomas, in his world at his time, it would have been nearly impossible to know what another man might be feeling or thinking unless they approached him first. The problem being of course that the other person would also be hesitant to make the first move.

While Jimmy obviously never had this intention in mind, Thomas had little else to go on. Jimmy was a dandy and flirting with all of the girls, constantly in a battle with Alfred over Ivy and essentially a mirror of Thomas himself when it came to over-confidence and playing the part of the man always in the right.

With O'Brien's constant prodding, Jimmy was more friendly than he probably wanted to be with Thomas and that encouraged all of the touchiness that he found so uncomfortable. Since he only complained of it to O'Brien and never said a word to Thomas, he had no idea that Jimmy disliked it or him for doing it.

So I really don't find what Mrs. Hughes said to be that out of the question or out of line because when viewed objectively, it did seem as though Jimmy was definitely sending mixed messages and that Thomas could hardly be blamed for trying to take it to the next step.

I very much doubt that he it would have gone any further than the kiss since Jimmy was bound to wake up and fight him off regardless of whether Alfred entered the room at that moment or not.

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Why do you think Mrs. Hughes would be innocent of victim-blaming in the case of a woman servant? She blamed Ethel as much as the Major, and Ethel was the one who suffered the consequences. Mrs. Hughes may have helped her later, but she was the one who kicked Ethel out.

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Carson did a worse Victim blaming, he Basically said boy will be boys but Ethel was at fault for not saying no

Slainte 🇮🇪 I am who I am your approval isnt needed or required.




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Mrs Hughes threw Ethel out immediately upon discovering her with the Major, so no one at that point knew she was pregnant.

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I was talking of victim-blaming in the sense that a person who is subject to an unwanted sexual approach is somehow considered to be responsible for the approach in the first place. Ethel's case isn't one of victim-blaming, as there was no unwanted advance. Ethel was a willing participant in the affair with the Major until she was found out. So Mrs Hughes couldn't have been guilty of victim blaming her anyway.

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Mrs. Hughes assisting Anna is a more comparable example. She told Anna it wasn't her fault Green raped her.

Re Ethel, I don't condone what Mrs. Hughes did, but that was the practice at the time. If Mrs. hughes had turned a blind eye, eventually Ethel would have started to show and Carson would have fired her. And in real life, Mrs. Hughes's own position would have been in jeopardy as well if she hadn't dismissed Ethel right away.

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Yes Ethel wasn't raped, though I bet there was some coercion going on..but When two people have sex its both their responsibility. as so is the outcome.
Ethel found herself pregnant and Mr Carson put all the blame on her and said Boys will be boys and its Ethel's fault she is a marked women because she didn't say no.

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Mrs Hughes assisting Anna is a more comparable example. She told Anna it wasn't her fault Green raped her.


Yes, and if she had been the stern housekeeper her position called for, she would never had let Green get away with it! I always disliked Mrs Hughes' passivity in this matter. When she first saw Anna cowering in her room, Mrs Hughes should have IMMEDIATELY notified his Lordship, Green would have been quarantined ( it was obvious he had no desire to flee), Bates would have been physically held back from harming Green, and we would have been spared an agonizingly long storyline THAT COULD HAVE BEEN SETTLED THAT NIGHT! Of course, that doesn't make for good drama but I can't help but feel that the situation would not have been handled that way in real life. Mrs Hughes deferring to a maid and letting a criminal go? That would have been a scandal for sure on the family name.

"Sympathy doesn't butter the parsnips." - Mrs. Patmore

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Why do you think Mrs. Hughes would be innocent of victim-blaming in the case of a woman servant? She blamed Ethel as much as the Major, and Ethel was the one who suffered the consequences. Mrs. Hughes may have helped her later, but she was the one who kicked Ethel out.
That was her duty as Housekeeper. If she hadn't, word mght have gotten around that loose behavior was tolerated in the house and every woman who worked there would have gotten a sordid reputation. Good families wouldn't have let their girls go to work there.
Servants could be held to a higher standard of behavior than the family or their guests--and as we've seen, the servants often behave more honorably than the Crawleys.

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It shows how in that time even the good ones like Mrs. Hughes still had some pretty backwards views for today's time.

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I agree with you but I was surprised that critics and viewers didn't comment on that, because I am pretty sure that had it been a woman in Jimmy's place, the element of "victim blaming" in Mrs Hughes' comments would have been discussed more.

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And that's today's world for you.

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You seem like you have a weird agenda that is completely unrelated to the show.

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Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that I'll be over here looking through your stuff.

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You seem like you have a weird agenda that is completely unrelated to the show.
What agenda?

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But the show doesn't take place in "today's time." It took place in the 1920s and Mrs. Hughes definitely was, for the most part, a woman of her time.

http://currentscene.wordpress.com

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Well, they weren't backward for the time this series is set in. We should not look on the attitudes of that time through the lenses of ours. Mrs. Hughes and Mr. Carson were loyal retainers, careful above all things of the honor of the household they served. Their function was to serve and protect their employers from unpleasantness and inconvenience.
Even among the common people, a woman who had been raped was usually blamed, and sometimes discarded by her husband. Anna's relief at Bates' love, support, and sympathy for her after he found out about the rape is an indication that she, seeing herself as sullied and unworthy of her husband, expected to be blamed and rejected. It still happens that even now some husbands blame and reject a wife who has been raped.
Since homosexuality was not publicly acknowledged, the idea that a man could possibly be molested by another man would certainly be kept in the shadows, and as when a woman was molested, the victim would almost certainly be under suspicion of somehow having provoked the assault.
We have come a long way.

Like many of us,though, I am becoming thoroughly tired of so many looking for offense in every single thing that is said or done.

I could be a morning person if morning happened at noon.

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I should have explained myself better in the OP. I am more interested that the audience and commentators didn't remark about the victim-blaming implications of Mrs Hughes' statement that Jimmy was responsible for Thomas's advances.

I don't think any less of Mrs Hughes as a character for saying that, because, as you and others have pointed out, it's inappropriate to judge people from different times with modern standards. I was only wondering whether modern audiences failed to comment on Mrs Hughes' statement because the "victim" was a man, instead of a woman.

If anything, I am questioning the double-standard regarding victim blaming in today's society, rather than criticising the morals of the characters in the show.

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I know Jimmy did express discomfort about Thomas laying hands on him all the time, but I don't remember it being to Mrs. Hughes. Her reaction might have been different after the incident if it had been to her that he had expressed that discomfort.
I think we hear so much these days about blaming and shaming that we have become desensitized to an extent, perhaps the reason that no one noted it. Open acknowledgement that men can be victims of unwanted advances is relatively recent. I suppose that is because most male victims are reluctant to acknowledge that it happens just as they are reluctant to report physical abuse by a female spouse, but that they can be and are is certainly true, and there definitely is a double standard in failing to acknowledge it in Jimmy's case.
Now that same-sex marriage is legal, I am sure that we will be seeing the same issues of domestic abuse that exist in some heterosexual marriages.

I could be a morning person if morning happened at noon.

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I think Jimmy expressed his discomfort to O'Brien. At a time when Thomas was NOT in O'Brien's "good graces". Then Alfred saw the bit with Jimmy's reaction when Thomas came to his room. O'Brien "nudged" both Jimmy & Alfred to report Thomas.

Hughes comment was not victim blaming. Her comment about Jimmy being a "flirt" was based on her observations of Jimmy's interactions with other servants. That Jimmy's flirting nature could easily been mis-interpreted by Thomas.

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I thought this thread was going to be about her reaction when she found out about Tom and Edna. She was sympathetic to Tom's plight but also told him that he did the wrong thing (something like that, I can't remember the exact words). It seemed to me like he was raped. We see Edna drug him and he feels terrible afterwards.

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