People keep calling Neeson's character an atheist (since he himself says that he is an atheist). Do atheists really talk to God and ask God to answer them ? Isn't talking to God acknowledging his existence in some way, thereby believing in Him/Her at some level?
Neeson's character was agnostic at best.
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That's what she said
In a situation like that, I think even a dyed-in-the-wool atheist could resort to calling out to God for help. It's not like they can't or that it's illegal if they do. And I don't think that they forfeit their atheism if they do. That's like saying a theist isn't a theist anymore if, in a moment of weakness, he/she questions the existence of God. It's one of the ways that faith is tested. Ottway's faith was in atheism, and it was tested when he called out to Him. His faith was tested and he remained an atheist. He didn't get what he needed from God in order to believe in Him. Remember? "Show me something real!"
Monkey with small testicles roar loudest -- Confucius
Fair enough. I never said he was not an atheist anymore since he questioned God. I was just wondering how strongly do atheists believe that God does not and cannot exist. Because if this belief is very strong, then question God and his inaction is still an acknowledgment of his existence. His actions fall more in the agnostic category
Then again he was under a lot of pressure, and people have done crazier things
Also a theist questioning God's existence in a moment of weakness is still acknowledging that he believes in God's existence to begin with.
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That's what she said
An agnostic is someone who doesn't commit either way not someone who switches from atheism to theism and then back again.
Ottway was obviously a very troubled individual.
Monkey with small testicles roar loudest -- Confucius
Um, no. A true atheist would never call out to any god. He had to have been at least agnostic, OR the writers share your delusion that even atheist believe in god on some level. Sorry...we don't. I've been atheist for years. I also survived a near fatal car crash about 8 years ago. I thought sure I was going to die. I didn't call to any god or pray. I only thought of my family and the life I was going to leave behind. A true atheist doesn't waiver and change their mind when facing death because an atheist is as sure no god exists as you are that one does. If an atheist does change they're mind, then they were never really atheist to begin with. Period.
shareI think that you only speak for yourself.
Monkey with small testicles roar loudest -- Confucius
If you see deleted scenes and read up on Carnahan's interviews, they're actually right. He's agnostic. They say so.
shareIn the movie, Ottway claims atheism as his belief. Wouldn't that make him an atheist and not an agnostic? Is it your reasoning that he must be an agnostic because he called out to God? Are you like the person I responded to who thinks that an atheist is only an atheist if they never ever stray from their belief in even the tiniest way?
Monkey with small testicles roar loudest -- Confucius
There's an interview Carnahan did. You can read it online. Thought he was atheist too until I read the article with the director himself. In a deleted take at the campfire, Ottway elaborates beyond, "I used to believe that, I can't anymore" and calls himself a realist. But an agnostic, someone who doesn't believe or not believe and just doesn't know, can be self described as a realist certainly so it makes sense, especially after Carnahan explained Ottway's character in the interview. Btw, something else in the interview I didn't know was that Bradley Cooper was originally supposed to play Ottway, but Carnahan said due to Ottway's life experiences and state, he needed someone older who could pull off what Liam Neeson did with his views on life and death.
shareIt doesn't matter what Carnahan has said. It's fairly basic what makes a person a theist, atheist or agnostic. Nor does it matter what Ottway USED to believe. Ottway's expressed belief is that there is no supernatural God and only the natural, material (real) world, therefore he is an atheist. You can twist it into any configuration you like, but it is what it is.
And it doesn't matter that Ottway called out to God near the end. It's in no way disqualifying. Actually, if you look at the scene closely, it is designed as a way to confirm Ottway's atheism, which is his faith. Ottway lays out to God his terms for believing in Him, and God must meet those terms in order to "earn" Ottway's belief (Ottway: "F@#k faith! Earn it!" "Show me something real. Show me and I'll believe in you till the day I die."). Were any of his terms met? No. All Ottway got was silence. "F#$k faith! Earn it!": That's the obligatory atheist mantra. Ottway is an atheist.
Monkey with small testicles roar loudest -- Confucius
I speak for many. You, an obvious christian, speaking on behalf of atheists is laughable. You say atheist will call out to god in their final moments because it falls in line with what YOU believe. You can't accept the fact that many don't believe as you regardless of circumstance. An atheist, by definition, does not believe in a higher power. If someone believes in a higher power they are not atheist. Period. If it helps you sleep at night to think all people believe in your god on some level then so be it. But to think that way is simply false reassurance for you and it's a highly conceded way of thinking, which falls in line with most Christians. I don't care what you believe. Believe whatever you want. Pray to whoever you wish but don't think for a second that everyone believes as you deep down. And don't insult other people by putting your words into their mouths and forcing your way into their belief system.
shareI was in no way speaking for atheists. I was using logic and what happened in the movie to counter the OP's assertion.
You speak for yourself, as I do when I'm expressing my opinions.
You say atheist will call out to god in their final moments because it falls in line with what YOU believe.
And don't insult other people by putting your words into their mouths and forcing your way into their belief system.
I do practice what I preach. The difference here is me, being an actual atheist, I am speaking on behalf of other atheists. Atheists that I know and have had discussions with...who have communicated to me what they believe. You are inserting your belief system into atheism. What you are doing would be like me speaking for Christians and inserting atheism into Christianity. Let me clarify this for you. I don't care what people believe. I don't exclude anyone. You don't know me, so for you to insinuate that is ridiculous. If you want to say you're more compassionate because it helps you sleep better at night than so be it. But the truth still stands. Atheism, BY DEFINITION is this:
a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/
noun
noun: atheism
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism
"atheism was not freely discussed in his community"
Now, I didn't write that definition, so your attempt to tell me that I am boxing people into this belief system is flawed. Talk to the person who wrote the definition, not me. An atheist does not believe in god. That is the definition. It's not about opinion. It's about the literal definition of the word. Period. That's the way it is. If a person is uncertain whether god exists, then they are agnostic, not atheist. End of story. You can't change the definition of something because you feel like it or because it is more pleasing to YOU to think of it in a different way.
I am also not angry, and am in no way confused. If you think I sound angry, that's on you. That's you projecting your feelings onto me. I've been atheist for 30 years. I know exactly who I am and what I believe. The reason you are calling me angry is because I have an opposing view to yours. That's what Christians do. They immediately label atheists as lost or angry because they can't grasp the fact that people can be happy in life and not believe in god. Label me all you want, but again, you don't know me.
And with that, I'm done with this conversation. I stand completely by what I said, but I refuse to argue with someone who twists a definition to their liking and then calls me angry and confused because I call them out on it.
You have a lovely life and ramble on all you want. I won't be back to read it.
I haven't twisted anything. In no way have I attempted to alter the definition of atheism. This is a fantasy on your part, fueled by your original straw man. Speaking of that straw man, can you verify that I said atheists will call out to God in their final moments? Where did I say that? You do realize that if you can't verify the very basis of your argument against me, you actually have no legitimate argument? It's all a steaming pile of horsesh!t.
To you, there are two atheisms: atheism and true atheism. You said: "A true atheist would never call out to any god." Where in the definition of atheism does it say that? The answer: nowhere. So you see, you're the one changing the definition. You're the one adding the caveat. You're the one deciding who is and isn't practicing atheism, based on your elitist notion of a "true atheist". Do you call your little group of true atheists that you speak for the Aryan Atheists?
I say that an atheist is anyone who claims that they don't believe in the existence of God or gods (that fits the definition you provided). I say an atheist can remain an atheist even if they call out to God the way Ottway did. So it's obvious that I am more compassionate and accepting when it comes to a belief that I firmly disagree with.
You're obviously angry, as demonstrated by you wussing out of the conversation and taking your ball and going home.
Monkey with small testicles roar loudest -- Confucius
There are different kinds of atheists. There are no "rules" to atheism.
shareI am not bothered what Ottway character is. I am more bothered by the movie's real motive.
**spoilers**
In the end, Ottway calls God for help, but he didn't get any help.
This somehow proves that the movie's real intention was to show that there is no God, because calling him doesn't help. People would believe in God if God helped them in problematic situations like Ottway was in.
Since there was no help, no hope for anything, the movie sends an atheistic message to the audience.
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Monkey with small testicles roar loudest -- Confucius
It seems Ottway was an atheist. Listen to his philosophies on life even in the opening ten minutes of the movie. He seems lost and like life has no meaning, he doesn't know why he does what he does, etc..But he could be agnostic too, searching for meaning and God and unable to find God.
When he called out for help, it was a pretty powerful scene, but it was way too late for God to help him there. He should have been praying to God a long time ago (like before he took that job in his life to begin with) if he wanted to prevent any sort of catastrophe. Even once the plane downed, he could have prayed harder for wisdom (as some people mentioned, they had a better chance at defending themselves against the wolves by staying at the plane, or a better chance of being found if there was a rescue chopper).
Finally, he would have the wrong "conception" of God. The fact that he so much "externalizes" God here is a sign that he has no conception and comprehension of how God works. Although it's heavily debated, most spiritual people search for the "God within", although they acknowledge divine providence. The strongest believers seem to use wisdom to prevent such situations like that from happening by searching for meaning and answers and a connection to their creator "inside of themselves", not by looking up to the sky and saying "do something". That's just my two cents.
If God existed it would never be 'too late' to call on him.
shareI agree from the external perspective, but it would be too late for God to help him is the better description. For example, if you took the wrong exit off the highway and drove into the drug infested ghettos of Chicago or St. Louis at 2am or 3am in the morning, while criminal activity and drug deals may be going on and happen to be an innocent bystander in the midst of a shooting, it is kind of late for God to help you. Externally, God is present, but he can do little to help in such an instance. You would need luck or divine intervention. This is the external belief in God, which is fine for people who believe that.
In the internal belief in God which would have more to do with praying for wisdom to make sound decisions and prevent any such catastrophes, one would exercise more of a self-accountability perspective, and they wouldn't even put themselves or give themselves a chance to put themselves into a situation like that to begin with. For example, they would know not to be getting off at exits in what could be a bad part of the city in the bad hours of the morning where robberies could be more likely to occur.
In Ottway's case, he should have never abandoned the plane and hoped that rescuers would somehow find them. He would and should have prayed for better wisdom before venturing off into the woods where they had no chance of being spotted. If he did stay at the plane and still the events transpired the way they had and he looked up into the sky and yelled that, he would have a better argument, but even still, couldn't he have had stronger faith months before and sought to get a better job that wouldn't be as dangerous as oil rig expeditions in the middle of the arctic nowhere. Everyone knows that's a risky job and life threatening. If he had strong faith, his prayer would have been answered a long time ago by searching for and finding a better and safer job. God can only help people who help themselves.
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The agnostic against God, with the winner holding the correct belief.
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I've never seen such a clear case of someone talking out of their ass.
No surprise you'd entirely misunderstand what I was saying in that other thread.
Monkey with small testicles roar loudest -- Confucius
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It's not my fault that you and some others are addle-brained.
Monkey with small testicles roar loudest -- Confucius
Yes. In fact, you're right. It's very true that many nonbelievers will call on God at their last moment, like Ottway did. I thought that scene was incredibly powerful in many ways and really enhanced the film. Neeson's acting was phenomenal and really took that scene to another level.
I think the difference between nonbelievers and believers is that nonbelievers have a really false conception of God, likely taught to them or not taught to them through their life. So they focus on the "skyfairy" perhaps like Ottway did. But true believers are much more humble in their approach and pray for wisdom to prevent such happenings. As I mentioned above, if Ottway had believed and prayed for a better, safer job and sought out a safer job months prior to the events, he would be operating on faith. But not having faith, he never sought out such a better circumstance so he ended up in that "rut", and it was too late for God to help him really. This ties in with the opening scene where he says "I don't know why I've done half the things I've done". He is clearly lost and lacking in faith.
Even if he had practiced faith at the crash site, he would have had a better chance at survival because as some people said, at least they had weaponry to defend against the wolves there and they also had at least a better chance at being rescued if they did send rescue planes or helicopters. But Ottway didn't believe in God, and that's why his reliance only on himself without reflecting on wisdom and a higher wisdom resulted in him being in that totally desperate situation, where God couldn't do much. Maybe God did, as one person said, in giving him the life to fight and kill the alpha, but that was all he could do. Not much to work with in those circumstances.
Interesting question. It's a powerful scene.
share[deleted]