MovieChat Forums > Cleanskin (2012) Discussion > Ash's speech is similar to the 7/7 Londo...

Ash's speech is similar to the 7/7 London bombers speech


The end speech which Ash gives seems inspired by the real life speech the head of the London 7/7 bombers did which was released right after the 7/7 bombings.

The film took it to even more chilling and menacing level with some Class A editing and sound design to create a powerful montage.

Brave film showing how terrorists psychos are made, recruited and manipulated around the world, showing what really goes on with these evil organisations.

Good stuff.

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[deleted]

When Sean shot the terrorist I cheered.

But then got a shiver when he carried on talking and said in his voice over video "there'd be more like me", or something along those lines, a real reminder of 7/7. Clever little movie.

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Ash was an idiot but he had intelligence, a strange contradiction.

How you can be smart, stupid and murderous all at the same time? Much like the real life murderous 7/7 London bomber Khan was.

The speech demonstrated all of these traits, smart but murderous and totally blind to other peoples suffering, prepared to kill innocents, he was doing everything he professed to hate.

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The real life Khan speech is so scary because it's done in such an ordinary way.

Loved it when Mean Bean blew his terrorist brains out!

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The Ash character was a misguided hypocrite but the real hypocrite was the Nabil character, the 'godfather' character who put Ash up to it.

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Agreed

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I dont think western world really understands.

Calling bombers hypocrite, stupid, psycho etc will not get you to a solution.

I am a Muslim. Who believes in martyrdom. It is a part of our religion. Martyrdom is to die for what you believe. To die fighting against who are to harm you. if a person attacks you, and you defned yourself. And get killed. That is martyrdom. Any culture will hail that kind of spirit right?

But suicide bombing is different. it has nothing to do with it. Any real muslim would know suiciding is a way to lock yourself out of heaven eternally. And killing innocent people will definitely no way to help.

There is a very thin line. This line can be easily confused by desperate people. Just like Ewan killed a spy of his own thinking he was serving his country.

So, bombers doesnt have to be psychoes or morons. Considering them so will not help the world get rid of terrorism.

It is about rage and desperation. If you make people desperate you produce amunition for terrorism.

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i think the problem is the people who say that people are worth fighting because they allow innocents to get caught in the crossfire, then saying so its ok for us to kill innocents. if killing innocents is such a heinous offence, how is it not when they do it? that is where they are called hypocrite when they say anyone who would kill women and children is evil so im going to kill women and children to fight evil.

i actually have no problem with attacks on the military, i dont like it of course because people die, and i dont like when people die needlessly in muslim countries either, but we are the ones that chose to be at war and in a time of war soldiers and politicians are legitimate targets, we kill leaders and soldiers so we have to accept ours are open to the same, i even accept that underhanded tactics have to be used when fighting a nation more militarily sophisticated, the ira did it but most branches of the ira went out of their way to not harm innocent people and would call in codes to let the police know to clear an area. it caused havoc, it disrupted daily life and scared people, it caused property destruction etc and it got the british government to the table when the city of london was in danger of not being able to continue doing business unless a compromise was reached, but deliberatly killing as many people as possible, in fact targeting totally innocent bystanders with no military connections at all, then you lose any argument.

you could even say the world trade centre was somewhat a military target as it had military offices inside, and the pentagon and white house certainly were, but still its the deaths of all those people who have never played a part in anything that is so wrong, and 7/7, that was just pure murder, buses have no military value, if theyd bombed the ministry of defence or something, hm still not great but not just outright murder and atrocity. jihad is only to be used to fight and kill an oppressor who trys to prevent you practising islam, going across the globe to kill innocents, i guess you could say well if they cant stop the war by carrying out defense in their country, they have to attempt offense, but again there are more moral ways to do it, more muslim ways to do it, where you either attack purely military targets and nothing else, or you do everything in your power to reduce the number of casualties, but these bombers do the opposite, attack totally civilian targets and try to cause as much evil as possible.

that leaves people with no other view than these are sick mass murderers and it becomes so that anyone trying to present the case that well we need to give people of these countries peaceful alternatives to be heard, we need to stop these wars unless they are just, if we do conduct them we need to take more efforts to protect innocent people, we need to stop rendition and enhanced interogation, something i really hate, the US executed japanese after ww2 for the war crime of torture if theyd used waterboarding, even if thats all they had done, waterboarding soldiers was a death sentence, now the US has done what it would execute other people for doing, we have to see that people who fight are treated as soldiers as long as they carry weapons openly and dont target civilians, if we treat them as terrorists when they obey the laws of war, they have no reason to continue legitimate warfare where they are at a disadvantage already etc.

the bombers though, they hurt their own case by their methodology, they break the laws of islam, they deliberatly kill innocents, not oh they were aiming for soldiers and people got caught in the crossfire, the west does catch innocents in the crossfire but they dont deliberatly target civilians for execution. the biggest enemies of islam are these bombers, they cause justification to break human rights even more, to conduct more wars, to use more drones, to kill more people etc. i agree with you martydom, dying in defence of your people is noble, but suicide bombing innocents is not martydom, so yeh while i agree with you in part i still have to say the reason they are called dumb or evil etc is because they do act evil, theres no way round that.

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There is no way not to be honest and not offend you, but you are completely ignorant of the realities of 21st Century religious extremism.

They don't give a lick about you or what you think. You are not their audience.

It isnt even about Islam, and as such any talk about their actions not being justified by the Quran are pointless. Everything they do is in support of their cultural beliefs. Granted, they usually dress up their justifications as religious. The standards by which they control their own people is the sole goal. Period.

They arent trying to scare Americans or British citizens with their attacks and they dont give a damn about the consequences we live with as a result of their actions. They are playing to a home audience.

It is all done with goal of affecting the mindset within their culture period. It is all about setting us up as the hated "other".

The fear of men within their culture is losing their way of life. Unless you are willing to abandon the concept of comprehensive human rights for all people, you will not stop them.

Fundamentalist Christian men are no different in their desire to deny human rights to everyone.

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did you mean to be honest and not offend? rather than no way not to be?

ok sorry you make zero sense. the suicide bomber killing himself does not gain power over people or have any reason to try to control their own people, where is the gain after they are dead? they believe its religious or theyd place the bomb and walk away, they wouldnt suicide bomb, thats kind of the point. what do you think is the reason the people who actually die themselves carrying out the attack do it for? culture over religion? makes no sense. the point of the quran is that those who may have a more strategic goal can use those arguments to manipulate someone into actually committing those attacks for them. what would it take for you, with no belief in divine reward, to be convinced to kill yourself to profit someone else?

the 7/7 bombers 'home audience' was britain. so what on earth are you talking about? 'they' arent involved, it was british muslims angry at how they were treated and how their community was degraded and disrespected and the guilt of living in the busom of those killing their fellows around the world, they were western moderates before the war on terror so what culture were they trying to preserve? the war on terror pushed them to adopt a, to them, foreign culture. you have it totally backwards in this case, western born islamic terrorists arent trying to preserve the power over women they are used to from their days back in kabul, that motive makes no sense as they dont have that culture in the first place never mind to preserve, they go and adopt more of that culture to give themselves a sense of identity when they feel they are not like us as we are saying they are the evil other, the boogey man. once they are cut from our society they need a society to belong to.

now the people who recruit and radicalise and send others to carry out the attack, sure, they do it to benefit themselves and their ideology, but the guy actually pressing the button on the vest, why would he and how would he control his own people, and in the cases of western muslims bombing, who are 'their people' they are trying to control? if they have no connection to a particular country or regime that makes zero sense, the actual guy on the ground is doing it in retaliation for what they see being done to others of their religion around the world from different cultures. so yes the organisers, the upper tier, they are fighting for regional power, to have a corrupt social structure etc, but they just use the bombers as a tool for that. the actual bombers are not thinking oh well im just a pawn on a chessboard and thats worth dying for, the guy actually pressing the button is a believer corrupted by misuse of the meaning of jihad, if you dont abdicate the moral highground you take away the iniative from those corrupting them with it.

why would abandoning human rights stop them? you mean it would embolden those at the top by proving their methods work in getting their way and being left alone so theyd use the tactics more and more? groups that really do want to fight a culture war and mislead and pervert the actual bombers would put sooo much more effort into recruitment etc if they saw it was actually going to win them their culture war. respecting human rights would do far more good in taking away their moral high ground they use to those they are misleading into thinking it is religious, what we do now is give them justification as they see it. al qaeda's main recruitment tool still, is guantanamo bay and the abuses in abu ghraib, they can say look, they are the strong and they are against your entire religion, this is what they are doing to us all, we have to hit back anyway we can and they have done worse so its ok to do it back. if you are respecting the rights of even those captured on the battlefield, not overusing bombing (only 2% of those killed by drones are high ranking or command level, the rest are petty militia, civilians, or even friendly forces who were targeted because they were holding weapons. that makes us more enemies), you suck away any justification that could be used to convince the religious radicals who actually carry out the attacks by showing no, this is not a religious war to make islam bow down, this is a war against criminals and thugs, against immoral powerholds etc, not all of islam. by behaving worse they dont believe us when we say we are there for humanitarian or altruistic reasons, they see us as corrupt, hypocritical and the truly evil ones, and if we are hitting what they identify with they see us as legitimate targets to hit right back.

also to set us up as the hated other, they dont need to bomb us for that, how does that make us the bad guys? did you hear about that guy? he was so evil he was shot in the head! that makes no sense, them bombing us doesnt make us the hated other, us being hypocrtical, saying we fight for freedom and equality then abusing human rights makes us the hated other. to make us the hated other they show how we bomb them, how we drone them, how we kill 11 children in afghanistan and try to claim they were armed combatants, how we bomb a wedding and try to cover it up, how we are the powerful abusing our power to lord it over them and control their own policies. thats what makes us the hated other, us bombing them, them bombing us is a symptom of that, the reaction to seeing us as the hated other, not the cause.

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You two should keep chatting, both your points are really interesting.

at least you're not hurling cause at each other like the standard IMDb conversation always descends into.

Keep going you two.

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There is no way not to be honest and not offend you, but you are completely ignorant of the realities of 21st Century religious extremism.

They don't give a lick about you or what you think. You are not their audience.

It isnt even about Islam, and as such any talk about their actions not being justified by the Quran are pointless. Everything they do is in support of their cultural beliefs. Granted, they usually dress up their justifications as religious. The standards by which they control their own people is the sole goal. Period.

They arent trying to scare Americans or British citizens with their attacks and they dont give a damn about the consequences we live with as a result of their actions. They are playing to a home audience.

It is all done with goal of affecting the mindset within their culture period. It is all about setting us up as the hated "other".

The fear of men within their culture is losing their way of life. Unless you are willing to abandon the concept of comprehensive human rights for all people, you will not stop them.

Fundamentalist Christian men are no different in their desire to deny human rights to everyone.

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[deleted]

Fundamentalist Christian men are no different in their desire to deny human rights to everyone.



I'm glad you redeemed this post with this last line.

I was just reading recently how Russian bombers accidentally killed innocents at a hospital; how American bombers accidentally blew up injured kids trying to get out of a civil warzone; how Israeli bombers accidentally killed a group of kids trying to target Palestinian militia.

The thing is... no one is innocent in this. When a terrorist bombs an American civilian or British civilian location it's portrayed as this heinous thing. When it happens in the middle east... it's "collateral damage". All done to fight the good fight against evil.

I really enjoyed the line in the movie where Nabil fires back about the woman and baby dying as being "collateral damage". Both sides are using the same propaganda and expounding talking points of an identical nature.

America, Russia, Britain and the other super powers dress up "collateral damage" with military paint and decorated patches on an arm sleeve. Those fighting the great holy war do it wearing jackets lined with explosives and the same clothes they bow down and pray in every morning, noon and night.

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Brilliantly said, 'realkorky.' I wish more people understood this..

"IMdB; where 14 year olds can act like jaded 40 year old critics...'

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