Did he kill Caleb?
Did he?
shareI think so
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MovieChat Forums > Z for Zachariah (2015) Discussion > Did he kill Caleb?
Almost certainly and I think it's clear that Ann knew. Caleb wouldn't just leave like that. He was banging Margot Robbie, had shelter and good food in a post-apocalyptic wasteland. Why would he all of a sudden just decide to leave paradise and without his things? Makes no sense. I think in a situation where men are competing for the last woman on earth, they're liable to do some horrible things.
shareExactly, even IF he would have left, he would have prepared, made sure he got a bunch of stuff, rations, his bag, his tent, etc.
He'll be dead in 3 days without at least bringing some water!
If I was in a situation like that, I would not mind "sharing." The gene pool is already limited, so might as well try to make the best of it by introducing as much variation as possible.
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Yeah i guess nothing is more attractive then getting pregnant with a maybe mutated child because of the contamination.
I understand that guys would love to bang their brains out but for a woman ?
I understand that guys would love to bang their brains out but for a woman ?
Stereotyping much? Maybe forgetting that even in the movie under discussion John declined to "bang his brain out" when Ann was the one trying to do some banging (surprise surprise), telling her that it's too early in the acquaintance, but it's all-right since they have a lot of time.
And again, when Caleb got to "bang his brain out", it was Ann who initiated the encounter. Yes, it was the good Christian girl who was by far the randiest of the three characters.
Sure, it's only a movie. Yet in real life I've dated a girl who was a bit too obsessed with porn for my own liking. Truly, the age of men-this and women-that belong in bygone centuries.
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The book this movie is based on is pretty old. Pre internet by at least a couple of decades. And the author is even older, so yea the values presented are very much last century.
shareWhat if he didn't want to share?
shareGo to wikipedia and look up the ship the bounty and pitcairn islands, history has shown men will kill each other over all resources - including booty.
shareIIRC, this was one of the parts that were different in the book. They did, indeed, butcher this in the movie. Him leaving is completely unreasonable, like you say. Perhaps, she knew he had killed him--especially considering he admitted a prior murder already--but understood that he was the only ticket to further survival. It's called Z for Zacharia for a reason - the book of Zacharia was the last book in the Bible, iirc.
shareUmm....isn't Revelations the last book in the bible? Zechariah is in t h e Old Testament and isn't even the last one there.
shareZ for Zachariah I believe (going from high school memories!) is something to do with A for Adam - with Adam being the first man and Zachariah being the last. It is sort of bible related (by sort of I mean its Christian related) but not to do with books in the bible.
Such a shame they wandered from the book so far though. It was harrowing.
Yes and yes.
shareNo; no way John could have disposed of the body so quickly in a way that Ann would never find. Celeb knew all along he was not really wanted and after having sex with Ann and finishing the wheel it was time to move on..
Also, he could not have let Celeb fall without taking out the wheel and I don't think him capable of otherwise killing Celeb physically. A gun shot would have been heard.
A) Like people say, he would have almost certainly damaged the water capture spout.
B) He would have had to fish the body out of the pool of water WITHOUT a rad-suit.
C) The body could not just gracefully float away due to obstructions (include narrow steam exit).
All good points.
But,
A) Caleb was not all that exited about leaving, even before sleeping with Ann, he mentioned that city with 300 people, but in a matter of fact kind of way, like he was trying to get there when he thought he had no other choice, before he found this great farm!
B) As mentioned, who would just leave straight from the working site, after an entire work day and with no provisions?
C) He clearly did not believe John's story about Ann sleeping with him to try and keep him from leaving.
Those points you made are good, but they all can be explained, they are just mechanical problems, that water spout could be strong enough, it was build to last, with supporting pillars, the body was attached to the rope, thus not needing any fishing, and that valley was not that big, he could have dragged the body dumped it of a cliff or buried it.
What I can't reconcile with, is a person just throwing himself into a radiation wasteland for no apparent reason...
A) Why do you think they went to the work site with absolutely no rations to begin with.
B) John asked him to just leave perhaps? Caleb is clearly a troublesome person, his story about the mine for example seems fake, and many other things he said in order to spark problems. I have met these people in real life, they very often just blitz it out of places like this without goodbyes and hugs all around.
C) Are you convinced that such a fall would guarantee instant death? considering the structure below him would break his fall somewhat as its on a incline.
D) So if John killed Caleb then he would haft to do a fair bit a clean up in a highly radioactive water zone WITHOUT a rad-suit. Just doesn't seem viable, I would be more inclined to believe that John smacked Caleb over the head with a log AFTER leaving that site.
Lets also not forget that Caleb pointed the rifle at the back of Johns head at the start for a brief moment until coming to his senses about it. Clearly a guy with troubles, the type of guy to do a runner right after 'tapping dat arse' so to speak.
Also Caleb isn't Christian, total fake. He was going somewhere, the farm was just a convenient R&R detour`
I just watched the second half of the film on YouTube pretty bad sound so it was hard to understand everything said. But i do believe loomas killed caleb A) he had the perfect opportunity when caleb slipped B) the wheel was finished so he no longer needed caleb C ) he was afraid Anne would choose caleb over him. D ) why would caleb all of a sudden just leave?
"Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions"
Again, good points all around.
But, let us, just for a second, stop trying compare Caleb to someone we know or a situation we might have lived or heard of, in a world where you have other places to go...
Please remember the beginning of the movie, how horrible the US has become. It's not like Mad Max where the desert, heat, food and water depravation are the problem. It's not like The Walking Dead, where you can remain vigilant and somewhat get by.
The entire place is covered in radiation! There is NO other place to GO! Leaving there, for whatever reason, will result in radiation poisoning death! Simple as that!
I don't believe there is a person, as much Bad Boy, troubled as he could be, that will chose certain death!
And that's why I don't believe he left.
Yep
"Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions"
I don't know. I am of the opinion that he did in fact leave after John saved his life. If he was as religious as he claims and acts, then maybe he realized John was a good person and he was a good choice for Anne. But since the movie does not clearly state what happened, we are left to assume.
shareHe absolutely did kill him. This is made incredibly obvious by the conversation the two have before they finish the water wheel.
Loomis says to Caleb that he was never a threat to him while Caleb laughs in his face knowing he's incredibly jealous and lying. Loomis then asks Caleb about that city he was talking about heading to (sorry can't remember the name) and Caleb says that there's probably nothing there anyway and from this Loomis realizes that Caleb isn't going anywhere and the only way to get rid of him is murder.
Exactly. No more discussion needed. He killed Caleb.
shareGood points. Caleb may not have had serious intentions concerning Ann, and he realised that John was a good man after John saved his life. I must admit that I didn't think about how John would have had to enter the radioactive water to dispose of the evidence. That's what made me decide that John saved him and Caleb left. Why would Caleb leave without explaining to Ann? Perhaps he thought (perhaps correctly) that Ann would try to stop him, or insist on following him.
There are some subtle pointers earlier in the movie that possibly support this view.
1] John got very sick after a short time in the radioactive water. This tells us (deliberately?) that John couldn't have entered the water to dispose of Caleb's body without becoming sick. He didn't.
2] Caleb did have that jokey discussion with John that whoever shot the turkey would win Ann. I'm not saying that Caleb decided to honour that agreement, but that this was foreshadowing John's eventually ending up with Ann.
3] Ann's younger brother insisted on following the others, looking for them. This could explain Caleb leaving suddenly, as he (and John) didn't want Ann to do the same thing. Otherwise, we still have to know why John would leave like that.
4] John admitted to Ann that he'd possibly killed Ann's younger brother. (Not a murder, a mercy killing.) Quite likely if John had killed Caleb, he may eventually admit it. He's too honest a man. This makes it harder for me to believe that he'd deliberately let Caleb fall.
A tricky thing for this theory is why John would walk to the edge and balance there, as if he was thinking of jumping off to his death. Why? We see that he came back to Ann, but were we supposed to be thinking that John would kill himself out of guilt for killing Caleb. I personally think that scene was just meant to make the ending more ambiguous. Unless there's something I'm missing.
It's interesting that the movie is open to interpretation. I'm not saying that my interpretation is the only true one. Far from it.
He was tied to a rope, he would just pull him back up after he fell to his death.
sharehe let him fall - remember from the cliff edge?
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He saved him twice, because of instinct. It also showed him a way that he could get rid of him. So he did. He also went back to the scene and stood on the edge when we are supposed to believe he was going to commit suicide.
It's very obvious that Caleb didn't just leave.
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Yes, Caleb whas just a heat in a moment full of despair and they were both done woth him.
shareHe definitely killed Caleb, I thought the film made that obvious, maybe not. Here is my view of why Caleb's dead. Just an opinion.
1) Calebs stare: The look Caleb gives Loomis the second time he slips, is one that in my opinion is reminiscent of the one he described in the story he told, sounds like the same stare he gave the minor(mike? Michael? Something like that) that had killed the other minor, one that's says I'm willing to match you, I'm not afraid. For me that story was told, so later when we see Caleb glaring up at Loomis its to make a point, its supposed to resonate with audience. There will be strife between the two men as long as there both alive.
2) Loomis debates suicide: Looks to me like Loomis was about to jump off the cliff into the water, when he stepped to edge of the toxic waterfall cliff. Why would he debate such a thing? Hmm maybe because he killed Caleb. I know some believe he was looking for Calebs body r the suit, that's possible. Still says Calebs dead.
3) Ann's grief: Ann was saddened to hear Caleb had "left" but I believe she saw right through Loomis. And realized he had in fact killed Caleb, he didn't even seem believable like he meant the words, it was almost like he was telling her he killed Caleb nicely.
4) The ending scene
5) Why would Caleb leave in such a hurry, with no supplies, food or water? Without saying goodbye to Ann? After having found a perfect place to stay and helping build the wheel?
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Personally I thought the movie started to suggest one but then implied the other. I liked the idea that Loomis caught the rope twice meaning that he was incapable of killing him, it wasn't his nature. I liked the smug expression that meant Caleb knew he was safe.
Then the film implied he did kill him. But with no details. I think the film was just badly done.
Loomis caught the rope twice meaning that he was incapable of killing him, it wasn't his nature.
Right after he pulled him up and saved him the first time, Loomis got a look on his face like why did I do that? All my problems could have been solved. He undid the rope (so there was no backup), and the second time we did not see him save him. He started to, but he stopped while Caleb was still hanging, needing a pull to stop from dropping.
I didn't think it needed more details. Caleb would make this comfortable, nice life with Ann into an an uncomfortable, difficult situation for Loomis. He decided to get rid of the problem.
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Personally I thought the movie started to suggest one but then implied the other. I liked the idea that Loomis caught the rope twice meaning that he was incapable of killing him, it wasn't his nature. I liked the smug expression that meant Caleb knew he was safe.
Then the film implied he did kill him. But with no details. I think the film was just badly done.
Agreed
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We try but we don't belong...
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I don't think he did kill him. I think he probably gave him an ultimatum. "I will save you, if you leave" I also think Caleb would have given his word and keep it, being he was a religious man. That and knowing he would always have to watch his back if he stayed.
shareI don't think caleb was all that religious to begin with. Loomis's face at the end was very guilty, guilty that he'd just killed a man out of jealousy.
"Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions"
Caleb worships Robbie.
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And it makes sense to you that Caleb would just march to his death? No matter that Loomis just saved him, Caleb wouldn't leave. It absolutely doesn't fit Caleb's character that he would sacrifice his life just to keep a word.
Basically, there are no reasonable explanations to what happened there.
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Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.
Yes. "Agree to leave, or I'll let go of the rope."
I'm surprised to not see others agreeing with you. See my post in reply to the O.P. for how much sense this makes.
Prepare your minds for a new scale of physical, scientific values, gentlemen.share
Ann certainly thought he had .
She pushed the book behind the glass and glass fell on the floor.
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Because this movie is for contemplative viewers. Every scene has a meaning to it.
"If you are good at something. Never do it for free." - Joker
EXACTLY. I don't know how anyone could have any doubt after seeing that.
sharewow.... a good one.
Never thought there maybe a connection of "Ann pushed the book behind the glass and glass fell on the floor" scene.
I think John killed Caleb.
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Loomis already had mentioned to Ann that his suit wasn't fully protective, but Caleb didn't know that before he got into it and went down. When Caled looked back he showed signs of sickness, maybe he succumbed to radiation?
Loomis lied to her so he can start over with Ann. Besides, he also did mention why he chose to travel on mud paths and railroads - he didnt want to stumble across a group of other survivors. It is also his will that Ann is better off with him alone in he countryside.
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