Julian - Hellcats (2010) Discussion

[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

I'm really not. I had a thing with a professor in college, and I know other people who did, as well. No coercion, not necessarily the professor's idea, rarely any adverse consequences. Although the situation has the potential for abuse, I think it's much more common than some people admit, and I think it's been demonized too much. As a matter of fact, I actually taught undergrads when I was a grad student, and after the course ended and the grades were posted, one of my students, who had been patiently waiting until it would be ethical, asked me out. He was crestfallen when I said no, and you know what? I wish I had said yes. He was very attractive, very mature, and very very nice.

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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[–] lynsey_poushay 13 years ago

Wow, I am now a grad student and can honestly say I don't know of a single person who has ever gotten involved with a professor. Not really sure I would classify it as "common." Grad/undergrad students, however, I have seen plenty of (never done it myself, not because of any moral issues just the situation never came up).

Just to clarify, my issue with Marty isn't that he is/was her prof but that they are nowhere near each other age, maturity, or lifestyle (older man with kid, pre law student who lives with her cheer team). And where him being her prof is a concerned, I mean more along the lines any school regulations that would be an issue or classmates finding out and claiming there was a bias, etc. Not that a male prof being with a student automatically means she is somehow being taken advantage of.

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[–] forksforrests 7 years ago

I know other people who did, as well. No coercion, not necessarily the professor's idea, rarely any adverse consequences. Although the situation has the potential for abuse, I think it's much more common than some people admit, and I think it's been demonized too much.

 wow, i reaaaally had a different undergrad experience then...

A rose is just a rose.

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[–] gossipgirlrockstar 13 years ago

I'm always creeped out when people date people a decade or more older when they are in their 20s. Maybe if she was independent( had a job, didn't live with her mom and didn't have young friends). Plus I just can't stand anyone dating a teacher in their school. Plus the whole psychological reasons behind it(daddy issues) makes it nauseating for me.

A cynic is just a romantic who has seen the world.

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[–] LemonBars 13 years ago

She pursued him. He's not the aggressor here. He even let her walk away when younger men would have been calling her a tease.

Marti was taking care of her mom, paying the bills, managing the landlord etc for years. She is in the dorm at Lancer because that's part of the cheerleader package for the scholarship--builds community and team spirit. She's far more mature in many ways than other 21 year olds.

Neither did anything while he was her teacher. Only after he left teaching (and when she sought him out) did they become involved. I think she knows what she wants and pursues it. Even when confronted with the reality of his separation, a soon to be ex, and his young daughter she dealt with it maturely. She didn't run crying into the night or stage a scene. She did push him for clarification about how he felt about her and their dating. She did accept (maybe she didn't like it) his position on bringing her into his daughter's life.

This is probably her first mature relationship.

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[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

Points well taken.

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

I don't think they have to make Julian a dog to end the relationship. Marti can just decide she isn't ready to handle all his stuff, that she has a tiger by the tail.

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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[–] Pinky_and_Chicolini 13 years ago

I wouldn't worry about the 21/41 thing per se

My own experience is that people, especially girls, who are 18-23 wind up hooking up with, dating, or being in serious relationship with young men about 10 years older all the time... literally, about half the girls I know, at some point in their undergrad careers or soon thereafter wound up in a relationship with a guy about 10 years older. The biggest age difference where I thought the relationship was healthy where the younger person was quite young was 19/35, but she (the 19 year old) was mature for her age and the 35 year old guy was still a 'kid' anyway.

So, despite this being a larger age difference than I am familiar with in terms of healthy relationships, the age difference, itself, doesn't bother me at all.

The dynamic, seeing them relate to each other, it doesn't look like a relationship between peers. The relationships I have knowledge of that I mention in the above paragraph... the 19/29 relationships, or even the 19/35 one, they were both kids. They were a "young couple" at least in how they approached the world. The way Marti and Julian treat each other does not seem to be a relationship between people who are viewing each other as peers. I fully believe even 17 year olds can decide for themselves who to date, period. However, I was once friends with a 17 year old girl who was dating her 44 year old violin teacher... and it just felt wrong. Not because he looked older than her or because of the numbers game, but because they weren't peers; he was in charge. I'm not saying that is fully what is being displayed here, but this also isn't a 19 year old undergrad kid and a 29 year old grad student kid going out -- which I wouldn't give a second thought to.

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[–] darkntwisty 13 years ago

I am only creeped out by people who judge who other people are dating based on age, religion, race etc. If it's not your thing, it's fine. I don't think we can judge whether the dynamic is unhealthy/not balanced without being in the situation. I'm rarely attracted to guys my own age but won't date people just to suit other people's preference. Like what Marty said, he's not dating the onlookers, he's dating her.

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[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

The way Marti and Julian treat each other does not seem to be a relationship between people who are viewing each other as peers.

I know what you mean, and I think it's because they don't laugh much. They have heat and intellectual sympathy to spare, and they can't keep their hands off each other, but they're still not comfortable enough with their differences to be silly. If they laughed more, it would erase both the hierarchical difference and the age difference to a considerable extent.

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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[–] lynsey_poushay 13 years ago

I'm not sure I really explained myself well, but this is what I was getting at. It's not that I even care how old he is, it's the dynamic of the relationship that puts me off. And that Wanda seems all for it JUST BECAUSE he is older, not because they are suited for each other.

Also, I stand by my statement that Marti is not a mature 21 year old, she is very typical for her age. Yes, she has taken on a care taker role with Wanda through necessity, but I don't see her any more mature in that respect than other students who take care of their own tuition and living expenses. She is stubborn, selfish, self righteous and unable to determine when she needs help. Things that make her a good protagonist for a TV show but don't make her a mature adult. She has tons left to figure out about life.

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[–] elle-07 13 years ago

I'm not creeped out by it, maybe because I tend to have a thing for older guys. But I think that they made a mistake giving Julian a kid.

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[–] anna_soeuriste 13 years ago

I think it's one of their best ideas, they are both interesting on screen together and we get why they like eachother (which is more than what we can say for the other couples on this show).

They should have gone for that earlier instead of that insipid Dan-Marti-Savanah triangle, but i guess that as long as she was his student, it would have been more awkward.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

The way that happened, them flinging themselves into one another's arms, I don't think he needed to say "Whoa, I'm still technically married and have the cutest little girl, whom you can't meet just yet." It was too animal a moment. She didn't come to him to tell him she was sweet on him and wanted to take their relationship to the next level. It seemed to be a pure booty call. But afterwards, he should have told her. Certainly he should have told her on the date he cancelled.

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] LemonBars 13 years ago

They've stated she's 21 from the beginning. Early on Matt talked about Marti's 21st birthday and hinted at something Wanda did during it to Savannah during that whole "why Wanda going to the sectional competition would be a bad idea" conversation.

And recently she mentioned being 21 again. So yes there is an age gap, but no, she's not a teenager. And she's an independent and mature 21 year old at that.

ETA: except when it comes to "relationships" where she seems to be ok with shallow, physical based hook-ups. Dan, Lewis, Dan . . .

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

And in fact, his baggage may turn out to be too much for Marti. Clearly they have to break up for some reason or other, even if the show is renewed and Gale Harold keeps recurring. He can't be a regular on both series, and he can hardly be Marti's boyfriend and appear on the show as little as he has up to now.

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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[–] Barbara2001 13 years ago

Well, Aly didnt much like kissing Gale--she covered for it by saying that she preferred the Dan/Marti relationship but I think Gale might just have been too much for her:)

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[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

Are you being facetious? The first thing she said was that with Gale there was a "level of experience" (to me that means he's a more sophisticated kisser). As for preferring the Dan relationship for her character, I don't think that's a cover-up. Although I don't believe she has the same onscreen heat with Matt Barr, their onscreen camaraderie is considerable, and it doesn't rattle with interference from age difference, an ex-wife, a child, or differing levels of accomplishment. Quite likely she simply thinks Julian is too much for Marti, not Gale too much for Aly. Many would agree with her. I am far from inferring that she disliked kissing Gale (or that she especially likes kissing Matt Barr, who humorously injected something in the interview about being a great kisser when she did not praise his kissing). I have no idea what her personal feelings are. Maybe she likes kissing both actors, or maybe she dislikes kissing both, or maybe she dislikes kissing any man she doesn't intend to marry, but made the decision to be an actress and feels she has to tough it out.

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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[–] Barbara2001 13 years ago

I wasnt being facetious at all. I had no idea what she meant by the "level of experience" remark--it just seemed that she switched to how she feels about the two different relationships for Marti instead of really answering the question.

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[–] danivl1-1 13 years ago

As a Gale fan I can't imagine anyone being kissed by him would find him lacking so I chose to believe that Aly's comment was more a cover up of how much she, Aly, liked kissing Gale. She was certainly up to the task. Whether she's really comfortable or not kissing actors for her job, she jumped right in and gave as good as she got. Gale got lucky. He's had other female co-stars that weren't nearly as good as Aly. Now Aly may believe that Marti is better suited for Dan story wise, but her scenes with Julian aren't making a convincing argument for that.

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[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

Actually, if Aly feels Marti is better suited for Dan, that feeling is revving up her acting with Gale. She is playing strong strong attraction, serious respect, awe, maybe a bit of love in there, but great trepidation, and so is Gale. They are both treating one another like forbidden fruit, even as they take bite after bite. It's one of the things that makes their scenes so (uncharacteristically, for this show) dramatic and nuanced and believable. They are playing more than one emotion at the same time. So I don't think she's doing okay in spite of her actress's judgment that she's playing a character better suited to somebody else. I think she's doing okay, in part, because of it.

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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[–] danivl1-1 13 years ago

She is playing strong strong attraction, serious respect, awe, maybe a bit of love in there, but great trepidation, and so is Gale. They are both treating one another like forbidden fruit, even as they take bite after bite. It's one of the things that makes their scenes so (uncharacteristically, for this show) dramatic and nuanced and believable. They are playing more than one emotion at the same time.

I agree with all of these points. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. But I don't believe that Aly is letting what she thinks is best in the long run interfere with how Marti is responding to Julian at the moment. I think she and Gale are both doing more than okay in expressing everything you said.

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[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

I agree with that too. The thing is, it's all right for a character to make a mistake. True, if the mistake is particularly stupid, and not easily explicable, it might undermine our respect for the character.

Or if it's explicable but very heedless and selfish and has cruel consequences for others, the same thing might occur. Marti's hookup with Dan was in the latter category, and since the viewers were already a little unsold on Marti, it was probably a miscalculation on the show-runners' parts.

But I think it's okay, even if some of the viewers don't think Marti should be with Julian, for Marti to be with Julian, at least for a while. Julian isn't an unworthy object. He doesn't belong to anybody else we know or care about. His attractions are readily apparent. The obstacles to their relationship, though they exist, are not so huge as to make a happy outcome an absurdity.

Those who say "don't do it, or you'll be sorry" have been placed in the situation of suspense. They believe there will be an unhappy outcome, and they have the interest of anticipating it. Likewise, those who want the couple to succeed. They have been presented with the difficulties as well as the delights, and they are in suspense as well.

This is not a bad thing. Those who say "don't do it because it sends a bad message" may have a point, sociologically speaking (though they really shouldn't be so inattentive to the fact that Julian is not teaching now, is not on the permanent faculty, and Marti is a very mature 21), but it isn't as important a point as this: drama's first rule is to hold our interest.

Is our interest not held? I would venture to say that even the "ewwww" crowd is interested. On this board there are very interested people saying you should never sleep with somebody 20 years older, or you should never sleep with your teacher, or you should never sleep with anybody legally separated, or you should never, at such a young age, get involved with somebody's parent.

But they are not, by and large, saying this couple has no chemistry. And they sure don't seem to be bored.

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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[–] Barbara2001 13 years ago

"This is not a bad thing. Those who say "don't do it because it sends a bad message" may have a point, sociologically speaking (though they really shouldn't be so inattentive to the fact that Julian is not teaching now, is not on the permanent faculty, and Marti is a very mature 21), but it isn't as important a point as this: drama's first rule is to hold our interest. "

I dont recall the "rules" in colleges about sleeping with a professor. As far as I can remember it was all right as long as you were no longer their student. I dont think Marti's age has anything to do with it. It could be an adult education class and it would still be frowned upon if the student was sleeping with the teacher. It's not only the power differential but also the inevitable appearance of favoritism by the other students.

"Is our interest not held? I would venture to say that even the "ewwww" crowd is interested. On this board there are very interested people saying you should never sleep with somebody 20 years older, or you should never sleep with your teacher, or you should never sleep with anybody legally separated, or you should never, at such a young age, get involved with somebody's parent.

But they are not, by and large, saying this couple has no chemistry. And they sure don't seem to be bored. "

Not bored but I think, and I havent had a chance to read all of the comments on this board, that it may only be susieitalia and me who dont feel the chemistry between Julian and Marti.

Maybe it's just my mood of late:(

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[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

I'm sure there are many people in the world besides you and susie who don't feel the chemistry, but as I look here and in the CW lounge and on Twitter, the majority seem to feel it. "By and large," which I was careful to use, is an exception plenty wide enough for you and susie and quite a lot of other people.

As for the rules about sleeping with professors, I'm sure it varies from institution to institution, but it's my understanding that the rule has gotten broader and stricter, not less so, since I was in college. However, Julian seems to be adjunct faculty: an attorney of some reputation who was engaged to teach a pre-law seminar. If I'm not mistaken, he's teaching nobody now, just practicing law. Even if Lancer has a blanket rule of no faculty/student fraternization, they can't touch Julian when he's no longer in their employ. Their only recourse would be not to engage him again.

And I suspect Lancer, like most other universities, prefers not to borrow trouble. If something isn't a scandal and nobody's hackles are being raised over it, they'd rather not form an Inquisition over it. It's perfectly well known to anybody who's been to college that this stuff happens quite a lot. I suspect it even happens at Liberty and Bob Jones University and Brigham Young, the only difference being that the foofaraw when it comes to light is exponentially bigger.

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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[–] Barbara2001 13 years ago

"foofaraw"?
That's the first time I've ever seen that word in print;)

I wasnt worried about Julian getting in trouble for sleeping with Marti but if their particular situation, even with him not being her teacher any more, did raise hackles, I'd worry less about Julian and more about Marti getting disciplined, even her scholorship taken away

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[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

it just seemed that she switched to how she feels about the two different relationships for Marti instead of really answering the question.

Well it isn't exactly the easiest question to answer tactfully, especially with Matt Barr (and he was) right at your elbow. But I certainly didn't think she was knocking Gale on any level. At the end of the day, it's screen kissing. He's not slipping her tongue, and they're both very conscious of whose nose is on the camera side. So asking her the question as if she's comparing two actual lovers is a little flippant. If she happens to have a personal yen for one or the other of them, it might give the scene a little something extra. But if neither one of them is somebody you think of lustfully, your first reaction might be to compare them as technicians. And it's not a knock on Gale if she isn't in lust for him. They've been working together for some time now, and even if he made her pant the first day, they might have settled into some other kind of relationship where he keeps her in stitches all day with elephant jokes. Who knows?

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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[–] Barbara2001 13 years ago

Not to belabour this and sure, she was in a delicate position but when she mentioned "Gale's" age, not Julian's, I took it to mean that kissing him wasnt as exciting as it might have been with a younger man ( "older, intellect versus young, raw passion...you choose").

Many actors when they express their feelings, in more personal interviews done on regular interview shows like Piers Morgan, about on -screen sex, admit that often, they get turned on by it no matter how "technical" the setting.

I find it difficult to imagine that anyone wouldnt be very pleased to kiss Gale but such are the follies of the young:) I had a huge crush on one of my English professors in college but I dont know how I would have reacted if faced with a chance to kiss him.

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[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

I guess it all depends on whether you assume a greater "level of experience" is a euphemism for longer in the tooth, and that this equates to less exciting. Take it any way you like. I don't interpret it that way, but if I did, I'd have to conclude that she's sending a rude coded message. She's doesn't seem to me like that kind of girl. Also, she specifically calls the dramatic situation, from the audience's point of view, "interesting and sexy."

I certainly think you could get turned on kissing another actor -- or simply having lunch with another actor -- if that other actor happens to turn you on. If not, not. Even if Gale's your type, if you know you're not his, kissing him in a scene might not be a turn-on at all. It might tend to be rather a chilly experience, just because of the baggage you bring to it. If you have a one-sided case on somebody you have to kiss professionally, it could be a mortifying embarrassment.

Anyway, I certainly don't think every onscreen clinch is a turn-on just because we're wired that way. I recall an anecdote Bette Davis told, of when she was a young actress and had to be a scene partner for a long series of leading-man auditions, in which the guy basically lay on top of her: a rather intimate situation. She was far from enjoying it, until one of them turned out to be an unknown fellow named Henry Fonda.

"This," she said to herself, "is really not too bad."

And by the way, you quote this:

"older, intellect versus young, raw passion...you choose"

as if Michalka had said it. According to the article I read, it was said by Matt Barr. Here's the fuller text:

"With Gale Harold, there's this maturity and there's this kind of taboo relationship between the two of them that makes it really interesting and sexy," she adds. "The fact that Marti is younger than Julian, but she's mature for her age and there is that connection with the intelligence level and the intellect, [so it] makes sense for them to actually have a relationship."

The relationship is unlikely to evolve into anything particularly serious -- and not just because Harold has a date with "The Secret Circle" next season. (Yes, it looks like we may lose him just as things get interesting.) Julian's past gets in the way.

"She kind of comes around, like wow, I kind of have to grow up myself if I'm going to be able to date a man like Julian," Michalka says. "He has a past and he has things that are grown-up issues that I'm not even dealing with at my age."

Executive producer Kevin Murphy says that the relationship between Marti and Dan (Matt Barr) is still going to be explored further, but for right now, that romance has been shelved and we aren't likely to see too much development this season.

Michalka, however, is firmly rooting for Dan and Marti to end up together. When asked about kissing Harold in comparison to kissing co-star Barr, she cracks up laughing.

"There's an age difference," she says, "and an experience level. No, I'm just kidding. [Gale]'s like 41. It's a little bit different. It's funny because for me personally, as a character choice, I like Dan and Marti together. I don't know how to describe it without it sounding inappropriate, but there's a bit of a turn on with Marti and Dan being together. You want that. Even as this strange, detached actor, you're like 'Yes, get together!' You get really attached to the character and you start to want certain things for the character. You want Marti and Dan to have that relationship because they're like Yin and yang to each other."

"And because Dan's a great kisser," adds Barr. "Older, intellect versus young, raw passion... you choose."

Anyway, the reporter didn't seem to think Aly was dissing Gale. The lead is:

'Hellcats' Aly Michalka talks kissing Gale Harold: The taboo makes it 'really interesting and sexy'

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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[–] Barbara2001 13 years ago

"I guess it all depends on whether you assume a greater 'level of experience' is a euphemism for longer in the tooth, and that this equates to less exciting. Take it any way you like. I don't interpret it that way, but if I did, I'd have to conclude that she's sending a rude coded message. She's doesn't seem to me like that kind of girl. Also, she specifically calls the dramatic situation, from the audience's point of view, 'interesting and sexy.' "

It wasnt the "level of experience" remark I was reacting to, it was the mention of Gale's age.

I think it's very different, having lunch with another actor, and having actual physical "touching" of erogenous zones.

Not being an actor I have no idea how well you can resist a personal reaction to kissing another actor.
According to Gale and many other talented actors , that's what acting is all about.
However, it depends on how good an actor you are. Obviously actors like Chris Potter and Hal Sparks cant remove themselves from their reactions.

I dont know how good an actor Aly is but I am aware that there is a sort of cultural taboo against kissing/having sex with someone "older" ...how much older, I'm not sure.

I had a friend who stopped seeing his girl friend when he found out she had previously had sex with a 60 year old man...she was in her early 30's.

Obviously we are seeing this differently. I didnt take her remark as rude, more like it just slipped out.

Shirley McLaine btw, speaks to this very issue in her new book, don't recall the name of it, I just saw her on an interview show. She speaks of many actors that she knows, including herself, who got carried away in "love scenes" . And there's a tale about Liz Taylor kissing Richard Burton during the filming of Cleopatra way beyond when the director called "cut":)

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[–] cealaok-1 13 years ago

I really was going to stay out of this but I just can't anymore. My husband was more than 20 years older than I. We met when I was 14 and he waiting until I was 18 to marry me. Like Julian, he came with baggage...3 of them. My oldest step daughter was just barely 15 at that time. Somehow we managed to raise his 3, my 1 and one of our own. They all still speak to each other and it's amazing how much they are alike when they are together.

The last thing my husband said to me before he slipped into his final coma and died of cancer was, "I wish I could have made love to you just one more time."

I wish the same thing and will continue to do so until the day I die. When it is all said and done, love doesn't respect age or race or religion. It just is and if you are lucky enough to experience it hang on to it for all you're worth.

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[–] Barbara2001 13 years ago

Sorry for your loss. I hope it didnt sound as if I was opposed to romance with younger/older loves, I'm not at all.

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[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

Well his age goes with the "level of experience" remark and explains what the hell she's talking about. He actually is 41, it's not an unmentionable number.

And nobody is saying you can't get carried away in a love scene, but I still deny that it's inevitable. Whether Gale's age is an impediment to Aly doing so, I have no idea, and the interview does nothing to illuminate it for me. I can only reiterate that I do not find the interview insulting to Gale on its face, so I have no reason to speculate about whether she insulted him wittingly or unwittingly. I just don't take it that way. And again, the other part of it you object to was said by Matt Barr, and obviously with tongue in cheek.

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ducdebrabant 13 years ago

According to VARIETY:

CW zeros in on series orders
Dramas 'Hart of Dixie,' 'Secret Circle' seen as sure things
By Cynthia Littleton

The CW is zeroing in on its new series pickups, with "Hart of Dixie" and "Secret Circle" looking like sure things.

The C-Dub is also expected to bring Sarah Michelle Gellar back to the network with the pilot "Ringer" nabbed from CBS' development slate. Reality skein "H8R," from producer Lisa Gregorish-Dempsey, is also said to be close to an order.

Word is there may still be a shot for zombie drama "Awakening."

"Hart of Dixie," from Warner Bros. TV and Josh Schwartz and Stephanie Savage's Fake Empire banner, stars Rachel Bilson as a New York doctor who faces culture shock when she inherits a small-town practice.

"Secret Circle" also comes from WBTV and a prominent CW showrunner, "Vampire Diaries' " Kevin Williamson. It centers on a young woman who moves to a new town and discovers she's a witch.

CW presents its sked to advertisers on Thursday.

The Republican Plan: repeal all reform; collect payoffs; go yachting (but not in the Gulf).

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