I cannot recall a film with a more bleak view of women than this one.Both female leads in this film grovelled and seemed fixated on the dull personna of the Ben Affleck character.The continued dancing of the primary character....might she dance herself to a job maybe instead of moping around.
shareAre you trying to say "misogynistic"?
And of course, the way man is presented on top and victorious in utter happiness. (this is sarcastic as not many in this film seem happy).
Yes, the film puts the women in more traditional roles - but you cannot argue those women don't exist or that their stories shouldn't be told. Not all women are career-oriented and not all want children.
It seems you also missed a large portion of the film where these roles didn't provide anyone happiness, and Neil's realization that he had not "seen her" for who she was until after their marriage dissolved. That he admitted hubris.
Yes, the women groveled before him, but then he finally did likewise at the climax of the film. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqc20CO4zqs&feature=youtu.be
And now I'm trying to say "douche bag."
shareYou analyze it more deeply than I did.The visuals in the film were gorgeous and that is what kept me with it.It.was not my cup of tea sorry but perhaps some of what you say has credence.It would have more of an appeal for perhaps the above it all type of person...the type who would point out a spelling mistake and tell me I missed some great meaning.
shareIt's not an inaccessible film. And I agree that it can come off a bit sexist the way the man is portrayed as dominant, but in line with the film's religious analogy, one must humble oneself before his fellow man. To exhibit strength over another does not make one better. We see throughout the film how this tears Marina apart emotionally - and the audience who likewise cannot penetrate Neil's calm demeanor. We've all been in this type of relationship. Where we just want the person we love to show humility to us, or we've had to do so for another.
share[deleted]
I don't understand this criticism of her frolicking around. She was a ballerina - this is established in the film. Plus, she has bipolar or at least some minor depression. But she is on medication. It's a bit abstract in the film - but Olga at TIFF confirmed it, though I think it's clear in the final cut of the film (i.e. "Why are you sad?" "I'm not").
I am curious what you might have found more developed. I think we got a pretty clear portrait of her.
[deleted]
Her cheating on him wasn't the climax of the film or anything. I'm not sure anymore screen time was needed on that. No one thought the relationship was going well, so her cheating was just the final straw.
But this isn't a matter of an undeveloped character - perhaps undeveloped plot that omitted these details. But I think it's pretty clear the daughter left because Marina fell apart after they left America. When Marina calls Neil, it's clear her life is in despair (at least from her perspective). She's not finding work, not happy, etc. The girl went to live with her dad to escape. And her dad and stepmom seemed to provide more stability.
[deleted]
I wouldn't say they are not well-defined, but not easily defined. They are more enigmatic, especially in their desires. Is Marina really in love with Neil or is she just in love with love or wanting/needing to be love. I would even suggest she might like the polarized relationships - extreme love and extreme anger as opposed to a steady, quiet relationship.
I can understand your point on Marina, but Neil needs to be a cipher. Without this, the film would have been weakened. How can you understand the inexplicability of why relationships fail? Instead of pointing us directly to predispositions or psychological underpinnings we can use to understand - Malick leaves us to decipher for ourselves. He offers a multitude of clues.
I'm not sure what choices she makes that aren't adequately set-up. There was a very clear foundation for her cheating, even though the decision itself might have ultimately been an abrupt choice. This guy clearly showed a flirtation toward her. And as Neil was distant, she probably found herself subconsciously wanting to be seen as desirable to someone, if not Neil. I'd say Neil significantly harmed her self-esteem.
McAdams was a bit underused, but only because I wish they had a reverse shot when her and Marina pass glances. I'm curious to know her perspective in those events. Based on both actresses' comments at TIFF, they did shoot a few scenes together. I'm curious to see a longer cut of the film since it is Malick's shortest film of the past two decades.
But perhaps we don't need anymore. I can imagine what McAdams' thoughts are toward Marina. Marina was living the life she thought she wanted, but was likely better off not having. This is quite summarized in the single shot together as Jane walks with confidence and poised while Marina is wet, disheveled and lost.
Not misogynistic. True, in fact, for many women.
"I think you praise it because you are afraid of being called a racist."
-Master Debater
[deleted]
Just because a film paints a woman in a negative light or offends a woman doesn't mean it's misogynistic.
------:
The crime is life, the sentence is death!
I put this on a month ago because this film did not appeal because I did not like the depiction of women.I dutifully saw it through to the end.It was my opinion,my perception but I saw it thru the realities which were my life.Other posters have tried to give a different take on it which has been helpful.but never thought my observation would lead to all this analysis...something in my inbox more often than not. I may not be as intellectual.as other repliers but man it was certainly not a flattering portrayal of we gals...Thank for responses though
share[deleted]
[deleted]
I'm not saying your opinion is right or wrong, don't feel offended, we're all free to think what we like about the film.
Imo the movie shows all four of the characters as deeply flawed, Neil was a pathetic indecisive man, Father Quintana was a crumbling pillar of strength in a community that needed him most but manages to inspire Neil in the end to find some strength and forgive.
I just think because it painted Marina a slight villain because of her mistake doesn't mean misogyny. Cause ultimately that would mean no Woman can make a mistake or be a villain because it's 'misogyny' when really it's just being human.
Just my 0.02.
------:
The crime is life, the sentence is death!
[deleted]
No problem, I'll not spoil the movie for you but you are close, I definitely enjoy the first half of the movie more than the second half as well.
------:
The crime is life, the sentence is death!
don't agree at all... Malick has this sort of dream state he presents in all his movies... he is not about act1,2,3 with literal interpretation of all the plot events... his films are about connection to the world, our environment and the realities of human events and emotion.
that being said, To the Wonder is less grounded to the viewer than anything else he has done.
back to your point, I didn't see an unflattering portrait of women at all... the characters were all human and imperfect.
Marina had struggles with adaptation to Neil and his Oklahoma life, Neil had struggles with committing to Jane, Jane had struggles with her lot in life and Neil's flaws, Father Quintana had struggles with his profound loneliness and connection to god... all of them struggled, as most people in life do... but at the end, some of them made a step to the wonder... most notably Marina who seemed to finally come out of the darkness.
With art left open to interpretation, there is always a possibility of a certain type of person to express a disgust in it.... we all know a person like this.... who tries to find a slight in everything, and for whom the world will never be right, and feels as if everything is fashioned as to hurt them.
I believe it is grossly unfair to view 'To the Wonder' in this way as it is clearly not biased against anyone, it simply shows common truths about the human condition
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
did you miss 20 minutes of the film immediately prior to the No Tell Motel scene?
their relationship had just about entirely fallen apart, and she claimed to hate him. she was not a woman in love at that point
They'll hang you as sure as 10 dimes will buy a dollar
[deleted]
[deleted]