MovieChat Forums > The Black Power Mixtape 1967-1975 (2011) Discussion > I liked this movie a lot, EXCEPT for...

I liked this movie a lot, EXCEPT for...

posted 12 years ago by shempXIV
20 replies | jump to latest

I thought this was an excellent documentary of a pivotal time is US history, except for the unsubtle way the "concept/notion" of agents of the Federal government "flooding" America ghettos and inner-cities with drugs to neutralize/manipulate the people therein. I'm sorry, but NO ONE FORCED people in these communities to become addicted to drugs! And I know a little about from whence I speak -- my late father was an alcoholic who kept drinking EVEN AFTER he was diagnosed with cirrhosis of the liver! Are the bartenders that served him partly responsible for his alcoholism and/or subsequent illness and death? NO -- their "job" was to sell a "product" and it was my father's "decision" to abuse that product. He KNEW it wan't "good for him" yet he kept drinking all the same! Perhaps the Feds did "channel" drugs into African-American communities but did the people have to TAKE the drugs? If you believe that the horrible conditions of their lives DID force them, then bars and liquor stores ARE RESPONSIBLE for alcoholism! (Deaths caused by alcohol - and smoking - are GREATER IN NUMBER than drug overdoses - if you factor in drunk-driving deaths and crimes committed while drunk. So, do we make alcohol illegal again? After all, it worked so well before.)

Besides, were the dealers of drugs in these communities African-American?

I'm a believer in personal responsibility -- and no matter how AWFUL life gets, getting drunk and/or high on a continuous basis is NOT a viable solution to ANY problem. If you want to strike back at The Man, don't use poison to get high and take responsible, constructive action(s).

[–] candypants42 12 years ago

Perhaps the Feds did "channel" drugs into African-American communities but did the people have to TAKE the drugs? If you believe that the horrible conditions of their lives DID force them, then bars and liquor stores ARE RESPONSIBLE for alcoholism!

Just because an individual is responsible for his/her own choices it doesn't mean that you shouldn't question political decisions that affect everyone. You can't look at this at these issues solely at an individual basis and judge everyone who've made the wrong decision, people who are poor and come into contact with these substances in their pre-teens are clearly more vulnerable to drugs, and not because thay choose to be.

The bars and liquor stores aren't responsible, but the politicians who make decisions that allow structural opression and poverty to dominate society are.

I don't know if this actually happened, but a government decision to ship in large emounts of illegal drugs to certain areas in order to de-militize the black community is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin..

[–] shempXIV 12 years ago

re: "...people who are poor and come into contact with these substances in their pre-teens are clearly more vulnerable to drugs, and not because thay choose to be."

Yes, but what of those that came "into contact with these substances" that DID NOT become addicts? What of youth of other ethnicities that came from poor or dysfunctional backgrounds that were in proximity of drugs? Where were the PARENTS of these children?

We may never know for certain if the US gov't intentionally channeled drugs into African-American communities, but to pin ALL the blame on a gov't conspiracy is the same as entirely discounting/denying personal responsibility.

[–] candypants42 12 years ago

We may never know for certain if the US gov't intentionally channeled drugs into African-American communities, but to pin ALL the blame on a gov't conspiracy is the same as entirely discounting/denying personal responsibility.

That's not what I'm trying to do, and I don't think the film did either, but to view every case of addiction as a separate incident and put all the blame on the individual is even more misleading. Whether or not the government actually created the drug problem they obviously didn't handle in very well, partly because they didn't give a sh!t.

[–] shempXIV 12 years ago

re: "Whether or not the government actually created the drug problem they obviously didn't handle in very well, partly because they didn't give a sh!t."

NO ARGUMENT there.

[–] candypants42 12 years ago

I'm arguing that to some extent one CAN blame the government. The government has a responibility to serve the people and see that the law is enforced. I'm guessing they didn't care because it wasn't taken care of, and because most people, like yourself, prefer to see addiction as a personal choice for lazy people and not a symptom of a deeper problem. Of course it's a choice, but what is it that makes someone choose it?

[–] shempXIV 12 years ago

re: "but what is it that makes someone choose it?" (by "it" I take you mean addiction to drugs, alcohol, etc.)

THAT IS the million-dollar question! But at some point, personal responsibility has to enter the picture. (Did the gov't or Madison Avenue "make" my father become an alcoholic?)

[–] david38091 12 years ago

Odd how people come on these sites talking about personal responsibility when it comes to blacks but never to whites. Yet whites at that time were the ones doing all the discriminating and oppression. Perhaps if whites would have been just as eager to take personal responsibility we wouldn't have had and continue to have all the racial disparities in America.

[–] shempXIV 12 years ago

I referred to "personal responsibility" for ONE'S OWN ACTIONS.

Are you suggesting the all white Americans "take responsibility" for the actions of their racist ancestors? What about those Americans whose forebears had no part in oppressing African-Americans? What about the white Americans that DID take some responsibility in the 1950s & '60s by taking part in the Civil Rights marches & struggles? I had a friend (lots older than I) that was a "freedom rider" in the '60s - he went down to purposely break the Jim Crow laws & got arrested for it.

If white people try to "help" they are thought of as patronizing or just acting out of "guilt" - if white people do "nothing" they are, as you imply, not taking any responsibility. (I believe the expression is, "Ya can't win" or "Damned if we do, damned if we don't.")

[–] david38091 12 years ago

LOL. Notice how defensive you got when I talked about WHITE people taking personal responsibility. That was my point. Strange how whites are a monolithic group when it's something positive like supporting civil rights but it's "Ya can't win" or "Damned if we do, damned if we don't" when it's something negative like racism and racial oppression. Your response sounds like a typical right wing conservative/teabag troll reply to charges of racism. I'm sure you know the type. Most white people in American did NOT support civil rights or other gains by black people. In 2012 there are calls of states rights to cheering white mobs to roll back advances of blacks by white candidates running for president.

Your original post and reply is trying to marginalize white racism by the US government. You deflect the racist acts of the government back onto the people who were victimized by it. If certain fractions in the government pushed drugs in black communities personal responsibility for blacks has nothing to do with it. The same deterioration in black communities would have happened in white communities if the same thing happened. With drugs comes crime, many people who buy the drugs come from outside the community both white and black, middle class and lower class. It's a well known fact that law enforcement ignored the drug problem in black communities because it was not thought of as a "white problem". If the government did the same thing to a white suburban or working class communities crime in those communities would rise, property values would go down, the quality of life would be lowered, home owners would move out and so on.

"If white people try to "help" they are thought of as patronizing or just acting out of "guilt" - if white people do "nothing" they are, as you imply, not taking any responsibility"

WTF are you talking about??? LOL What in your statement is helping anything other than rationalizing institutionalize racism by the US government? It's a known fact that the government has a history of these sort of despicable acts. You obviously never heard of the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment. My statement of personal responsibility for whites is about accepting the FACT that white racism and oppression caused the un-level playing field that black Americans are still feeling to this day.

"What about the white Americans that DID take some responsibility in the 1950s & '60s by taking part in the Civil Rights marches & struggles? I had a friend (lots older than I) that was a "freedom rider" in the '60s - he went down to purposely break the Jim Crow laws & got arrested for it"

As a black man I don't take credit for my race positive contributions the way you do as a white man but I think it's safe to say YOUR type of "help" is NOT needed. Those "white Americans that DID take some responsibility in the 1950s & '60s by taking part in the Civil Rights marches & struggles" would be insulted by YOU. Your so called friend "that was a freedom rider in the '60s - he went down to purposely break the Jim Crow laws & got arrested for it" would be insulted by your oversimplifying the serious effects of racism in American on blacks by the government. I guess you said that as if to say black people owe whites a debt of gratitude. The 400 of years of free labor in building this country should take care of that bill.

Spouting about personal responsibility is a insult and dishonest to charges of government involvement in pushing drugs on black communities. Of course EVERYONE should take personal responsibility...not just black people.

[–] shempXIV 12 years ago

I WAS NOT trying to "take credit for" or "marginalize" ANYTHING. I was stating an opinion...and don't try to LABEL ME as a "typical right wing conservative/teabag" type, because I am not. That's a BIG assumption on YOUR part! Politically, I am what I am: a mixture of Karl & Graucho Marx and George McGovern, and I CAN'T STAND clowns like Ron Paul or Newt Gingflab.

As for most of your points, you are absolutely correct about the institutionalized racism in the USA, and yes, there WERE WHITE ****oles CHEERING when civil rights marchers got hosed & beaten. That's because they were racists AND ****oles. But do you think that there weren't any white people that were SICKENED and DISGUSTED by what they saw, as well? Or do ALL WHITES bear "collective guilt"?

My point remains: Nobody "forces" anyone to be an addict, & I don't care if the "substance" is heroin, alcohol, or prescription drugs (the latter two are LEGAL, btw). If I sell or give you a gun & you commit a crime with that gun, am I responsible? THAT is my only point re: "personal responsibility."

[–] david38091 12 years ago

"do ALL WHITES bear "collective guilt"

No where in these comments am I or anyone holding YOU as a white man responsible for anything. You are the one who keeps talking about WHITE GUILT. My first comment was about how the term personal responsibility is always applied to blacks but rarely if ever for whites. Personal responsibility is NOT EXCLUSIVE to black people. You proved my point twice by getting defensive when I mention personal responsibility for whites. You interpret this as "white guilt". No one can make you feel guilt unless you have something to feel guilt for. You stated your opinion but if I as a black man state mines and others state theirs you cry white guilt??? The mention of white racism is automatically intrepid as someone trying to make you as a white man feel guilty?? This is the reason I saw you as a "typical right wing conservative/teabag" type.

As I stated if there were evidence OR a suspicion that the United States government intentional pushed drugs into WHITE working class communities YOU would have NEVER said anything about personal responsibility. As I stated drugs attract criminals both white and black from outside communities. Drugs lower property values/tax base, drives out hard working citizens. It overall destroys communities not to mention the personal toll on human beings. The additional influx of drugs was beyond the scope of already poor black communities to handle. That would have been the federal government's intention. Seeing that local law enforcement saw drugs as a "black problem" personal responsibility was not the issue. Of course personal responsibility is a legitimate issue for ALL but should not be part of a discussion to minimize institutionalize racism by the US government. IMO that's what you were doing in your comments.

Ever since hypocritical Bill Cosby talked about the serious issues of the black poor mainly to deflect attention from his own despicable behavior, it's become fashionable for many whites and some blacks to throw out the personal responsibility card. There are a multitude of issues where personal responsibility applies to poor blacks AND to all people. BUT IMO THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT suspected involvement in pushing drugs into poor black communities is NOT one of them. We will agree to disagree.

[–] shempXIV 12 years ago

re: "...As I stated if there were evidence OR a suspicion that the United States government intentional pushed drugs into WHITE working class communities YOU would have NEVER said anything about personal responsibility."

WRONG!!!! My father was a devoted alcoholic who told me with a straight face that, "You can't be an alcoholic on beer!" (However, his cirrhosis of the liver must've been the result of too much raisin bran & Aqua Velva.) I had a acquaintanceship with a guy that got drunk, got behind the wheel of his car, got into a wreck, and he had to sell his record collection to partly pay for damages...when I expressed my displeasure with this state of affairs -- like, "How could he be so ****ing stupid?" -- a mutual friend said (whined, actually) in his defense, "Well, he drinks so much because he's unhappy with his life!" I countered, "OK, his getting loaded on a consistent basis, getting behind the wheel and getting into a auto accident (which could've killed him and/or someone else, btw) is going to "help" exactly HOW?!?" I've know several alcohol and drug abusers [with varying shades of melanin) and for the most part, their troubles are NEVER THEIR OWN FAULT.

Personally, I think many "demonized" drugs should be LEGAL -- there is a difference between "use" and "abuse" and humanity has always found ways to get high, whether it's moonshine, opium, coca leaves, absinthe, or what-ever. I know some people that *can't have a good time* unless "something" is in their hand. But getting high to the point where you can't function is DUMB and SELF-DESTRUCTIVE, regardless of what social strata (or hue) you come from.

[–] shempXIV 12 years ago

re: "...As I stated if there were evidence OR a suspicion that the United States government intentional pushed drugs into WHITE working class communities YOU would have NEVER said anything about personal responsibility."

WRONG!!!! My father was a devoted alcoholic who told me with a straight face that, "You can't be an alcoholic on beer!" (However, his cirrhosis of the liver must've been the result of too much raisin bran & Aqua Velva.) I had a acquaintanceship with a (very pale) guy that got drunk, got behind the wheel of his car, got into a wreck, and he had to sell his record collection to partly pay for damages...when I expressed my displeasure with this state of affairs -- like, "How could he be so ****ing stupid?" -- a mutual friend said (whined, actually) in his defense, "Well, he drinks so much because he's unhappy with his life!" I countered, "OK, his getting loaded on a consistent basis, getting behind the wheel and getting into a auto accident (which could've killed him and/or someone else, btw) is going to "help" exactly HOW?!?" I've know several alcohol and drug abusers [with varying shades of melanin) and for the most part, their troubles are NEVER THEIR OWN FAULT.

Personally, I think many "demonized" drugs should be LEGAL -- there is a difference between "use" and "abuse" and humanity has always found ways to get high, whether it's moonshine, opium, coca leaves, absinthe, or what-ever. I know some people that *can't have a good time* unless "something" is in their hand. But getting high to the point where you can't function is DUMB and SELF-DESTRUCTIVE, regardless of what social strata (or hue) you come from.

[–] nestafan2 12 years ago

Ever since hypocritical Bill Cosby talked about the serious issues of the black poor mainly to deflect attention from his own despicable behavior, it's become fashionable for many whites and some blacks to throw out the personal responsibility card.

You had a very strong argument until you made this assertion. Though Bill Cosby certainly has his flaws, I do not believe his appeal to the black community was a deflection. We have accepted the lowest denomination of ourselves and have internalized racism to the detriment of our social well-being. We were a resilient, proud, and progressive people from the Reconstruction to the Civil Rights Movement. We have now become or have accepted the wretched stereotypical images the world sees in movies and television reality shows. Cosby exposed the serious issues that plague the black commnity and challenged us to take action.

No, people are not forced to drink or take drugs, but the government's refusal to neutralize dilemma the affected a community as a whole is vile. The government's so-called involvement in the drug-flooding of the black community is compounded with the lack of funding for education, high unemployment rates among blacks, discrimination against blacks in the workforce, the disproportionate number of black people arrested for drug-related charges (which produces a criminal record that well in essence almost guarantee unemployment), and the hopelessness and despair caused by de facto racism. One could argue that there is some personal responsibility, but if nothing else, the government can at least be called enablers.

The truth is mightier than the sword.

[–] david38091 12 years ago

"You had a very strong argument until you made this assertion"

I could say the same of you.

"Cosby exposed the serious issues that plague the black commnity and challenged us to take action"

During the time Cosby was preaching to the black poor he was in the middle of a sexual abuse scandal. Cosby was accused and paid off (with he condition of confidentiality) close to a dozen women who accused him of drugging and sexually assaulting them. There are so many of them I'm not going to post all the links here. Just Google "Bill Cosby Sexual Assault". Not to mention more than one allegation of him fathering children outside his marriage. This was a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Cosby didn't expose anything other than his own hypocrisy. I don't expect perfection from anyone. But if you are going to preach morality and personal responsibility don't have possible rape charges hanging around your neck when you're doing it. You'll have a lot more credibility that way.

"We were a resilient, proud, and progressive people from the Reconstruction to the Civil Rights Movement"

Myself and I would hazard to guess MOST black Americans ARE STILL resilient, proud, and progressive people.

"We have now become or have accepted the wretched stereotypical images the world sees in movies and television reality shows. Cosby exposed the serious issues that plague the black commnity and challenged us to take action"

You seem to be comfortable making broad sweeping negative statements about black Americans. There has always been racial stereotypes of black Americans. From Amos and Andy to Hattie McDaniel in GWTW to Stephen Fetchit. But most black people have the good sense to realize that these stereotypes do NOT represent the majority of us. I'm sure other racial and ethnic groups feel the same way.

Personal responsibility is something most black Americans would agree on including myself. But the only person that benefited from Cosby's rants was BILL COSBY. Cosby used a public forum and the language of a bigot to address the problems of the black poor to deflect from his own irresponsible and possible criminal behavior. Last time I checked sexual assault is a crime. Not unless you're rich and can buy your way out of it. Cosby successfully got the media to stop asking questions about a whole lot of white women accusing him of sexual assault. That IMHO was Cosby's main objective...and he succeeded. This is one thing the government can NOT be blamed for.

In criticism I prefer constructive criticism to build up rather than destructive criticism to tear down. Even if you believed in Cosby's sincerity (which I don't) white mainstream media was not a good forum for criticism of black Americans or any racial minority group. It feeds into racial stereotypes. All we have to do is look at some of the statements made by racist GOP candidate for president Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum.

[–] nestafan2 12 years ago

Even if you believed in Cosby's sincerity (which I don't) white mainstream media was not a good forum for criticism of black Americans or any racial minority group. It feeds into racial stereotypes. All we have to do is look at some of the statements made by racist GOP candidate for president Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum.

So that's the problem? Let's talk about it, but not in front of white people? You think they don't already know? Can we afford to care what they think? Despite allegations regarding Bill Cosby, there are many people in the black community who are uncomfortable with the truth. You are upset that Cosby discussed issues within the black community because he's been accused of sexual assault, yet many in the community will glory the black athlete, despite their indiscretions. So let's say a more morally responsible public figure had made these statements: like Farrakhan, who many believed orchestrated the assassination of Malcolm X, or Al Sharpton, who many believe is merely an opportunist, or Spike Lee (who has done the same thing as Cosby), who many see as a controversial Black Nationalist... The point is that anyone who dares to challenge the way we think can be raked over the coals for their personal choices. But is that really the point? Was Cosby's "call to action" merely an attempt to create a diversion? Perhaps. But is any of what he said erroneous in any way?

You seem to be comfortable making broad sweeping negative statements about black Americans. There has always been racial stereotypes of black Americans.

You, too, must be careful of sweeping assertions as you have done the same thing in your arguments with the OP. We are both intelligent enough to know that neither of us has the capacity to take a survey of the attitudes and ideologies of every black person in America. My point is that collectively (call it a sweeping statement if you must), we have become comfortable with the status quo and are no longer inclined to challenge it. In fact, we have regressed in many ways. Gone are the days of the Black Panther Party, the Civil Rights Movement, SNCC, the BLA, the Freedom Riders, etc. We no longer see the courage of Diane Nash, Fred Hampton, Angela Davis, or Kwame Ture (aka Stokely Carmichael)in young people today. If you can name someone today with an ounce of the courage they had, enlighten me. And if you feel we no longer need to organize like we have in the past, you have proven my point.

The truth is mightier than the sword.

[–] david38091 12 years ago

And if you feel we no longer need to organize like we have in the past, you have proven my point.

Where in ANY of my comments did I say we as a race don't need to organize??? You seem to be making up some sort of argument that doesn't exist.

"neither of us has the capacity to take a survey of the attitudes and ideologies of every black person in America"

Have you forgotten what you wrote already??? You are the one making broad sweeping negative statements with out taking a survey about black people not me. Remember this statement:

"We were a resilient, proud, and progressive people from the Reconstruction to the Civil Rights Movement. We have now become or have accepted the wretched stereotypical images the world sees in movies and television reality shows"

You keep saying "WE". Speak for yourself and NOT for your entire race. As far as surveys go I didn't take a survey of every black person but I can take one of YOU. Checking out your IMDB profile page you seem to be obsessed with the same negative images you criticize in (SOME) black Americans. You make all these grandiose statements about the Black Panther Party, the Civil Rights Movement, SNCC, the BLA, the Freedom Riders but in reality you are more interested in the black buffoonery of "Real Housewives of Atlanta" and "Braxton Family Values! LOL That seems to be the main thing you comment about on IMDB. Your IMDB profile page speaks volumes about what a hypocrite you are....just like Cosby. Perhaps if you were to turn off these idiot reality shows you wouldn't make such idiotic sweeping statements about your race. That is if you're black.

"The point is that anyone who dares to challenge the way we think can be raked over the coals for their personal choices"

WTF??? So Bill Cosby allegedly raping women and quietly paying them off is a "PERSONAL CHOICE"??? WOW! That says a lot about YOU. There are plenty of black people who criticize the bad behavior of those in the black community. As a 54 year old black man I've been one of them. But giving Bill Cosby credibility is like giving a disgraced Catholic priest accused of raping children credibility on talking about child abuse. People like that (Cosby) actually hurt the argument of personal responsibility, morality and self help. A message I agree many people not only the black poor need to hear. There are those who defend Cosby because he gives money to charity. But even racist like Don Imus gives money to charity. It's called a tax write off. You sound like a lot of these white conservatives that rally around these sanctimonious Republican candidates for president because they preach morality. Their supporters don't care that they are hypocrites that don't practice what they preach. Cosby didn't practice what he preached.

The people who desperately need to hear that message of personal responsibility became defensive because of the the destructive way he address it. Other than feeding into white racism and black self hating bigotry (you know the type) Cosby was the sole beneficiary of his rants. His purpose was damage control and trying to save his image. He used a legitimate discussion of personal responsibility and used the black poor to save his tarnished image.

You can have the last word nestafan2, that way you can go back to watching your reality shows.

[–] nestafan2 12 years ago

You make all these grandiose statements about the Black Panther Party, the Civil Rights Movement, SNCC, the BLA, the Freedom Riders but in reality you are more interested in the black buffoonery of "Real Housewives of Atlanta" and "Braxton Family Values! LOL That seems to be the main thing you comment about on IMDB.

So, you found me interesting enough to research my profile, yet you conveniently overlooked my commentary on shows like "Unsung" and movies like "Love and Basketball" (both of which I'm sure Rush Limbaugh loves as well).
Yes, I occasionally watch those shows because I cannot criticize something I know nothing about. See, I know how black people are portrayed in the media nowadays because I've seen it, all of it. I wish there were more positive shows to comment on, but that's exactly my point. Therefore, when I say there is an abundance of negative stereotypes in the media, I know what I'm talking about. I'll bet a dollar to a donut you didn't read any of my commentary or criticisms on the two reality show boards. The truth is, no matter how much "digging" you thought you were doing on me, you still couldn't argue any of my points. Instead, you resorted to ad hominem.

Yes, I know my history and from where we've come as a people. So, I know about the Freedom Riders and "Braxton Family Values," that's how I know we've regressed in many ways. All I got from you is a hard-on for Cosby. If he wasn't the right person to say what needed to be said, then who was? A lack of respect for the messenger doesn't negate the message.

Have you forgotten what you wrote already??? You are the one making broad sweeping negative statements with out taking a survey about black people not me.

So, broad sweeping statements are okay as long as they are only about a certain group? You can accuse Cosby of rape based solely on media information? In some of your earlier comments, you did the same thing you're accusing me of. Reread them and refresh your memory. And how does a 54-year-old man know about "Braxton Family Values" or "The Real Housewives of Atlanta?" Am I the hypocrite or are you?

So Bill Cosby allegedly raping women and quietly paying them off is a "PERSONAL CHOICE"???

Allegedly. Do you have the court records?

Perhaps if you were to turn off these idiot reality shows you wouldn't make such idiotic sweeping statements about your race. That is if you're black

Perhaps if you'd do a little research instead of obsessing over Bill Cosby, you'd have something valuable to contribute. I like how I'm being compared to FOX news pundits because I acknowledge that black people are much more than what is seen in the media today. Many young black people today have dumbed down and accepted the lowest denomination of themselves as I said before. What can you say to the contrary? And by saying this, I'm mimicking Glen Beck? If all I'm doing is watching reality shows, how would I even know what the BLA is? Nice try, but try again. Now, you can go back to stalking me.

The truth is mightier than the sword.

[–] dangus 11 years ago

The welfare regulations that encourage single-parent households had the additional effect of making men more vulnerable to drugs. Instead of a quiet evening at home with family, he's hanging out with other unemployed men. Lack of family and community ties is one of the biggest factors in predicting whether parolees will reoffend, so it must be a significant influence on whether someone turns to crime and drugs in the first place.

[–] diagoro-2 10 years ago

The point about the CIA and drugs was in direct relation to the movie's theme. They stated that drugs were another tactic to break apart Black unity and marginalize the Black Power groups.