I mean compared to serving real time. In stasis don't you just go to sleep then wake up? Several years may have passed but would you have even aged? It doesn't seem like real punishment even if in the movie there were other factors that made it undesirable.
shareYeah, that's what I was thinking. Several years pass, but for you it's not even a second. And with that, there's no real rehabilitation whatsoever.
But you have the chance of having your mind unraveled, or being experimented on.
But if those two problems weren't...problems, then I think I'd prefer my prison sentence be carried out like that. Feels like no time has passed, and you don't age.
[deleted]
Agreed.
The idea of the penitentiary comes from monks, as I recall. If a monk committed an offense or such they'd be taken to the penitentiary so as to think about what they did, why it was wrong, and what to do about it. It was about curing wrong-doing, not simply punishing it.
Which, of course, is what's wrong with the "eye for an eye" philosophy - one who commits a wrong should do something to make up for that action, not simply suffer the same fate. If one damages an eye, then they need to do something to help offset that loss so as to make up for the wrong.
Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
Admiral of the BSG (RDM) boards.
The question I have for people who follow your philosophy is what should be done about criminals?
You say a person needs to do something to "offset that loss" what do you do with someone who refuses? Prison is out of question apparently. So they can't be locked up.
Say I rob a bank. You tell me I have to remedy this action. I say OK and I go out and rob another bank. And another and another. Your world doesn't allow anyone to harm me, or to imprison me. All you can do is ask nicely while I continue to rob banks.
What do you do with serial killers? Rapists? Car thieves? Anyone who knows exactly what they are doing and consciously choose to do it.
I've been listening to people criticize the common justice system my whole life, and I've never heard a viable alternative.
You have no answer yet you declare this one untenable.
This is reality. You can't simply theorize and criticize and think you've solved a problem. And believe me, I would appreciate an answer. I want to think about alternatives. Perhaps a mixed system, one for people who have something to learn, and one for those who knowingly and willingly commit crimes.
You must understand that whatever your solution, victims may not agree with you. And if you decide to do virtually nothing to remove the criminals from the populace, victims will. Then you will no longer have any law or order.
"I've been listening to people criticize the common justice system my whole life, and I've never heard a viable alternative"
There is indeed no other alternative in our current monetary/creditory system. The economic system we have been using, with minor variations, since we abandoned our hunting ways, set up the first ancient farms and started selling our extra wheat or milk for profit. The common justice system has always dealt with the symptoms of crime; yet the causes have always been totally ignored. The causes are the social injustice and inequalities. Nice little absurditites like the fact that one man can make in an hour's "work" what another makes in a year's. Education is effective up to a point. Education allows us to understand the problems that lead to crime, but it can do very little to change them.
For however long there will be money in any form there will always be crime. In the States you have an entire prison network (much of which private), that is literally fed by crime. These prisons need to fill so that money can be drained out of the taxpayers' pockets. Thats's why crime is not at all deterred or prevented; it is even encouraged. If something magical happened and all hard crimes somehow totally stopped the lawmakers would *have* to respond with some sort of an "absolute zero tolerance" on crime : "You stole a chewing gum? The law just changed mate sorry, five years with no parole". "Overspeeding? Ten years mate, not a day less." Otherwise the entire police - judicial - prison tens of billions dollar industry would simply collapse. And that would in turn lead to the collapse of the entire american economy - and thus the entire world's.
For more on crime, its causes and its prevention, please take a look at the first part of Zeitegeist 3 : Moving Forward (available on Youtube). This part is distinct from the Zeitgeist aggenda, it is just a bunch of neuroscientists, sociologists and psychologists being interviewed on crime. Very illuminating and much substantiated. It will answer a lot of questions like the ones you ask above and much more you may have not thought about yet.
signature start :
The term "suspension of disbelief" was coined by LOLW, the League of Lazy Writers.
You treat them like humans. You try to find out why they do what they do and help them become better. In Scandinavian where they have done this they have low crime rates, in the US where you piss all over them you have 3% of the population in jail.
As for victims, they will always be thinking irrationally compared to what is best for society and shouldn't be asked.
But by klimt27 is right, in this greed capitalist world in the west its too expensive to repair damaged humans, it would be faster just to kill them.
Of course in most countries they prefer torturing people in prison for years and then expect better behavior when you let people out.
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Lets nuke the site from orbit - its the only way to be sure.
Scandinavia also has 20 year sentences for clearly insane people that mass murder. So there's that.
shareIf you add up all the population in scandinavia you'd still not add up to population of one US state.
Given that 1 out of 4 pepople suffer from a mental problem, there are more people in the US alone that are likely to end up in prison then in scandinavia. So when you look at per cent you might need to look at the other facts. More people = more risk of one of them having enough problems to land him/her in prison.
I will not get in to the obvious difference in society structure between the countrys, but Ill present you with what you refed to "treating them as humans"
"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by observing its prisoners." -Dostevsky
In scandinavia the cost of one prisoner at a minimum security prison is €160 per day. (Compare to a child in school is €8) Its a paradise for criminals and the only reason you are stupid enough to promote a system like that is beacuse you haven't seen the end of it. All that you see are the high taxes (that you complain about) and you belive that you are paying for education and taking care of you elderly, take a look at any scandinavian country today and tell me that is what you see. You don't see children getting a stellar education or your elderly taken care off, insted you have massive amount of money going in to luxery prison where criminals live as guests at a hotel, with their own room, their own Tv etc. Free acces to gym, library, education (also for free) and comuters. You even get PAID to be in prison i scandinavia! Police solve 1,5% of all crimes. And the victims gets no support because there isn't enough money.
Scandinavia is a laughingstock and there is a reason why all criminals go there for whatever crime, from rape to stealing from churches. There is just no punishment, just vacation on taxpayers money. Then you go out and do it all over again. Soon enough scandinavia will understand that their prison system is falling to bits, then what do you do? You say we think with our hearts, it makes just as much sence as thinking with your ass. Neither is ment to think with.
And also, In Japan you have the lowest crime rate, with looooooooooong time spend (isolated) in prison and they also have the death penalty.
It's not about the prisons, its about society in large.
X ~We are the people our parents warned us about
If you add up all the population in scandinavia you'd still not add up to population of one US state.
Which, of course, is what's wrong with the "eye for an eye" philosophy -
If they were smart, they wouldn't be inmates. They'd be politicians or CEOs. That is what separates the dumb amoral sociopaths from the smart ones.
shareI think that the stasis was more for testing the effects of long term hibernation/stasis, long term space exposure and anything else related to deep space exploration and colonization than for punishment/rehabilitation.
Using a prison as a cover makes a lot of sense. You don't have to pay prisoners, inform them of the testing process and if they die nobody is really going to investigate to deeply.
I guess in the future we don't have any civil rights either, and the only device that seemed to be aimed at creating gravity actually takes it away? They were in full earth like gravity, I found that one of the hardest things to believe besides the whole "stasis" thing, I guess your family won't be coming to visit any year soon. Any prisoner with a 20 year or more sentence would volunteer immediately even if they did age, prison sucks bad! I would even sign the 10000 page terms & conditions waiver!
My Identity's been stolen,I'm waiting for another one
I guess in the future we don't have any civil rights
I'm beginning to think that most of the posters on this thread didn't actually watch the entire movie.
1) It's revealed in no uncertain terms that the prisoners were being experimented on. But they never said *what* type of experiments.
2) It was made clear at the start of the movie that the prison was largely funded by a private enterprise. Remember the warden's conversation with Emilie in the elevator where he mentioned her father's major campaign contributors. The government is barely involved in the place.
3) This story takes place nearly 100 years in the future. It's beyond post-apocalyptic, it's straight up apocalyptic. The friends and family of any of the prisoners clearly have more to worry about than visiting their murderous siblings/whatever in space prison. My guess is activists of any kind in this world are immediately shot.
Ok, slow down a bit, sure I see all of your points, but I believe the OP meant it as if it was done in a time of where we all still had our right's & constitution ect. Then yes it would be insane to think you are punishing them by putting them to sleep for a couple years. At the time it takes place in the future, in that government, you would most likely just be ejected into space, spaceships are expensive & the square footage cannot be taken up by anything that isn't beneficial to the ship, these guys should have signed a contract that if they breach certain severe protocols, they are f'd, ejected!
At such times 100's of years into the future, they will have to write all new laws & freedoms for situations where you are on a ship for a very long time period, look at the film Pandorum, a law & enforcement would need to be written for that condition when verified as an example.
GO BEARS! GO BEARS!
"I think that the stasis was more for testing the effects of long term hibernation/stasis, long term space exposure and anything else related to deep space exploration and colonization than for punishment/rehabilitation.
Using a prison as a cover makes a lot of sense. You don't have to pay prisoners, inform them of the testing process and if they die nobody is really going to investigate to deeply."
^ He nailed it. Also, prison doesn't have to be about "punishment" or "rehabilitation." Rather, it's just a way of keeping prisoners AWAY from the law abiding citizens. I think a giant space prison does the trick.
The problem is that not all of them seemed to be lifers. Yeah, we keep them away for 10-20-30 years but then what? They'll return as pissed of and psycho as they were when they got locked in in the first place.
share"They'll return as pissed of and psycho as they were when they got locked in in the first place."
- I'm wondering about that, too. I know that if I were put in a really dangerous prison for 20-30 years, I'd probably be reaaaaaally pissed off when I came out. But if I were more us less 'safe' (as in, I was 'sleeping' the whole time), I might be a little happier about the whole thing, since I wasn't in a constant state of boredom/danger/potential ass-rape. lol
We all know what the real purpose of the prison was for but how could they even greenlight a prison with the type of punishment that was proposed? We're going to lock up all these harsh prisoners but they're just going to go to sleep for 30 years then wake up after they've served their time - free, healthy and unaged like the day they went in. It made no judicial sense unless you add the experimental condition which was secretive.
shareThey never said they wouldn't age. To me, it certainly feels like a punishment. Imagine if a 20-year-old had been put to stasis 30 years ago in 1982 and he woke up today as a 50-year-old.
The world has certainly changed hugely in the past 30 years. In 1982 there were only basic home computers, no cell phones, no internet, no global warming, no AIDS, no reality tv and no Kardashians. Imagine the sense of isolation for a person that had grown up in the 1970's to enter the social jungle of modern society.
We all know what the real purpose of the prison was for but how could they even greenlight a prison with the type of punishment that was proposed? We're going to lock up all these harsh prisoners but they're just going to go to sleep for 30 years then wake up after they've served their time - free, healthy and unaged like the day they went in. It made no judicial sense unless you add the experimental condition which was secretive.
Yeah it's a totally stupid premise. Who would put someone dangerous to sleep for 30 years, then wake him up and set him free? No punishment, no justice and no rehabilitation. I don't get how people can sign off on scripts like this.
shareThis script was littered with holes and silliness.
Guy 1: Oh My God, I found a penny!
Guy 2: You B@stard!
Yeah. Actually I am so tired I could use some real good stasis right now.
share[deleted]
Same time I said about Demolition Man decades ago, why freeze their live and age to when they are release, we'll grow old and they're still young? I would have commit a crime just to suspend my life to see the future!!
shareBut they make it clear in Demolition Man that the prisoners are mentally altered to restrain their violence and/or criminal motives when they are released. That's why they have the parole hearings like Phoenix escaped from, to make sure they had been successfully "fixed". The only reason Phoenix was still crazy was that his programing had been sabotaged by the bad guy.
If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit!!!
I was thinking the same thing.When there's no more room in hell, The dead will walk the earth...
the whole film is ridiculous.......... Imagine the cost of transporting prisoners to & from it and maintaining such a prison.
I feel prisons should be self funding. make the prisoners work in a factory built into the prison. they should be made to clean the other prisoners cells so they get an idea what doing something for others is like!
perhaps a sewerage works? that might be unpleasant....
Cant believe we let prisons go on as they are.