MovieChat Forums > Maleficent (2014) Discussion > Why do the new generation of fairy tales...

Why do the new generation of fairy tales hate men?

posted 9 years ago by BrotherRat
88 replies | jump to latest

I understand that a woman may not need a man to be "complete." I know the old saw... "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." When Frozen chose to make the prince a dope and have one sister save the other I shrugged it off. It was a good story with a bit of a twist. Besides... there was one good and loyal hero to offset the male villain.

But this story doesn't even give us a single good male. Even the prince who is Aurora's love interest is mere window dressing. The women are magical, powerful, betrayed by men, and loving to each other. The men are power hungry, love betraying, and hateful.

I don't mind a film with a strong female lead. More power to them. I don't mind if the male lead mainly supports and enables the female lead. But the overall message in this movie is men are bad and women are good. It's almost like it was written by a tween girl... right after her first boyfriend dumped her.

[–] 9 years ago

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[–] BrotherRat 9 years ago

LOL. No. I just noticed how many other guys got all bent out of shape about this story. I just watched it and wrote down my impression... didn't realize there was a full scale war between the sexes on this thread.
I am well aware that the main problem (in a guys opinion) is that the male parts are 2 dimensional and the females have a much wider range of roles in this film.... which is the opposite of most films... and may leave our poor lil egos bruised.
It didn't do that to me, I just noticed the reversal of roles as a trend in Disney fairy tales. A dang bastion of uber-male prince saving princess stories. LOL.
I loved Shrek (which was anti-Disney) for turning that whole thing upside down, but this was just too much. Liked the special effects, though.

[–] Unvoiced-Apollo 9 years ago

IMHO, the female characters really don't have a much wider range. Aside from Maleficent, who really has her own issues in terms of writing, what roles do the other women fill? You have Aurora, who is really just a prop so that Maleficent can redeem herself. You have the queen that does nothing. And the fairies while magic, apparently can't use it for anything more than slapstick (not to mention are complete idiots). They might be good, but they're terrible representation of women

I certainly don't see any negatives in the men of Disney's most recent animated featues. Well some, but only because they're y'know...human.

When Frozen chose to make the prince a dope

Wait, wait, wait...the guy that manipulated everyone into loving him was a dope? Or are you talking about the goofy guy that understands the nature of supply & demand and why having a snowstorm in summer would be bad for his ice business? Both seemed pretty intelligent to me. You had the cunning, manipulative bastard and the hearty, goofy entrepreneur.

But this story doesn't even give us a single good male. Even the prince who is Aurora's love interest is mere window dressing."

This I agree with. Well, they did give us Diaval, though as I've said in other threads, he was a bird. Speaking which...

"a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."

Kinda sends a mixed message since Malefcent turns Diaval into the dragon rather than transforming herself, doesn't it?

And there isn't a fullscale war between genders on here (I'm a guy). It's just some boys on here are basically claiming reverse sexism, and don't realize just how untrue that is when you realize the statistics regarding movies and the genders of the leads.

If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

[–] Zippo_123 9 years ago

It's just some boys on here are basically claiming reverse sexism, and don't realize just how untrue that is when you realize the statistics regarding movies and the genders of the leads.

You keep making the mistake of equating representation with characterization. If men have a problem with a movie like this, it's not about the fact that it's a girl in the lead for a change. It's about the way that the men that are in the movie, are portrayed. It's a pretty fundemental difference. Sexism with regards to representation is totally different from sexism with regards to characterization. You can't defend anti-male sexism in characterization by pointing to anti-female sexism in representation.

[–] Unvoiced-Apollo 9 years ago

Not really. If you have a problem with the way men are represented in this film, you should also have a problem with the representation of women in this movie.

It seems that the other men that complain of the male characters completely ignore the piss poor representation of the female characters, turning it into a gender war.

If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

[–] andrewpi7 9 years ago

Correction: some other men.

I (and I suspect others) have complained about both.

[–] Unvoiced-Apollo 9 years ago

That's what the "seems" was for, though I should have dropped the "the".

If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

[–] Zippo_123 9 years ago

I have no idea what you mean by this. The women are portrayed way more positive than then the men.

[–] Unvoiced-Apollo 9 years ago

If you consider bumbling incompetents, a plot device, background, and punisher of innocents better...

Heck, Diaval is the best portrayed character and he gets the biggest bad ass scene.

If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

[–] mcmingus 9 years ago

Excellent distinction. Good point.

*Danny's not here, Mrs. Torrance*

[–] Zippo_123 9 years ago

Are all women evil in the Expendables? And all men beautiful creatures? If not, your comment doesn't make any sense at all.

[–] Housefan2 9 years ago

I don't understand why people constantly compare Frozen and Maleficent. They're worlds apart. Frozen doesn't use the theme, "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." Anna needed Kristoff to get up the North Mountain to Elsa. Anna doesn't even know which way is north until Kristoff points it out.

And I wouldn't call Hans a dope. He's a great villain. Granted, he's caught monolouging but he still tricked an entire kingdom into believing he truly wanted what was best for Arendelle and Anna. That takes some doing.

Maleficent, on the other hand, exists purely to make Maleficent the hero of the story. She's a popular Disney character so why not make her a hero. She wasn't the Mistress of All Evil who used all the powers of Hell on her enemies. No, she was wronged by a one dimensional male. Women, being so easily controlled by men, immediately tries to hurt an innocent person. That's how weak and stupid women are in the eyes of Maleficent's fanbase.

And I would say Maleficent hates women as much as it hates men. Look at the dissection they performed on Flora, Fauna and Merriweather.

Lizzie

To love another person is to see the face of God! - Les Miserables

[–] 9 years ago

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[–] Unvoiced-Apollo 9 years ago

This relates to Frozen, but applies to all your arguments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wETDqiKDUmo

If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

[–] StrongRex 9 years ago

I want to add another big difference between Maleficent and Frozen. Maleficent's act of true love and Anna's act of true love are NOTHING alike.

It was Anna's OWN act of saving her sister from death that saved HERSELF. No other affection was needed.

Maleficent's act of true love was not only a rip-off of true love's kiss (only a "motherly" kiss this time), but Aurora could have had a very loving mother who was still alive if Maleficent had not cursed her.

[–] BrotherRat 9 years ago

I disagree. Trinity from the matrix was strong... and not evil. There are loads of such roles... and not all have to be love interests for the male lead either. Hilary Swank in Million Dollar Baby was a strong female lead (actually many of her roles are strong).

But when an ex shows up at your pad and curses your child in the cradle... yeah... that's kinda evil.

[–] SydneysMaster 9 years ago

didn't trinity say to one of the agents, and I quote, "dodge this, ahole?"

I mean sure, the agents were the bad guys... but I am pretty sure trinity was the only one to curse at the agents.. what's up with that? she also did other jerky stuff.. so deal with it.. my 101% withstands this blow

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Krillin: Man, that android is toast!
Piccolo: Yeah... More like, burnt toast.

[–] BrotherRat 9 years ago

Heh. I think if your definition of an evil movie character is an action star who says a curse-word to a villain, then there are no "good" heroes, male or female. Do puns make a character evil too?

[–] LukeLovesFilm28 9 years ago

Well, technically, according to Trinity, the Agents weren't real men.

In Revolutions, Trinity fights Bane and anything she does to him is self-protection. That's all women need for fighting skills, because we're not always going to be there to be their hero.

If your woman can't adore you for being her hero, what can she appreciate you for??

Men have always had to prove ourselves to women. We can't just be sexy. We have to prove to be nice, decent, kind, generous, heroic or self-sacrificing. Women get to be "beautiful" and "wanted" as soon as they come of age... and maybe even before that (depending on the culture). For mothers to want their sons to constantly be on their best behavior while allowing their girlfriends or wives to walk all over them, taking every morsel of pride away from their sons, that's sick. And if men can't prove ourselves to be good or strong or heroic or whatever else women want - because women have proven to be able to supply that for themselves, we don't get a chance to be with anyone. We get to die, alone and unworthy.

[–] SydneysMaster 9 years ago

Whoa bro.. don't feel so bad.. I am glad women look more attractive than men.. but it is only because of hair and makeup and fashion and stuff like that..

and women have their own share of problems too.. I won't go into that

as for men being alone.. the woman will be with a mate too.. either that or turn lesbian

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Krillin: Man, that android is toast!
Piccolo: Yeah... More like, burnt toast.

[–] Unvoiced-Apollo 9 years ago

Um, many women end up alone for a variety of reasons.

If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

[–] 9 years ago

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[–] Unvoiced-Apollo 9 years ago

Why is it messed up to stay single?

If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

[–] SydneysMaster 9 years ago

you are right it is not.. I will delete my previous comment

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Krillin: Man, that android is toast!
Piccolo: Yeah... More like, burnt toast.

[–] Unvoiced-Apollo 9 years ago

Ah, I was right that your issues with women stem from mommy issues.

If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

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[–] Unvoiced-Apollo 9 years ago

Well...the trend of using terrible male characters to prop up terrible female characters I can't really get behind.

I will say that I understand the trend and considering how Hollywood is simply rife with male leads that I really can't complain that movies are marginalizing men.

If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

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[–] LukeLovesFilm28 9 years ago

LOL. I never said anything like that. Now that my very smart, clever and accurate post has been deleted once again, you can never prove that that's what I said.

[–] Unvoiced-Apollo 9 years ago

Given your history, I doubt Ke3 was far off on the assessment of your post.

If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

[–] nightwing60 9 years ago

Oh the logic of a feminist.

[–] bond_98 9 years ago

The way i see if Disney really wanted to break cliche they should have a girl save the guy. But i think they are not breaking old cliche as much as there making new ones. Not to mention that Sharlto Copley was a totally cliche one dimensional character.

[–] Unvoiced-Apollo 9 years ago

"they should have a girl save the guy."

Ariel, Belle, Pocahontas, Mulan, Megara, Rapunzel, & Anna would like a word. 

If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

[–] 9 years ago

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[–] dwellman21 9 years ago

You know, this whole MRA vs. Feminist nonsense is stupid on both ends. Nobody hates anybody except the idiot extremists *beep* on either side of the "fight" like you. They're just *beep* characters in a movie that serve a specific function to tell a certain story, that's it. I promise you there's no anti-man or anti-woman conspiracy going on in Hollywood, you can all relax (and STFU) now.

[–] Imperatrixx 9 years ago

I've been waiting for you. Thank you!

__________

"Did you call the hypothetical hardware store and buy a theoretical chainsaw?"

[–] Strazdamonas 8 years ago

see, the problem is that the extremists are the ones behind the wheel nowadays. Hollywood was always the land of extremists behind the wheel, so this is nothing new, but this seems to take over more and more cultures and moderates like me really start to feel pushed out. as a result, some resisted by implementing the opposite extreme (which i do not condone), and then the two extremes clashed and moderation was forgotten.

What i know though is that when i tried to talk about extremism to feminists they basically told me i should die.

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Applied Science? All science is applied. Eventually.

[–] truther 9 years ago

I don't know about the other movies but I didn't have a problem with Maleficent at all, and I'm a guy.

Look, the whole point of the film was to put a twist on the familiar fairy tale. So the king can't be good and noble, and the prince can't save the day. Then it would be just another stupid fairy tale. I would have gagged if that boy prince had simply been able to kiss Aurora and have his "true love" fix everything. That would have been idiotic. And the fact that the king was the one who didn't grow -- that he stayed bitter and violent to the end -- was a sweet turn.

Maleficent's change of heart was the whole point. I don't think it sends any greater message about the usefulness of men or the power of feminism or lesbianism or any of that. Those theories are just people projecting their own biases and preconceptions onto the film. I wouldn't have been surprised if the bird guy had been able to kiss her, since he genuinely grew to love Aurora (meaning he's a guy in the movie who's complex and competent), but for Maleficent herself to do it was fine and consistent with the story's point. She'd grown to (platonically) love again.

[–] raymond_chandler 9 years ago

^^^Perfect^^^. I agree very strongly with your entire post, truther, and I am a late-middle-age guy who saw a few Disney flicks in theaters in the 1960s. All these arguments crying anti-male bias are the exact same ones that were trotted out 24 years ago, when Thelma & Louise made a big splash. It's silly, and unworthy of one of the BEST Fantasy movies I have seen in a long, long time. The bird-man character is multi-dimensional, wise, and sympathetic, just like Harvey Keitel in Thelma & Louise. Case closed.

As iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another

[–] truther 9 years ago

Thanks. Great minds think alike. :)

People seriously need to just calm down. Plus, if you really want to bring gender into it, then just focus on the fact that Angelina looked phenomenal. She's purdy.

[–] Strazdamonas 8 years ago

i reall hoped they were going to go for the Crow-turned-human to be the "true love" thats going to wake her up. Sadly they went with the cliche of "villian finds the error of his ways" route.

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Applied Science? All science is applied. Eventually.