MovieChat Forums > Waiting for 'Superman' (2010) Discussion > How do you think Public education can be...

How do you think Public education can be improved in the US?


How do you think Public education can be improved in the US?

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[deleted]

Educating the next generation is as vital to a country as national defense. Government mandated education is a good thing.

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Jesus, man. Government defense is the last thing we need.

We should open our children to more viable options: art and science. War, politics and religion absolutely never produce constructive results. Ever.

The staggering amount of electives that are dropped every year to meet tax needs for faulty systems is astounding.



"Digging to the rhythm and the echo of a solitary siren."

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It was war and politics that produced the United States which I believe was very constructive.



|Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

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No, it was the will to be free that produced USofA.

Sort of like people who do not want to ruin their children by sending them to bad schools, so they have to fight for that freedom of choice.

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No? And what did their *will* propel them to do? Did they just *will* themselves free of the British? No politics? No bloodshed?
You've made the dumbest statement I've read in a long while.



|Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

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Politics and bloodshed do not necessarily produce USofA or anything else that is good for that matter. Will to be free, OTOH, does. Whether one has to defend that will to freedom is an entirely different matter. Look at Gandhi as an example of freedom gained without bloodshed. And also look at all the mass murderers to see how bloodshed in most instances does not produce freedom.

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You seem to mistakenly believe that will is independent from action. Also feel free to tackle my question head-on if you are so confident in your assertion.



|Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

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But even 'the will to be free' is political. Gandhi was political. The perpetual fight for emancipation IS political, just not political in the same sense as you seem to mean.

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Jesus, man. Government defense is the last thing we need.


I beg to differ. As a former NEA member (who now teaches in a non-union state), and as a veteran of the U.S. Air Force, I understand that national defense is the most important responsibility of the Federal Government, and that K-12 is the primary responsibility of state and local governments.

War, politics and religion absolutely never produce constructive results.


War defeated Hitler.
Politics elected Kennedy.
Religion gives billions hope.

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The Air Force? What a joke. Might as well be called a civilian.

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The Air Force? What a joke.


Apparently you have never witnessed an Air Force live fire exercise. It'll make that false ego of yours shrivel up so small you'll need a string to pull it back out.



|Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

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No idiot he's saying education is just as important as national defense. And why are you dragging religion into your absolute statements.

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Ok so who's going to run the schools and actually pay for it then?

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Yes and no. As the film points out, the bureaucracy is a joke. This is where the U.S. is different; in other countries, the system is national. You can move from one part of the country to the next and not miss a beat. Not so here. I have been involved in education for over 20 years, at all levels. I have a PhD in education. If you ask me, you have to do away with school systems and school superintendents, etc. You have to make schools accountable to national standards. Now, this sounds like it flies against the idea of less government, but it doesn't. If you want to take the bureaucracy out of the picture, you actually have to form a committee at the national level (your best and brightest educators) to set the standards for all Americans at all levels and then let principals and schools report directly to that one agency. That's how you cut costs and simplify the system.

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FIRST
I think PUBLIC education has become a failed institution.
There are those who will keep saying that the unions are not a big part of the probelm, but when a system is failing and that system resists change that has benefitted private schools, and they do so simply for their own job security, YOU HAVE THE ANSWER.

GOOD teachers who can engage in GOOD teaching methods will ALWAYS be in demand.
Teachers who are bad or who are bound by impossible bureaucracy, will accomplish very little.

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there are lots of so-called answers, but the real trouble is that we're asking the wrong questions. insane amounts of bureaucracy do cause a great deal of money to be wasted in ways that don't contribute much to actual education. however, the current "reform" movement funnels money to other enterprises which cost even more and contribute even less.

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I absolutely agree. When I was in school, I was shown how horrible the Soviet Union and China were when they turned schools into nationally driven factories. Education needs to be decentralized and as close to the real parents of the children as possible. Education mainly is parenting (in loco parentis), and parenting is not something where one size fits all and only the geniuses in Washington can tell us all how to do it. To turn schools into bases for a national defense project means that everything we do is for national defense. People are born to enjoy their lives, not to constantly cringe in fear with weapons in hand. Our country did fantastically for nearly two centuries with decentralized education. Why would we want to shift to some command economy model of having a central politboro determine what every child must learn? After all, children are the children of their parents, not children of the Federal government. I saw "Waiting for Superman" and think it made many good points. However, they missed what I see as the main reasons for the decline of our education system. Poor Administration is the most important thing. When supervision in schools treats teachers with disrespect, they lose their motivation and turn to unions to protect them and become lazy and discouraged. They see their job as a horrible chore and the adminstration as their enemy and try to get out of the darn hellhole as soon as 3:00 rolls around. The other overlooked problem is poor parenting at home. Parents don't support their children's education, especially when those having the children tend more and more to be irresponsible themselves. Then they want to blame the schools for their failure to do their duty of parentling. I did think that the movie came down too hard on the teachers unions. But of course envy amongst the working class is a tried and true technique for the owning classes to keep the underlings fighting with each other. No doubt unions have stiffled education, but centralized national standards and control, poor administration, and poor parenting are the real culprits.

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Agreed

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Take the teacher unions out of the system and cut back on admin. jobs which funnel money out of the classroom.

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1) Set up a system to get rid of bad teachers and bring in good teachers. The current system, which involves punishing teachers based on what grades their students are getting, is greatly flawed. Student feedback and making sure the teachers are educated themselves is a much better metric.

2) The government needs to stop standardizing everything. It's gotten to the point where there have been plans for every American student to take the same math tests. When you get to the point where teachers just open a book and teach what they've been told to teach, they are no longer teachers since there is no more room for creativity and addressing individual student needs. A better system is to encourage school principals and local administrators to find ways to hire better teachers.

3) Stop the teacher unions. Yes, being a teacher is a very challenging and often unrewarding job that must be respected, but by creating tons of red tape that creates the firing of bad teaches, the unions just worsen the problem. In other countries, being a teacher is as respectable as being a lawyer or doctor, but along with that respect comes expectations. If a teacher cannot teach, he or she should find another profession.

4) Many schools need to rehaul how they teach their students. One example is that they need to give less homework. This may sound like a paradox, but many countries where the students are well educated give less homework than countries where they are not. This is because they students learn the material in the classroom, as oppose to sleeping or doing homework during class (which happened a lot in my high school).

5) Schools should not be babysitting institutions. A school's primary purpose should be to educate. Period. They need to stop all these "please the parents" programs such as taking students out of class to teach them how not to be racist, and banning tag during recess because 'kids could get hurt!'.

6) This last one is a bit controversial, but if a student refuses to study, he or she should not be allowed to slow down the whole class. Find some way to filter out the self-destined dropout kids.

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I should add that it's not entirely the school's fault. Our culture in general seems to look down on education for some reason. Parents spoil their kids, and when their kids don't get an A they phone in the school complaining that the teachers are unfair. Unfortunately, the schools are the only part of the equation we have the power to fix.

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Yes.

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Great post hollanddv-1.



|Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

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AMEN to all your points except #3. Unions are not there just to guarantee good pay; they also aid in fair workplace practices.

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your arguments are in my eyes a little superficial.

1. How do you define a good teacher? I'm myself a teacher and I know, some students like the way I teach, some don't. It is a very personal question.

2. You said, less homework f. e. I can't approve. I'm a French teacher and as a matter of fact, you need to practice the language. No homework, it would make it difficult to learn a foreign language. In one point, you are right. I teach them new words in my lesson and I train them for 30 minutes but at the end, they need to practice at home too.

3. I'm a teacher in Germany and I don't understand why you are criticizing the teacher unions. A union is supposed to defend the rights of teachers and that's good for a governement would use the teachers endless. One example is: in our estate, we have to teach one hour more than in the other German estate since our estate has left the estate union. We must work more for less money.

4. I think, it is also time that parents take their responsabilities. In Germany, the reputation of teachers has gone down for many years. About 5 or 6 years ago, the German Chancellor G. Schroeder said in an interview, teachers would be lazy. Each year, my colleagues and me, we must hear from parents what we are doing is wrong. They reproached teachers a lot of things and always protected their children. That's gone so far that you must protocoll everything you say.

5. I don't think, teachers at school see themselves as baby-sitter. Teaching children not to be racist is something important... sometimes at home, they learn quite the opposite. American or even French society can not be considered as racist free!

6. In Germany, we've got an early preselection and it has been criticized from the OECD. The selection is made at the end of the 4th grade. If you are a good student, you go to the school Gymnasium (high school), a less good student to the "Realschule" and for the bad students the "Hauptschule". The problem is, you can't predict from the 4th grad, who is going to be good or not. People change but the problem is that if you have been sent to the Realschule and you are so good, it is almost impossible to be sent to the Gymnasium later. Another argument is the selection reproduce the society classes. A foreigner with good grads has good chance to be sent to the "realschule", the son of the doctor with the same grads is going to be sent to the Gymnasium. That's why I don't think, your solution is appropriate. If a kid don't want to work at school, it often comes from the attitude of the parents. I think, the parents should receive more pressure from the government.

7. I've noticed in the USA, you only have multiple-choice-tests what we don't do either in france or in Germany. We ask kids to write an essay in history, in French, German, english, politics aso from the 5th grade. We ask children to question everything, any arguments. I'm also a history teacher and my students always receive a source (historic document) and they must f. e. pick holes in arguments of the author. We don't glorify famous people from the past, as I've seen in the USA. Kids must be more critical and if the society is not...

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i enjoyed reading your post, bebebisous.



---
Have a heart. Please spay and neuter your pets.

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Thanks a lot whistal... I read my post again and found many errors!!! But it seems that it didn't disturb you. When I wrote this, I wanted to speak from another point of view: from a teacher and from another country.

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@ hollannd-1

1) I generally agree - although a student feedback system should be tempered by other methods.

2) There should be standards on what to teach, but not how to teach. Believe it or not, I do believe most admin try to hire the best teachers they can - it's a matter of the selection pool.

3) Unions are a double edged sword. Yes, they protect bad teachers. They also protect good teachers - and ALL teachers from getting screwed by the system. I think the unions need to self-examine and adjust, but I'd be afraid to go to work without their backing.

4) I actually agree. I work for an affluent community that cranks out high numbers in the college-bound graduate stats. These kids are killing themselves over insanely high expectations. Many of them are physically damaging themselves due to lack of sleep and stress.

5) Thank the lawyers. Liability issues cost school districts millions every year. One kid calls another kid a racial slur - and suddenly it's the school's fault for not creating a tolerant environment. It's a noble effort, but ultimately it's a waste of time, because I never saw a school assembly that did anything to curb racism in a school - it's all to prove to a judge that the school did everything within it's power to prevent kids from doing what they're probably going to do no matter what.

6) Failure is a part of education. People are afraid to recognize that. When someone falls, they have a chance to learn to get back up. If we trick them into thinking they never fell in the first place, then they don't develop some of the skills and attitudes that they'll need to survive later on.

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To add, I think k-12 should also be year round also.

For me, its not necessarily about good vs. bad teaching, its about empathetic teaching. I think Teachers need to know WHO they are teaching and what they go through. There needs to be that chemistry in that class, and for that to happen, there needs to be that relationship. Many have been trained well enough to figure out how to get the job done, but are so empty in the classroom. So it takes more out of the them. The less invested you are to something, the harder it is to get energy to do it. With no chemistry to feed off of, you tire quickly.

Part of the reason why other countries do better is because some work longer hours, and for others its because they have a system where the teacher will stay with you throughout your entire duration, making it it easier for them to stay invested in the student and REALLY care. If you are a failing student, that teacher will stay with you, they have more time in the academic year and get paid well enough from the gov. to make sure those kids get the material. Take Puerto Rico for example, the charter schools look crappy, but inside, those teachers work hard as hell, and spend after hours to do the job, and stay with that kid.

Its not like here, where if the kid barely passes a grade, he is just pushed through, next thing you know he's not in a class of his equals and is reading below his grade level; at which point, it is much too late to turn back.

SOME faculty stay after school, but most leave when the students leave. The few that DO stay, some are pretty snotty about having to go back over the material, deterring students from even asking. If students are acting up, they don't even take the time to provide that heart to heart, and let them know why they care about them succeeding. Soulless teaching, and the students see right through it all.

I got cursed out bad by a teacher once in the 8th Grade, told me to "Shut the Heck up" repeatedly, I teared up right there in class. He singled me out, and it was out of line, but you know what, he made up for it by talking to me about it, about WHY he said what he said and WHY he was irritated. I could relate to him after that, and never gave him any problems, and didn't want to let him down. Thats all it took for me, for others it might take more. I'm not suggesting that they yell, but to try something.

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Cut back on the amount of subjects and focus on the core studies. We expect our kids to know everything about everything and because of that they don't have enough time to focus on the most important things. More Math, more English, more Science, more History... less P.E., less wasting money on school sports. Add in language classes at an early age (on a computer so that there are more options than just German, French, or Spanish), computer classes, and art/literature/music classes ... and that's a full curriculum right there.

Optional ideas would be to have a class on philosophy, a class on comparative world religions, a class on economics... basically classes to teach children how to think and learn for themselves.

Witty closing remarks have been replaced by massive head trauma and severe hemorrhaging.

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[deleted]

America: A society where nobody takes responsiblity for their actions. The Reason for the problem as quoted by someone in the film "either the kids are born stupid, or the education system is failing us" I call bullsh!t Parents these days just need to anti up and take responsiblity for their kids. Kids these days are either 100% spoiled and are given no incentive to go out and acheive anything, or they are neglected by the parents and therefore already feel like failures and have no motivation and end up leading miserable lives. Of course the parents in this country need somebody to blame other than themselves though, right? By the way I'm not saying that there aren't bad teachers out there either though, but the way I'm understanding this film as of now is that everyone is putting all the blame entirely on the education system itself. I think a bigger problem is that so many kids come from broken homes, I mean we do live in a country where the divorce rate is over 65%. We can't just put the blame on the education system and wash our hands of it.


"Frankly Scarlett, I don't give a damn"

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The internet, a place where people like zavahoya1331 make broad, unsupported generalizations and then place blame on "these days" as if there was magical point in history where everyone was well educated and happy.



|Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

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[deleted]

I am in no way generalizing anything anymore than anyone else is on the thread, also, We are not going to fix education (education being the filling of society’s collective mind with good and correct information) by blaming schools and teachers.

"Frankly Scarlett, I don't give a damn"

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I am in no way generalizing anything anymore than anyone else is on the thread, also, We are not going to fix education (education being the filling of society’s collective mind with good and correct information) by blaming schools and teachers.


Why not? When I hire a professional, say a car mechanic or a doctor, I expect them to do the job I hired them to do. I don't blame myself saying, "Oh I should have repaired the car myself it isn't the mechanic's fault." That's ridiculous.

Occasionally my daughter doesn't finish her homework and the teacher will send a note home asking me to talk to her. Several times I have asked the teacher, "What did you say to her about not having the homework done?" And every time the answer has been the same, they didn't say anything. I don't mind taking some responsibility but if I'm going to do it all myself, why am I paying taxes for a public school system? They are supposed to be educators, not a babysitting service. Half my daughter's subjects I have to reteach her anyway. Too often when she's struggling with something I ask if the teacher went over it in class, "No."


|Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

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Part of that problem is that anymore teachers are afraid to say anything to students out of fear of being accused of something.

"Frankly Scarlett, I don't give a damn"

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hollanddv-1 - your points and suggestions are great, except one minor point. I disagree with student assessments as being any kind of metric for effective teaching. Assessments are opinions and can't really be substantiated - this is how we get into this standardization mess. But I don't have an answer to the problem either. With standardization you have some level of control over rogue teachers or districs who want to spend 12 weeks on Martin Luther King Jr and 5 minutes on George Washington. And yet student assessments leave the door open for lunatics running the asylum. I don't know - that's a tough one.

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aleisterhigen, turn on nesting so you are replying to the correct person. Your reply went to zavahoya1331, hollanddv-1 may not see your post.

|Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

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B.S.



|Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

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but if you bring a car into a mechanic with a crack in the engine block you don't get pissed when they say it can't be fixed or at least it's going to take a boat load of money and time.

I say that teacher did his/her job by giving your kid the materials and opportunity to learn, you and your kid can worry about the follow through. How nice it was to give you a heads up that your kid slacked. Society hasn't empowered teacher's to enforce a certain morality on the children. The decision a kid makes about doing or not doing homework is reflective of his/her work ethic. Teachers get in serious trouble if they try to impose a set of ethics beyond the basic set of school rules. Teaching morality is still supposedly the responsibility of a parent.

To often your kid says 'no', a teacher didn't teach something? Any chance your kid isn't being totally honest so you don't get pissed off at her but blame the teacher instead? Really if you think a teacher didn't teach something that is part of the school's curriculum, just call and ask the teacher. S/he can probably tell you exactly what minute of what day s/he did teach that and what exact activities were done to teach it. Plan books are cool like that.





we love you trolls, oh yes we do.
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but if you bring a car into a mechanic with a crack in the engine block you don't get pissed when they say it can't be fixed or at least it's going to take a boat load of money and time.


A cracked block is a sign of abuse.

I say that teacher did his/her job by giving your kid the materials and opportunity to learn, you and your kid can worry about the follow through. How nice it was to give you a heads up that your kid slacked.


I say that mechanic did his/her job by giving you the opportunity to fix your car, you can worry about the follow through. How nice it was to give you a heads up that your car wasn't running properly.

Absolutely, a professional shouldn't do their job, just give you the opportunity to do it for them and then complain because you don't.

Society hasn't empowered teacher's to enforce a certain morality on the children. The decision a kid makes about doing or not doing homework is reflective of his/her work ethic.


If by "enforce a certain morality" you mean communicate with their student about homework; then you are wrong. If mean something else then I'm not following you.

Teachers get in serious trouble if they try to impose a set of ethics beyond the basic set of school rules. Teaching morality is still supposedly the responsibility of a parent.


If the teacher isn't interacting with their pupils then they are not doing their job. It has nothing to do with "ethics" or "morality". Teaching is an interactive job.

To often your kid says 'no', a teacher didn't teach something? Any chance your kid isn't being totally honest


Is there any chance my kid is being totally honest? See here is the thing, once I teach her the subject she has no problem with it. So either my daughter is lying and the teacher is doing a terrible job or she is telling the truth and the teacher is doing a terrible job. See I live in the real world where you are expected to produce results, not excuses.

Really if you think a teacher didn't teach something that is part of the school's curriculum, just call and ask the teacher. S/he can probably tell you exactly what minute of what day s/he did teach that and what exact activities were done to teach it. Plan books are cool like that.


When the teacher tells me they didn't ask my kid about missing homework it really destroys their credibility. You may not believe this but I actually went to school myself and interacted with many teachers, not one of whom ever called my parents when I was missing homework without talking to me first.


Now there are some (Detroit, D.C., etc) school systems around the country that are just broken and I can't blame those teachers for having a laissez-faire attitude.

|Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

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OPINIONS ARE LIKE *beep* HAS ONE. SPECIFICALLY THE ILL INFORMED.

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Let me get this straight, you're pissed a teacher sent you a note informing you that your kid didn't do their homework? Teacher didn't do their job?

What was she supposed to do to the kid? Best option should have been inform you. Parents should be pissed when they're not kept in the loop and this is part of the problem.

If you don't want the responsibility of kids, wear a rubber.

Note to self: Sex Ed in schools.

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Your reading comprehension is abysmal. It's funny you got angry though.



|Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

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@McQualude--Your analogies are faulty at best. To compare a person's education to something mechanical like a car or even something that a doctor's visit can heal does a great disservice to that individual. With that being said, I will still use your analogies to make my points.

If a mechanic says, 'Hey your car has been fixed. Just make sure that you get an oil change every 3,000 miles.' You then do not follow their instruction and your car breaks down again. Is it the mechanics fault? Was there a level of responsibility that you, as the owner of the car, had?

How about you go to the doctor and the doctor says, 'I stitched you up but you need to take these antibiotics for the next two weeks.' You then do not take said antibiotics and get an infection. Is this the doctor's fault? Is any of the responsibility yours?

Now lets take your example for school. The teacher taught your daughter. How well is debatable. The fact that the teacher gave the homework to your daughter informs you, as a parent, what the teacher expects from your daughter. Your daughter did not do the work. What part of your daughter's failure to do an assignment is directly related to the performance of the teacher?

Making sure that you daughter does her homework is not 'doing it all yourself', just like taking antibiotics or getting a regular oil change is not 'doing it all yourself.' I appreciate the fact that you do take time with you daughter concerning her education, but as a parent, you should instill in her a level of accountability. She need to do the 'maintenance' work to keep her education working, just like your car needs an oil change to keep running.

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@McQualude--Your analogies are faulty at best. To compare a person's education to something mechanical like a car or even something that a doctor's visit can heal does a great disservice to that individual. With that being said, I will still use your analogies to make my points.


Analogies aside, my point was that if we train and hire experts then we expect a measure of performance from them, we expect positive results. If our current system is not producing the results we want then we need to change the system. On that note, I have stated elsewhere that I am not convinced that our system is 'broken' but I do believe it is old fashioned and could be improved.


*I started replying to your analogies but realized it would only dilute the point*

What part of your daughter's failure to do an assignment is directly related to the performance of the teacher?


Where did I blame the teacher for homework not being completed?

Making sure that you daughter does her homework is not 'doing it all yourself'


Nor did I say it was... if you want to disagree with me that's fine, but at least disagree with what I wrote. What bothers me is that I have to basically reteach her classwork, I might as well just home-school her.

but as a parent, you should instill in her a level of accountability. She need to do the 'maintenance' work to keep her education working, just like your car needs an oil change to keep running.


You bring up accountability but have not addressed my specific complaints about the teachers failing to communicate with the kids. Should only the students and parents be accountable for education? I have spoken with people who seriously believe that, all of them teachers btw.

My daughter no longer attends that school so this fall it will be interesting to compare with her new school.

|Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

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I understand the frustrations of a parent who feels that they are alone in the their pursuit of improving their child's education.

With that said, I cannot speak for you, your daughter, her teacher and the overall classroom environment of your daughter's class. I can only speak of your comments and how they come across in text. It seems that you put the blame solely on the teacher.

My point is this: Proper education is the combined effort of all the stakeholders involved. This includes the student, the teachers, the school (admin and environment) and the parents. It appears that there was a communication breakdown with your situation and that only hurts the student. Where the breakdown was, I cannot say. To solely blame the teacher because they are 'the professional' is too black-and-white.

You stated:

'Analogies aside, my point was that if we train and hire experts then we expect a measure of performance from them, we expect positive results. If our current system is not producing the results we want then we need to change the system.'

I am curious. Did your daughter have any bad experiences with teachers before this one? This is a very broad statement. I have had 'bad' teachers and made my way through it. Though I was frustrated, I worked my way out of it. In teaching, like any profession, there are those that excel, those that just get by, and those that are extremely horrid. To paint with such a broad brush does a disservice to those who actually take pride in their occupation.

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I will always lay the bulk of the blame on the teachers because they are professionals and it is their job to educate. It actually is very black and white. If teachers cannot perform then the system is broken and we should explore other solutions. If the the parents and society have equal blame then we have to start by educating everyone equally to be educators do away with the specialty of teaching.

|Statistics show that 100% of people bitten by a snake were close to it.|

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[deleted]

Are you crazy? Less P.E. and school sports? With this obesity epidemic happening in our country? Screw that!

The Arts (art/music/drama) and physical education and team sports should be just as important as math, history, science and English.

"Why don't we both blow this joint and then each other?"

-Love and Other Drugs (2010)

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Obesity is the responsibility of the parents, not the school system. School is for learning, not wasting all the tax funds on the football team.

Witty closing remarks have been replaced by massive head trauma and severe hemorrhaging.

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Obesity is everyone's responsibility and should be stamped out where you can.

Physical education IS learning and do you have any idea how important team sports are for growing minds as well as bodies?

"Why don't we both blow this joint and then each other?"

-Love and Other Drugs (2010)

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Team sports are just an excuse for the athletic kids to wear fancy jerseys and show off. The ones that actually *need* help aren't getting it.

Witty closing remarks have been replaced by massive head trauma and severe hemorrhaging.

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What an ignorant and inaccurate thing to say.

"Why don't we both blow this joint and then each other?"

-Love and Other Drugs (2010)

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Please point out the inaccurate and ignorant things in my statement so that I may address them.

Witty closing remarks have been replaced by massive head trauma and severe hemorrhaging.

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Team sports are just a fancy excuse for kids to wear jerseys and show off??? You don't think that's ignorant or inaccurate?

Team sports creates unity and social ties as well as teach physical education.

"Why don't we both blow this joint and then each other?"

-Love and Other Drugs (2010)

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Unity and social ties between whom? From what I remember of school sports in High School, there were the jocks... and everybody else. The vast majority of the school wasn't in sports and couldn't care less about them except when they spent enormous amounts of the school budget on a fancy bus for the football team. That didn't go so well when we were using worn out ten year old textbooks and had a paper shortage due to budget cuts.

Witty closing remarks have been replaced by massive head trauma and severe hemorrhaging.

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Between team members of course.

I don't think mismanagement of school funds is a good excuse for knocking sports and other forms of physical education.

"Why don't we both blow this joint and then each other?"

-Love and Other Drugs (2010)

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School's should address physical education, but ultimately can not be responsible for child obesity.

Team sports are an important part of a school environment, but when over-emphasized, they can impede the educational process.

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School's should address physical education, but ultimately can not be responsible for child obesity.


But they don't have to ignore it or help it along (or help it along BY ignoring it.) There's no harm in any way by providing healthy foods at the cafeteria and giving phys ed equal importance with the three Rs of learning.

Team sports are an important part of a school environment, but when over-emphasized, they can impede the educational process.


You're right. Phys ed and related activities should be treated equally with math, science, English, history and the arts (drama, music, art).

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But they don't have to ignore it or help it along (or help it along BY ignoring it.)


No, I wasn't implying that. I meant that problem of child obesity shouldn't be written off as another school failure. Being healthy is a lifestyle, and that's usually learned at home.


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my school's cafeteria served french fries, pizza... we had pop vending machines around every bend, had a school store that had any kind of candy you could imagine.... the argument that these re-enforce bad eating habits and do nothing to address obesity could be made... i think that does more damage than what being forced to square dance with some lesbian gym teacher named nancy in a lame PE class would do to counterbalance.


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12 steps to improve education
(In no particular order)

Disclaimer: I work in an inner city school and everything I write is based on my personal experience. Any use of the word you, your, or you’re, is meant in general terms. I also know that not ALL parents are the same and that a great many do a wonderful job raising their kids. I speak of the parents who DON’T raise their children properly.

This is in no way the only things that need to be done. But I think these are things that would make a good starting point. None of these items take funding into account. I think there can be a WHOLE other discussion on that. There are many places that state/federal government can cut wasteful spending and help fund education without affecting taxes or even cutting them.

1. Smaller Class Sizes: Current class sizes are at least 20 students per teacher. When we go to training we constantly hear how the students are getting harder to reach and they are lacking the knowledge they need to even start school more and more. In private schools small class sizes are something that is heavily advertised as it gives the teachers the ability to spend more time per child.

2. Teach fewer concepts at each grade level: Every year it seems they move student expectations down to lower grades in an effort to be seen as having a more rigorous curriculum. In reality what happens is that we have MORE information we have to stuff into a 9 month period. The drawback to this that we are not able to go as in depth for the concept and give a true understanding. This hurts the kids as they get to higher level subjects as they don’t have a solid foundation. I look at this as trying to put 10 lbs. of dirt in a 5 lb. bag.

3. Group the students according to ability: Today’s teachers have students all over the spectrum. The low kids suffer because the kids have to pass a test and teachers will tend to focus on the “bubble” kids. The high level kids suffer because they are stuck learning at the pace of the lowest kids in the class. The teacher has very little time to devote to these kids to push them further. An argument to this is that you put a stigma on the kids in the lower class and all the kids will know they are in the “dumb” class. Well, I hate to say it, but the kids already know who those kids are anyway. Another interesting thing I have observed in my years of teaching is that the kids don’t really care about who is smart and not. I personally think that the “stigma” is an adult condition.

4. No Politics: Okay, this is more of a fantasy, and I understand that if the gov’t is providing the funding then politics have to be somewhat involved. However, it has gotten to the point where nothing gets done correctly because of it. The right won’t listen to anything the left has to say, and vice versa. We end up getting politicians who know NOTHING about how education works making decisions on how it should be done.

5. Make is easier to get rid of bad teachers/administrators: I make no argument that there are bad teachers among us. In some parts of the country unions make it very difficult to get rid of teacher who are collecting a paycheck and waiting for summer. We need to have a fair and impartial way to get rid of these teachers. We need to also get rid of teachers/administrators who do not treat the kids properly. Along with this we need to make sure teachers have proper understanding of the subject they are teaching.

6. Change testing standards: To judge kids and teachers based on one test score on one day out of 180 is not fair to either person. The best way to judge kids and teachers is based on growth. To measure this they need to test to kids at the beginning of the year, then, test them on the same material at the end of the year to see how far they progressed.

7. Inclusion: Many areas practice what is called inclusion. This means that the Special Education kids are put in class with the mainstream kids. While for some cases this is not a bad things, in many cases the Special Ed kids are so far behind that it doesn’t help them. Another problem is that some of the kids have problems that a general Ed teacher is not trained to handle. My analogy for this is, if you were having heart problems, you would go to a Dr. that specializes in hearts, not a general family Dr.

8. More responsibility on students/parents: Parents are a child’s first teacher. If a child enters kindergarten and can’t write their name, I think the parent has not been doing their job as a parent, same with the alphabet. These are not things that are hard to teach to children. Parents also need to teach their children how to act properly in a school setting. We shouldn’t have to teach your kids right from wrong, or how to be respectful. Children also need to be held accountable for their education. If a kid comes to school and does absolutely nothing in class and the teacher does everything he/she can to motivate that child, calls home and talks to the parents, the child needs to face some consequences, not the teacher. Yes, there is due diligence on the teacher’s part, but should the teacher neglect the other students in his/her class because one student is lazy? There need to be more severe consequences for parents of children who are constant behavior problems, and no I don’t mean the kids who occasionally talk too much. I mean the kids who are constantly disruptive, disrespectful to other students and teachers, bully other students, commit crimes, and all other things that repeatedly take away from the learning of other students. I actually heard a parent tell her son (who is a behavior problem) that what his teacher says doesn’t matter because he isn’t the kids father.

9. Bonuses: I think bonuses for outstanding performance are a great idea in schools. However, I do not think that a teacher’s salary should in any way be tied to test scores. Most schools currently pay teachers on a scale based on years of service. I think this should be kept, but on top of that teachers can be eligible for bonuses based on a number of factors. Some of these factors can be student growth, performance appraisals, parent surveys, student surveys, additional staff development, and other factors. To base it on one factor alone is not fair to that teacher. Teachers do so much more than just teach in the classroom. We are often moms, dads, police officers, counselors, judges, detectives, and many other people to these kids. You cannot measure how a teacher may affect a child’s life on a spreadsheet. What if a teacher in 2nd grade teaches something that the child, when in 4th grade, remembers that helps them understand a concept in that class?

10. Easier to get rid of behavior problems: In my opinion, one of the huge advantages private schools have over public schools is that they do not HAVE to educate every kid in their area. They can choose who to accept, then, if the student is a behavior problem, they can kick that kid out of the school. In public schools, too often, children that are constant behavior problems face very few consequences. Kids these days are smart and learn early how to work the system. Some also have parents that teach them that teachers don’t matter and they don’t have to listen to them. There needs to be a way to get rid of these students permanently. They drain time, energy, and resources from the schools. They steal educational time from students who truly want to learn.

11. Team up with private industry/universities: In education lately, we constantly hear how kids these days are not prepared for the workforce and college. I agree with that to an extent. I think that we need to get private industry involved so they can help elementary, middle, and high schools prepare kids for what they are going to face in the “real world.” Now, this has to be done carefully to avoid any advertising in the classrooms, or “brainwashing” of kids. I think it needs to be things like industry standard stuff. Example: work with technology companies to help teachers better integrate technology in the classroom so the kids get quality exposure to technology, work with banks so kids learn some basics of money management, economics (not how to cripple an economy though ;))

12. Put cameras in schools: This is the fly paper issue (extremely sticky). It is a very sharp double edged sword. The reason I put this on my list is because too often teachers deal with parents who refuse to believe little Johnny can be breaking rules in class. It would be nice to be able to pull up video of little Johnny throwing things at other kids, bullying other kids, not doing his work. It would also be a nice motivator to be able to tell the kids that they are on video so if you act out I can show your parents. It can help keep the kids safe and properly identify students and staff members who violate codes of conduct and/or laws. Now, I understand the privacy issue. This is something that would require a perfect society where it wouldn’t get abused, and I think we all know that in our society pretty much everything gets abused by someone. The other option: believe me when I tell you what little Johnny does in class, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

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Thank you for such an insightful response. I appreciate that you stuck to the topic and didn't veer off into a political, cultural or racial argument.

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1. Smaller Class Sizes - more schools overall seem to be the answer here. But populations are getting out of control in some areas that make this a tough drain on resources. But this is hard to get into without getting political.

2. Teach fewer concepts at each grade level - if you could do #3, this would be easier to accomplish.

3. Group the students according to ability - I can't believe we ever moved away from this. Something tells me somebody in the "feel good 90's" decided that perception and feelings are more important than common sense; or someone decided that kids can't handle anything and should be coddled.

4. No Politics - can't get away from this as long as the taxpayers are footing the bills. But it's a nice thought.

5. Make is easier to get rid of bad teachers/administrators - see #4, but this comes down to the power of the unions and the seniority system, at least with the teachers.

6. Change testing standards - Actually you need both growth measurement and standardized testing. Although funding could be determined by growth goals met. The standard tests should indicate whether you graduate or not from high school. A diploma should actually mean something after all.

7. Inclusion - I agree. Inclusion for special ed kids is ridiculous. Again, someone decided that an IQ of 42 just means they're "learning different." No common sense at all. But the other problem is a society of over-diagnosis. If you took a poll, every kid has some form of "learning difference." It doesn't really mean anything anymore, but schools everywhere have to make allowances for it.

8. More responsibility on students/parents - excellent points.

9. Bonuses - if you take out the unions, you could have a more common sense approach to pay raises.

10. Easier to get rid of behavior problems - ah, now we're back to politics again, unfortunately. Public Education is seen as a right, not a privilege. Why? Because taxes pay for it. But taxes pay for the public roads too - that doesn't mean you can drive as fast as you want! Yes, kids should be booted out of school left and right if they interfere with the learning of others. Period.

11. Team up with private industry/universities - believe it or not, "take your child to work day" used to be about this. And in the old days, industries visited schools all the time - some vocational programs that kids could go off and do work study with in high school. I didn't realize this doesn't happen anymore, but it may depend upon the district. And economics used to be a required class to graduate high school - so you learned how to balance a checkbook, compound interest, etc. Is this not required anymore? Or has it just come down to reading and basic math?

12. Put cameras in schools - I see this coming. But I predict the teacher's unions would fight it because teachers would be under a microscope too. It's tricky - not everyone feels comfortable working in front of a camera, but ultimately it could have some good benefits.

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1. Focuses, students should be able to focus on what they're interested on within several genres, Education, Science, Business, computer technology, and Engineering. Individual class curriculums could build on these, such as Psychology for science in business focuses. That way, instead of trying to teach every student biology and thus making it impossible for them to dissect an animal and learn about the insides and have a real education, we could give those interested in medicine the opportunity while giving those interested in business courses with a science background that would benefit them in a business environment.

2. Bring back Apprenticeship, Add Certification Tests, and eliminate the need for college being the be all and end all of education for a real job. College does not need to be that important. It never was. WHen it wasn't America was the greatest country in the world, then Jimmy Carter got in, then Reagan, and soon college was the biggest thing in the world, and you can't get a job anywhere without a Bachelors degree.

3. Vouchers give school choice to the parents, and have schools compete over the students offering better programs suited to fit a students needs.

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Everyone has to focus their education eventually, but not too soon. Remember, part of the point of public education is to produce an informed population with enough knowledge to make rational decisions that result in a stable and healthy society.

I've never seen a High School curriculum that taught rocket science, rather the opposite sadly. They are at best at a level of general knowledge. Once a student has finished the basic courses, most schools offer advanced electives that allow kids to specialize either via AP college level classes or in vocational ed classes.

Um, yea, there is probably an over emphasis on college in some schools, but I don't think citing 'the good old days' is really a good argument for voc ed programs. Those were completely different times, with a completely different world distribution of resources. Our country is not a manufacturing economy any more, probably because we aren't willing to pay as much as it would cost to produces products made by people who earn a living wage, have healthy workplaces and healthcare, so we send our money to countries who don't bother to do all that. We have made ourselves into an economy of 'idea people' that think up the products that other countries produce, and 'idea people' need diplomas.

Vouchers sound good, that way when people get pissed at a school they can either go somewhere else, and some where else, and some where else, until they realize it might not be the schools that have the problem. :)






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Public education IS a right.

The camera thing is a bad idea. I can perfectly understand the good intentions behind it but ultimately it brings more harm than good. It's against our right to privacy and could influence how teachers and students behave in the classroom.

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As a fellow educator, I second a lot of your thoughts on this matter. In fact, as I saw how many people here were bantering back and forth--losing the focus of the topic thread--I was just setting down to write out a lot of the points you made. Thank you for saving me some time in that respect. Again, kudos and keep on trucking. :o)

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We have to question what the goal of education is. I, like many others, believe it is to educate all students. Going back to the ideas that only some students can (and/or should) be educated is returning to sentiments expressed in the nineteenth century. There are absolutely cases of students where regular education is not the solution, but these students are not as common, and should be provided with a viable alternative.

3. Group the students according to ability

Tracking is not the option. Research continues to suggest that tracking is incorrectly implemented and introduces wide degrees of segregation. Classrooms should exist where the higher level students help the other students, and lower level students can interact and contribute their own ideas. There are examples in different subject areas of de-tracked classrooms where all students are challenged and end up learning.

I also don't have the source on me for this next fact, but I have heard it from a university educator: higher level students suffer very little from de-tracking but lower level students gain much more.

7. Inclusion

Many earlier sentiments can be reexpressed here. Outside of the extreme behavioral cases, all students can be educated within a regular classroom. Now that might mean current teachers have to take some night or summer courses on special education or have a special education teacher within their room, but it can work. Coteaching is actually becoming one of the most viable solutions to help make inclusion work.

10. Easier to get rid of behavior problems

Most of the time, these students needs aren't being met. And by kicking them out, we are simply sending them off to a life filled with under-achievement and poverty. New York University educator and professor Pedro Noguera has some very interesting essays surrounding school punishment.

Put cameras in schools

To me, this just reinforces the belief that these students need to be carefully observed and watched to make sure they don't break the rules.

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research suggests?!?! boy am I tired of that phrase. what research, done where, in what conditions with what population? Sure mainstreaming/differentiation/heterogeneous grouping works in some settings with some demographics with a certain level of resources, but unless you can almost exactly replicate that setting, your 'research' isn't really worth a hill of beans.

It is a constant struggle in psychological and sociological research to control your confounds and do an actual valid experiment that can demonstrate causality. In educational research it is, I think, impossible.

If you would like an interesting exercise, go back thru educational journals and have a look at all of the fads that were supported by 'research' that were later found to be unworkable at best, damaging at worst. There are some amusing ones (open classrooms :))

Behavior problems shouldn't be just thrown away out of the education system, but if they are hurting the rest of the kids by eating up school resources, the damage has to be limited. Then the fight becomes convincing society to give up enough of the right kinds of resources to rehab those kids.

and yes, kids have to be watched. especially the ones who try to rape their classmates in the cafeteria before school, the ones who try to deal crack out of the bathroom and the ones who try to jump/knife the kid from the neighborhood who won't join the gang but is trying to date one of the gang's sister....which is stuff that happened where I am.

Most schools have nothing near the kind of societal support that they need to succeed, it's triage. either save the one triple bypass pt or put casts on the 7 pts with broken arms.

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3. I had a teacher in my school actually do thiw with pretty good success. She and her team teacher (not in the same room) grouped their "high" kids and "low" kids together and had their mid level kids in a different class and it worked well for them.

7. the same teacher from above first taught a self contained special ed class, kids that are now being mainstreamed in school. She has a degree in special education and deaf ed. She feels that inclusion is a bad idea. She saw tremendous gains from her students when she was self contained. She is trained to work with them, general ed teachers are not. Would you go to a general physician for heart surgery? I doubt it.

10. You dont understand what I mean by behavior problems. I mean the kid that cusses out a teacher, principal, throws a book at another student's parent, throws a chair down the hall, tries to slam a door shut on his teacher, tells another kid he is going to bring a knife to school and cut her, snatches a bag from his mom and yells at her. Those are actions I have seen from kindergarten, 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade students. And we have very little we can do outside suspend them for 3 days, maybe AEP for 6 weeks.


Did I mention the parent that stood in the office and cussed out our asst principal because we wouldn't let her daughter wear flip flops to field day to avoid inury, which is a district policy, call downtown to complain about this rule, and tell her daughter that the principal doesn't run "sh*t" right in the office?

when people today talk about school they think of when THEY were in school. Things have changed a lot since then, I promise. Spend a week in a school worknig and I garuntee you will think differently about what we do.

I cant speak about unions, I work in TX and even in education unions hold no power. They can make suggestions and ask for things, but can't force anything.

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yep, as a teacher in a title 1 urban school, I say right on.


the only thing is in #5, and in just about every discussion like this, the phrase 'bad teacher' comes up. I just want people to define that term or say how it could objectively be measured.




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Get rid of teachers' unions, and attach the money to the student. This should be done on a federal level so kids in poor areas won't get the short end of the stick. With money attached to the kids and freedom to choose where you send your kids to school, schools will have to compete therefore improving education quality.

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In a word Propaganda, the only way to improve education is to change the expectation of students and parents.

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As a kindergarten teacher in a Title 1 school, I will say a few things:

1A- we MUST start holding parents accountable for being parents. I cannot tell you how many kindergarten students I've had the past decade that started school without any preschool, knew zero letters and numbers, could not count past three and couldn't write their own name. With where we want our kindergarten children to end up, we have to start putting some standards on what a child needs to know before they start. More scary is the fact that kindergarten is NOT a mandatory grade level! Thank God most parents do not know this little fact. By the end of kindergarten, we want our students to be able to do the following: know all their letters and sounds, count to 100, recognize all numbers 0-30, write a two sentence writing piece with inventive spelling but use of common sight words, read at an independent level, etc...

1B- to piggy-back on 1A, we do not hold parents responsible for getting their children to school. I had a student this year miss 45 days of school and was tardy for over 55 days (when I say tardy, I am talking about missing at minimum 1 and a half hours of the day). Now I can do nothing because as I said, kindergarten is not a mandatory grade, but she had a third grade brother who missed the same days as her. The third grade teacher also had no course of action because we no longer have a truancy officer and my sister in law who is a social worker in child protective services says CPS cannot do anything about truancy issues with children.

2- we MUST have people making decision for education that have some idea of how education works. So many of these people making "educational policies" believe they are experts because they went to school themselves. Unfortunately, times have changed.

3- we have to hold the children accountable. It is impossible to teach an entire class when you have one bozo in the class occupying all the teacher's time. Spock said it best: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or one." Plus, the days are gone where parents "side with the teacher". These days, many parents do not side with the teacher, make excuses for their children and do not foster their child's learning at home. Parents do not realize that I might be their teacher, but they still are the child's primary educator.

4- we must stop trying to compare our educational "scores" to other countries. We offer EVERYONE a free education in America which is not the case everywhere else. Some countries "weed out" the students that they deem "not school material" and send them to trade schools and other life paths. We do not.

5- we CANNOT go to a merit pay system for teachers. It is IMPOSSIBLE to compare apples to oranges. I LOVE teaching in the Title 1 school setting. Title 1 schools are schools that receive extra funding because they are determined to be "at-risk" school areas due to a high population of low economic families. But, my students start school with much less experience and far inferior parental involvement and support as the children from "north end" schools in the same district I teach in. Because of this fact, you cannot compare my students' scores to the others. Now if you wanted to compare my students growth to others, feel free. Where my students start compared to where they end the year would reflect MUCH more growth than the north end even though the north end students finish the year further along overall. Plus, if you went to a merit pay system, teachers and/or principals would simply "fudge the numbers" in my opinion.

6- we have to focus less on DATA and assessments and more on the students. With the number of assessments we have to give, it is a wonder we have any time to teach at all. I give over 45 MANDATORY assessments throughout a school year (IN KINDERGARTEN!) and there are only 38 weeks in a school year.

7- we have to worry less about being politically correct with everything. Too much time and money is being wasted on frivolous crap: the Pledge says God so I don't have to stand, my child is being treated unfairly so I'm suing the district, that's not fair...the whining makes me want to vomit.

there are other things we can do...but my fingers have begun to bleed from all this typing. But before you go and try to blame everything on schools systems and teachers, remember there are problems that you may not have considered. And, before you bash me, offer to substitute teach in local school districts for a while to see what we are dealing with. Oh, and this may shock you a little: even being a lower elementary public school teacher, I am a conservative and believe in less government and am not a huge fan of Unions (despite being a member of one...I have no choice). So I am a unique situation here.

~never argue with an idiot- they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

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I agree with most of the points made in this thread. I taught at the middle school and high school level, in a variety of urban settings (title I, suburban beach community, etc). I currently work at the university level with student teachers going into those same type of schools in a HORRIBLE economic climate. You are going to pink slip the very saints who put up with more s*8T than you've seen in your life, and then 'maybe' give them back their job in August two weeks before school starts???? Get real. Why would anyone WANT to go into that type of work environment?

Priorities are different for different populations (and I say that generally speaking...but the less educated a population is, the more ground a teacher has to make up - cultural capital), and parents are a critical key.

My kids know that if they screw up with a teacher, they will be punished. Of course, privately, I also keep a very close eye on any of their teachers as well. If I see things or hear things that feel questionable to me, I have to gauge my response. My son had a teacher whose only level of communication was screaming at her students. A lot. My daughter has had numerous temper tantrums that have had her teachers calling me. It varies student to student, teacher to teacher, and parent to parent.

IN my own work setting, why is it I'm interacting with parents of an 18 year old who doesn't know how to make his or her own phone calls, find out or take care of his or her own business? While some parents are absent and uninformed, others hover around and are STILL UNINFORMED, and just muck everything up for a kid that should be independent enough to handle their own life anyway.

Okay...so this turned into a rant rather than pose any real solutions. But I agree with the other posters...including people have to ACTUALLY teach in challenging school environments to know what the hell we are talking about.

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Start paying teachers more. There is no way the "best and the brightest" college students in our nation are going to study to be teachers when they can make millions more in countless other fields. If we can attract more students to the field, it will increase competition for teaching positions and will weed out the incompetent candidates. Problem solved.

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