Just watched it, really gone off Lennon now. Thanks BBC lol.
What a hypocritical douche, constantly wining about his dad not being there for him, then he goes and does the exact same thing to his kid.
We're all hypocrites to some extent.
shareI probably would've agreed with you before I became a parent. Now that I am one, I've learned not to judge parents.
shareWell, as someone said, we're all hypocrites in one way or another. And yes, he did go and do the same thing to Julian -- unfortunately, patterns like this tend to repeat unless nipped in the bud with awareness, therapy, even.
But also, having said that, it's never been a secret that Lennon was not always the nicest person on the block, at any level. He always was an ascerbic and rather harsh set of contradictions. People deify him but he was far from saintly.
When I think up a decent sig...I'll let you know.
Yeah I feel a bit harsh about making this thread straight after I watched. I love the beatles music but dont know a whole lot about the guys personally.
I guess we tend to have rose tinted views on idols like lennon. I was the same after watching walk the line and ray.
I dont know what i expect, they are real people after all
It's probably healthy for us to see these more realistic portrayals of the people we can come to idolise.
If you're interested in John Lennon and want to learn more about his life; Nowhere Boy is also a very good film. It goes into more depth about his relationship with his parents.
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I think it's human to forget that our celebrities are human too, yep. Don't be hard on yourself for that, we've all done that I think.
Like luke_leonhart says, it's healthy to see the other side of things and put our admired individuals into perspective.
The tricky thing with Lennon is that not only are The Beatles massively iconic (I too am a fan and was basically raised on a Beatles music diet from birth!) but since Lennon's shocking and abrupt murder, it's been even easier for his fans to go down that road of idealizing him as a person.
There are rabid Lennon fans who believe the man was a god and will not hear a word said against him. The reality is, of course, that nobody alive is perfect. Lennon in his personality came very close to very, very far from perfect...he had some cool views, interesting political ideals, and like any of us he could sometimes be a shining example of decency and altruism. But also like some of us, he could be a complete ass hole, knowingly and with intent.
I just have a problem with the people who knowingly choose to ignore those very negative aspects of Lennon. You can't even reason with some of those people.
When I think up a decent sig...I'll let you know.
The interesting thing about Ray Charles was that he was very much alive when the movie "Ray" was being filmed and had wanted the film to be warts and all. He said the movie wouldn't be as interesting if it wasn't and admitted him self that he was no angel. In later life following on from what we see depicted in the biopic he did clean up his act and learned his lesson all be it he certainly learned it the hard way. It has made wonder though what became of his former assistant who had remained loyal until he quite rightly quit!
shareTo be fair to Lennon, with regards to his relationship with Julian, he tried to repair it in the early 70's, and they had a pretty healthy relationship up until his death. He even played drums on his Walls and Bridges album at the age of 11. You have to remember that this biopic depicts by far the most bitter time of Lennon's life; the end of The Beatles and his divorce with Cynthia and his country and past. Unfortunately that included Julian for a few years, a lot of which, as the film depicts, were spent in a drug-addled confusion full of hypocrisy and anger. Remember that before and after this period, John wasn't quite so mean, and, although still far from perfect, he was a far nicer bloke most of the time.
shareJust watched it. Have loved the Beatles for as long as i can remember, after seeing this biopic that was awesomely put together, I now view John Lennon as being arrogant and ignorant of others, ditching Julian and Cynthia like that, and turning his back on Paul, also giving his best mate the elbow.
Lennon was certainly an insecure, alienated and confused who was always thinking one way or another.
He just came across as thick and bombastic to me, but then I am more of a Stones fan!Just need to add, no hero worship here too young, no deifying him what was it someone said about Kate Moss, just a bird from Croydon, same with Lennon a bloke from the Pool. Certainly didn't strike me as intelligent. Oh sorry and I know I'll get a kicking for this as I'm not a parent but he was a bloody hypocrite where Julian was concerned he did do exactly the same to him. I always thought if it happened to you you try your damndest not to let it happen to your kids.
shareI'm not a parent either, oakcourt, but I agree with you, he was a hypocrite to do exactly the same to Julian that was done to himself, and you'd think a so-called "intelligent" man who apparently always sought to grow and learn and improve himself, would have realized what a lousy move it was to just write Julian off along with everything else he wanted to move on from...
Also, I wish parents would not feel that the opinion of non parents, on a matter like this, can not possibly be valid, therfore we "shouldn't judge." As simply a human being seeing a human child being abandoned, that bigotry irks me.
It doesn't take being a parent to realize that some things should be "judged" as just bad, rotten, irresponsible parenting, full stop. It doesn't take being a parent to still know that something is just not on. Yes parenting is a tough job and things can happen that another parent can empathize and sympathize with. One can make a case for a parent not being able to cope with a difficult child. One can make a case for a parent becoming overwhelmed and having a breakdown. One can make a case for many things that are due to the enormous pressures on parents which non-parents have not experienced the full brunt of.
But in the case of just walking out and never even trying to stay in the boy's life, simply because you don't love your ex anymore and are excited by pastures new? There's never an excuse for just not being interested anymore, and completely erasing your kid from your life.
When I think up a decent sig...I'll let you know.
To all the Lennon critics, to be fair, lets make five movies about your life, and analyze everything you have ever done or said in your life with a magnifying glass and fine toothed comb. And air it all out in the open for millions of people to see.
All humans are flawed and imperfect beings. There are no heroes. Did you really think John was some Saint or perfect being? Sorry to burst your ignorant bubble. He was troubled, angry, bitter, human, and often an *beep* to those around him. Sorry to shatter your infantile fantasies about the perfection of the man.
On the other hand, many including myself, consider him to be an artistic genius, despite whatever personal failings he possessed. We have all done some pretty screwed up *beep* that we have later regretted or realized was wrong, why would John be any different?
I think one thing you need to keep in mind with Lennon is that he didn't have a normal life either his upbringing or his career. I mean he became a father in 1963 then the Beatles broke big with world tours, tv shows, radio shows 24x7. He even admitted that he was more intent on his career than being a father. I suppose he could of sacked the Beatles in 1964 (reneged on all recording contracts and screwed his bandmates) and been a bus driver and helped out more with Julian. Would that of been enough to pass your evaluation of him?
Lennon's failing's with Julian are not new news. He was pretty honest about them. Did you just find out about them via this film? When he was 35 and had Sean - he had more control of his career, didn't have the same demands on him and setout not to let the same thing happen. The wildcard is how things may of progressed with John + Julian if he had lived in the 80's and beyond. I have my thoughts on that and they probably don't mirror yours.
I haven't seen this film yet -- I'm going to watch it when it's on tonight -- but I don't think you can judge it as being a totally accurate depiction of the life of John Lennon.
For instance, going by the plot summary here on IMDB, it sounds like some of the stuff between John and his father Fred isn't quite accurate. According to what I'd read in a recent biography of John Lennon, when John became reacquainted with his father toward the end of Fred's life, Fred had a much younger girlfriend. John was helping them out financially -- to get a house among other things, if I remember correctly. There might've been a big stir in the British tabloid press about Fred and his girlfriend, but there wasn't -- to quote the summary -- "one last showdown between father and son" because they were on friendly terms!
John Lennon as being arrogant and ignorant of others, ditching Julian and Cynthia like that, and turning his back on Paul, also giving his best mate the elbow.
I remember reading an interview with Lennon after the divorce and remarriage referring to Julian as a "Saturday Night special" that happened because of drink and the whole thing had been a sham (as he had to marry Cynthia or else). The inference being that his marriage to Yoko was the only thing right and legit...
John only had his father leave (arguably because he had to go off and make a living and his mother and Aunt were trying to keep him away).
Julian had his father (who could afford to live anywhere and whose mother encouraged contact) leave him AND tell the entire world what a complete mistake he thought he'd been as compared to his new family...
If anyone is a saint it's Julian for giving Lennon a chance to mend fences.
Always remember the man who wrote "imagine no possessions" owned a number of homes and mansions at the time of his death...
Yeah, it was his money and he earned it. It's just ironic.
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Last night, I was lying back looking at the stars and I thought...where the *beep* is my ceiling???
Having watched Lennon Naked, I thought the acting, especially Christopher Eccleston, despite being too old for the role in certain scenes, was pretty good (well, the guy who plays Paul I just recently saw as Moriarty in Sherlock, and I'm afraid that colored his performance for me. I kept on hearing Moriarty in his vocal performance, not Paul McCartney.) I really saw how a "showdown" between John and Fred could've happened -- though whether it did or not is debatable. The scenes between John and Fred were strong, as was the scene with John recounting to Janov the choice he was given as to which parent he went with. I'm not sure, though, that that scene which took place between him and Pete Shotten actually occured. (It's been a while since I've read Shotten's book about Lennon; I'll have to re-read it to see what he says).
I thought the ending was kind of anti-climactic. But then again, it's kind of hard in an hour and a half to sum up the life of such a complex figure (or, in this case even just seven years of his life -- though tumultuous, important years they were).
Lennon's life was filled with irony: At five (not six, as this movie states), he was forced to choose between his parents; he chose his mother, essentially banishing his father from his life. When John's son Julian was five, John and Cynthia divorced -- Julian was essentially abandoned the same way John had been, and at the same age. Sean Lennon was born in 1975; John was murdered in 1980, when Sean was five...
Robotrix, you're not on MoviePlex forums under a different name, are you?
Sorry you found out how human Lennon was and that he doesn't pass your judgements. It's not like he tried to hide his faults when he was alive. Perhaps you can go on now and find a more "perfect" hero to worship. Good luck.
shareI love this post, thegreyrat30... It seems as if it were written in the style of Lennon himself.
No one is a bigger Lennon fan than I and, honestly, the dual nature of his character is one of the things that draws me to him the most. He was a creative genius....and he could be a mean bad boy. All I know is that he has given me some of my best memories - whether in concert, his books, and, of course, the music.
There are plenty of films that idolize Lennon -- IMAGINE: JOHN LENNON is one good one, for instance, which should win you back over.
LENNON NAKED is more for the person who has had enough iconography and wants to see some of the other side. Lennon was a great man, yet it's instructive to see him in three dimensions rather than two. The film doesn't claim to represent the entire extent of his life and persona and influence, but only those bits during a small time period that help explain how complex he was inside, why he left his sham marriage and the Beatles and the UK, and so forth. I enjoyed it quite a lot, but then again I was brought up with a lot of Lennon iconography. I still think he was one of the greatest influences for peace and nonviolence the world has ever had.
And until you've had the experience of being abandoned by both parents at the age of six, and having the world intrude on your every step for all of your adult life, I wouldn't stand in judgment of him.
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"THERE ARE NO HEROES." If you like the man's music, listen to it, but don't make him out to be a hero or perfect human.
Who are your heroes? I would like to shoot them down one by one-
Martin Luther King? Cheated on his Ph.D. dissertation.
Founding Fathers? Most all of them were racist, slave owners.
JFk? Cheated on his wife DOZENS OF TIMES and was addicted to pain medication for his back problem.
J Edgar Hoover? Gay alcoholic.
Get the picture now?
Well for sure I never put him on a pedestal like some Beatles fans I know. As a person, I just knew of him what was portrayed in the Beatles films. I figured he was undoubtably a real person with faults but this definitely reassures me that one's best off not knowing that much about our heroes.
One has to wonder, if he'd lived longer, how long til he would've felt remorse over how he up & left Cynthia &, particularly, Julian?
Julian's made it publically known he's up & forgiven his dad. Still...
What makes you think that he didn't feel remorse at some point between when he left them and when he died??
share Forget remorse, he married Cynthia because of the pregnancy. I would have also left everything and went for Yoko. She is a true, trailblazing artist that doubles as a Mommy figure. Her breasts were not bad either. She was just what John needed and he had the cajones to go for it. I salute him for that.