This movie was just a big middle finger to the 80's - Turtles Forever (2009) Discussion

[–] 14 years ago

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In my humble opinion the part where they cry and huddle round raph is really the only insult to the old toon.

That was the biggest problem I had with it, but I don't agree that was the only insult. They portrayed the 80s toon way more goofier than they usually did, Leonardo not taking a situation seriously being one of them. The movie was still fun, but I wish they would of portrayed the 80s turtles more accurately (and with the original voices, though they sound-alikes did better than I thought).

I an't afraid of no ghosts!

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] marmion_shahrizai 13 years ago

Yeah, they portrayed the 80s Turtles to be way sillier than they actually were. I'm actually rewatching the series 80s series (currently in the middle of the 2nd season) and the way they act in the series compared to the way they're shown in the movie is pretty different. There are some parts the movie does well, like showing Donatello's ingenuity and Michaelangelo and Raphael were spot on most, if not at least half of the time, but in the cartoon they take situations seriously when needed - especially Leonardo. In fact there's multiple times in the series where Michaelangelo mentions pizza and the other Turtles get mad at him for not taking the situation seriously.. :) I also didn't like how they made it seem like the Turtles only ever do anything to save April... she's not Princess Peach, the running gag was that April never knew what was going on, not that they had to save her all of the time.

I was very glad that they put the Turtle Van and the Turtle Blimp in.. But seriously they just completely ruined 80s Shredder and Krang. :(

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[–] big_t997 13 years ago

I'm pretty sure that is what the creation team was going for. I bet if you ask anyone on the staff they probably loved the 80's cartoon because like you, they grew up watching it, and as a kid stuff like this doesn't really bother you.

However, they had a chance to go back to all the turtle related stuff and merge it together, how would that not be awesome as a fan?

I just think as homage to turtles they did that way to be tongue and check, which to me was nothing wrong, it was over exaggerated on purpose to really drive their point, which at the end was thrown away anyways and just one big thank you to the TMNT universe and the fans.

The only people that really got it was those who grew up watching it, the kids of today who just started watching because of the new series probably still don't really understand what was going on, but the simple matter of the fact was, they didn't need to still be a fan and I think thats what they were going for.

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[–] laeyisoracle 13 years ago

This movie was just another piece of modernistic propaganda. 80s TMNT were more light-hearted, but never as downright silly as portrayed in this movie. They goofed off when they the time was right to goof off, but also were business when it was time to get serious. This movie, to me, is another jab modernism takes at the past, and how anything before the present is inferior, outdated and worse than our current state of existence, and should be mocked, ridiculed and beaten down to show it's inferiority. It's an unhealthy way to look at things, and an unhealthy message to give to kids.

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[–] the_skipper 13 years ago

I came to this board, thinking I was the only one on this:

I liked the movie. However, I was a huge fan of the old turtles, I grew up with those characters, watched the show regularly on TV, had the movies and a couple of episodes on VHS, had of them amazing TMNT toys.

Caught a bit of the 2003 turtles and liked it as well, okay. I think they managed to do a pretty good job, a more than decent show that lasted long enoguh and had its great moments.

But they really mocked the old ones, didn't they? I'm sorry, it was in fact disrespectful. Yes, it was a middle finger at times. If it was comedy, it was cheap.

It had the right attitude towards the comic book Turtles, since if it wasn't for them- no TMNT today, but they should've had more respect for the 87 version.

Turtles hugging/crying, running away from battle, being plain inadequate- no, this is not what the turtles were about. It comes off as pretentious- "Woo, it's 2010 now, we can go back and mock it, cause it's different than the way we do it nowadays". It shouldn't work that way.

This simply was not the right way to go here, since it alienates fans a bit. Could've loved this movie, if done right, really. Now it's half baked and will be enjoyed mostly by fans of the 2003 turtles.

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[–] lilej2 13 years ago

@big_t997 you're extremely wrong. This entire board is a disagreement to your entire comment

i don't have a sig

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[–] cyberdynesystems101 13 years ago

Now it's half baked and will be enjoyed mostly by fans of the 2003 turtles.Actually, a lot fans of the 2003 series are fans of 1987 series too. The majority of this movie was enjoyed by both parties. But again yeah, the criticism was mainly about how the 87 Toon wasn't portrayed accurately. 87 Shredder wouldn't have let himself be kicked around by 03 Shredder like that, or lost so easily by Karai. It would be have been more interesting if when he first saw her, they fought for at least a bit then Shredder loses, but instead he loses with one kick.Despite that, it's still a fun plot overall, just could have been handled better. The way the 87 Cartoon was animated was practicualllry impressive (they looked alsmot exactly the same)I an't afraid of no ghosts!

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[–] cyberdynesystems101 13 years ago

Now it's half baked and will be enjoyed mostly by fans of the 2003 turtles.

Actually, a lot fans of the 2003 series are fans of 1987 series too. The majority of this movie was enjoyed by both parties. But again yeah, the criticism was mainly about how the 87 Toon wasn't portrayed accurately. 87 Shredder wouldn't have let himself be kicked around by 03 Shredder like that, or lost so easily by Karai. It would be have been more interesting if when he first saw her, they fought for at least a bit then Shredder loses, but instead he loses with one kick.

If you think those were a let down though, originally they wanted to use the were going to use the theme song and scores from the cartoon, but the original composer (or something to that degree) wouldn't allow the rights to it (apparently this is happening alot with that theme).

Despite that, it's still a fun plot overall, just could have been handled better. The way the 87 Cartoon was animated was practicality impressive (they looked almost exactly the same). That flashback to the 87 Universe looked like a new episode of the 87 Series. The sound a likes weren't too bad (Donatello and Raphael I thought sounded the best).

I an't afraid of no ghosts!

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[–] soul_reaver265 12 years ago

To be perfectly honest, I had no problems with how the '87 Turtles - or the '87 characters as a whole, for that matter - were treated. I can understand why people would be upset about it, but I've got a few things to say in response.

Henceforth, for the sake of this post, I shall refer to the '87 and '03 cartoons as "Classic" and "Modern", respectively.

First things first: Let's not kid ourselves here. The Classic Turtles cartoon started out reasonably serious, but it only got progressively more comedic as it went on. In fact, by the show's 8th season, it got re-tooled in an attempt to make it comparatively more serious again. Examples include...

- New animation, a new heavy-metal-esque spin on the theme song and a new opening sequence to match (which, for some odd reason, spliced in clips from the first live-action movie).
- Introducing a new villain in Lord Dregg, which in turn led to...
- Putting Shredder and Krang on a communal bus for the remainder of the series. It should also be noted that aside from a few more villainous moments before their departure - like Shredder blowing up the Channel 6 building - they had otherwise become the old married couple Turtles Forever portrays them as, and didnt even get a proper send-off.
- Shorter seasons (8 episodes each, I believe) which in turn allowed for a arcing story about the Turtles dealing with advancements in their mutations which - taking a page from The Incredible Hulk - sporadically turned them into hulking brutes.

Yes, this movie exaggerated the goofy elements of the old cartoon to their most logical point and the Classic cast is largely treated like a bunch of hollow-headed nimrods, but they are also the ones who set the plot in motion and keep the movie going

- The Classic Turtles attempt to send the Technodrome back to Dimension X permanently, and in the process, are inadvertently sent to the Modern TMNT Dimension.
- Classic Shredder seeks out his counterpart upon realizing that this new world houses its own version of the Turtles, hoping for a team-up and effectively enabling the great big mess that Ch'rell unleashes when he gets his mitts on the Technodrome. That fact is rather brutally driven home in the following exchange from the uncut version of the film...

Modern Casey: I still don't get it. Which Shredder is back, doing what, to who?
Classic Mikey: All I know is, we wouldn't be in this mess if it weren't for your stupid Shredder
Modern Raph: OUR Shredder?! YOUR SHREDDER STARTED THIS WHOLE STUPID MESS WITH HIS STUPID TECHNODROME IN THE STUPID FIRST PLACE!!!

And let's not forget, the entire final act of the film would not have happened, were it not for Classic Donatello and his Deus Ex Machina tendencies.

Going back to what I was saying before about the exaggerated goofiness, I had no problem with it because I viewed it as a form of contrast. This is especially prevalent when the Mirage Comics (aka Turtle Prime) Turtles are finally introduced. The Classic Turtles were goofy to the point of barely taking anything seriously. The Prime Turtles on the other hand, were hyper-aggressive and would have likely killed the "wannabe" Turtles had Modern Leo not dropped Shredder's name. By comparison to those two groups, the Modern Turtles were the middle ground: A mixture of the serious and the campy, leaning a bit more towards serious.

Also, to address a few other complaints I've read around the Net...

The voices for the Classic Characters don't sound like the original cast

I can't beleive people are still raging about this one. Really, do I even NEED to explain this? Taking aside the fact that the original voice cast from the Classic Cartoon couldnt come back due to legal issues, anyone who knows the Classic Series well enough knows that the voices often changed. Shredder went through at least three voice actors (if not more), and regarding the Turtles, Raphael and Donatello in particular were often subject to substitute voice actors. Also worthy of note: Raphael's first VA, Rob Paulsen, was permanently replaced by the time the final season rolled around.

Classic Leo being puzzled at his counterpart calling Modern Splinter "Father"

A sly reference to the fact that Classic Splinter was never referred to as such in the old series. If he was not addressed as "Splinter", he would always be called either "Master" or "Sensei". Never "Father".

Classic Mikey's line of "Things like this never happened back home"

Yet another sly reference to the Classic Cartoon's habit of breaking the Forth Wall. In their own show, the Classic Turtles were fully aware that they were in a television series, and often made mention of that fact.

For example, in one episode, Donatello gets thrown into a building and it collapses on him. As he climbs out of the rubble, he comments that "The writers must've spent their entire budget on this episode". Another example was Shredder revealing the Evil Plan Of The Week, and pointing out to an irritated Krang that "I wasn't explaining it to YOU" before turning to face the Fourth Wall, literally POINTING at the audience, and adding "I was explaining it to THEM".

Given the fact that the Classic Turtles and villains knew that they were in a show, coupled with the simple truth that the heroes would always invariably win, it stands to reason that while the Classic Turtles had faced danger in their world, they'd never faced anything quite like the omnicidal maniac that the Modern Shredder ultimately becomes. Since they spend almost all of the movie out of their proverbial "comfort zone", this in turn means that they had never faced the threat of truly being destroyed. Hence, Mikey's panicked remark.

The Classic Turtles breaking down and crying at one point
Out of character? Yes. But again, see above. The universe they are in is not theirs, and they were just attacked by an enemy that could have potentially killed them.

Classic Mikey being unable to lift a manhole cover in the world of the Modern Turtles

This, along with Classic Leo most being a goofball, is one of the few genuine complaints I see with this film, as it is one of the scarce few instances of explicitly showing the Classic Turtles as being physically weak.

Other than that, however, I honestly didn't see much of anything wrong with how the Classic Characters were portrayed. Classic April was still a damsel in distress (and FYI, the mutant food seen in the movie is ALSO shown in the original cartoon. Check out DoctorDrinkX10's Youtube rant about Turtles Forever, he points it out), and despite the overly-goofy characterizations, the movie also portrays some things correctly. Such as the fact that in the old show, the Turtles hardly ever used their weapons on living enemies, preferring instead to create obstacles with the surrounding environment (encounters with the robotic Foot Clan being obvious exceptions).

All in all, I was actually pretty ok with how the Classic Characters were treated here. And before anybody decides to jump on my back and claw like a savage monkey, I'd like to point out that I too grew up with the Classic Cartoon and still have a soft spot for it.

We all have our problems, some just hide it better.

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[–] trekkie_knight 12 years ago

I've never understood this idea that the old Turtles reactions made sense because they were in another universe that was more serious than their show.

It's not as if they never faced danger before. They fought enemies that could have killed them all the time. And even if they went in to a new situation more serious than what they'd faced before, why would they automatically cower in terror from it? They were still heroes. Heroes usually don't cower in terror at the first sign of new level of adversity.

If they were aware of being in a TV show in their own show, then they should be aware they are still in a TV show now. Raphael even breaks the fourth wall in this too. So they should know they should always win in this as well. It's not like that changed in the new show. The New Turtles still defeated Shredder in the end.

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[–] soul_reaver265 12 years ago

I think it makes perfect sense, myself.

True, Classic Raph did break the fourth wall in this movie. And he was always met with odd reactions from the Modern Series cast, ultimately resulting in Hun asking why he keeps doing it because there's nobody there. Thus making it clear that - in keeping with the general idea of being more serious than the Classic Series - the Fourth Wall doesnt exist in the Modern TMNT world.

I get that people may not like the idea of the Classic TMNT world being treated as...shall we say, meta-fictional (for lack of a more immediate/appropriate term), but it goes along rather well with what I mentioned about the old toon's self-awareness and how this movie exaggerates its goofier aspects.

For a link that helps to support my post, here's part one of a three-part review of the original TMNT cartoon, courtesy of James Rolfe and the Cinemassacre website

http://cinemassacre.com/2011/04/19/tmnt-cartoon-series-review-part-1-of-3/

Also, DoctorDrinkX10's review/rant on Turtles Forever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SzclRsMa1Q

We all have our problems, some just hide it better.

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[–] trekkie_knight 12 years ago

Well it's not really "them" if they've been exaggeration beyond recognition.

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[–] mh0830 12 years ago

I haven't watch the turtles for years being a fully grown man but I am intrigued by this movie because of the classic cheesy 87 turtles and because of the storyline. I like movies, etc to be gritty, edgy etc like the modern 2003 turtles but growing up a 90's child I will always love and have a place in my heart for the cheesy 87 turtles.

On another note I loved the turtles/power rangers (another show I loved from childhood) cross over.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] Monkey_Stew 12 years ago

I liked the movie, but I didn't like how useless the 80's turtles were. I thought it was cool how different they were to the 00's turtles, but when it came time to fight, they should have been portrayed as more competent.

youtube.com/grapejuicepictures

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] soul_reaver265 11 years ago

In fairness to the vast majority of '03 TMNT fans, just imagine you'd never witnessed Batman before seeing The Dark Knight. Then you see The Dark Knight and love it.

Then someone says to you, "Hey, you wanna see the Batman I grew up with?" and hands you a DVD copy of the campy 1960's TV series, which leaves you horrendously disappointed after viewing.

That's pretty much how the original Ninja Turtles cartoon stacks up to more recent incarnations: Not very well at all.

To give a more personal example, I introduced my niece to the Ninja Turtles when she was very young, via VHS copies of the 1987 series. She absolutely adored what she saw, and has carried a fondness for the TMNT ever since then. She visited me recently, and I happened to be watching the '87 series (specifically, "The Incredible Shrinking Turtles"). As the episode progressed, I pointed out that she used to watch this when she was little, and almost immediately she gave me a look that pretty much screamed "I used to LIKE this crap?"

In regards to Turtles Forever, what trekkie-knight says about the old show being exaggerated is very true. Most have understandably claimed that the '87 Turtles werent THIS silly, which is all well and good. But there's also an old saying "You can't make fun of something that isn't there"

To elaborate, I said it before when I reviewed the movie on Youtube and I'll say it again: all Turtles Forever really does to the 1987 series is take all of the already-present humorous aspects, and exaggerate them to their most logical point.

One could argue that the creators were being disrespectful to the old show, except that such changes have happened before in crossovers. Almost any of the Doctor Who anniversary specials aired during the time of that franchise's original incarnation (1963-1989) will tell you as much, and I don't think there's any better example than the 20th anniversary special "The Five Doctors"

- The First Doctor's "elderly" aspects are all played up, including his more irascible behavior
- The Second and Third Doctors try to one-up each other and take shots at each other when they finally meet. They even trade insults before departing back to their own time periods.
- The Fifth Doctor acts like an amalgamation of his usual self and The Fourth Doctor (an early version of the script had The Fourth Doctor in the lead, being that Tom Baker was the longest-serving actor to play The Doctor. When Baker refused to come back for filming - he had left only two years prior and his brief appearance in the finished product is taken from the incomplete and unaired serial "Shada" - most of his dialogue was shafted onto Peter Davison)

We all have our problems, some just hide it better.

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[–] ahaas-4 11 years ago

I'm pretty sure the movie was poking fun of how the 80's turtles show got a lot more goofier later, and broke the fourth wall every chance they got.

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[–] rexcrk 11 years ago

Yeah I'm primarily a fan of the original cartoon (the 2003 one was great and all, but I didn't like it enough to buy it on DVD or anything) and I thought all the 80's stuff was handled pretty well in this movie! I didn't see it as condescending or anything.

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[–] Lou_500 11 years ago

I watched season 1 and 2 of the '80s series this week, then watched Turtles Forever and while Shredder and Krang took themselves seriously in that version, some of their ideas and contraptions were pretty damn stupid. Like, in one episode Shredder has to go to Florida to retrieve a batch of mutant frogs, to which Rocksteady asks "Are you really gonna go out dressed like that?"

So Shredder changes his outfit in his dressing room, right? NO, he produces a bloody holographic thing-a-ma-jig and puts a projection around himself that just looks like him unmasked and in casual clothes. OF ALL THE STUPID USES FOR SCI-FI CLOAKING TECHNOLOGY.

And not only that, but when Shredder's had to go topside in other episodes he's dressed like a bloody monk with a metal mask on. He puts a big brown cloak on, thinking that's meant to detract attention away from him?

Shredder doesn't even hide his face to conceal a disfigurement, because he's taken his mask off a couple of times revealing that his face isn't disfigured!

[/rant]

Shredder also had his little childish temper tantrum moments when he lost a fight.

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[–] Anaraksoasis 10 years ago

I'm a big fan of the '87 turtles. Along with "Real Ghostbusters" and "Masters of the universe" it's my fav 80's cartoon. Yeah,the show never took it's self seriously and the guy's could be goofy as hell, but when it was time to get down to business they fearlessly kicked some shell.

I like the '03 turtles, for different reasons. It's a different type of show, more serious, the darker plots and on-going storylines were fun. However, I felt that the writers on Turtles Forever dropped the ball. I get what they were going for, contrasting the different era's, showing the evolution, but it didn't work for me as it was, it could have been handled better. Granted they didn't want to *beep* all over the then current turtle line up; making the '87 turtles look cooler may have hurt the '03 turtles marketability, but still some respect is due. Had I never seen the 80's turtles, this movie would have probably kept me away from it, which is what bothers me most. Turtles Forever was a chance to open another era of cartoons to a new generation. Instead they basically ridiculed it, even if it wasn't intentional. I remember when The Real Ghostbusters popped up on Extreme Ghostbusters which was a more serious take on Ghostbusters. They didn't spoof the guy's, they showed that they were silly sometimes, but they also got the job done.

In the end, I like the "Turtles forever" movie, it was fun, had a good plot, and it was chock full of nostalgia. Like many here though, I wish the guy's got a little better treatment. Not saying they shouldn't be goofy, but they didn't need to be spoof's of themselves.

Turtle power forever!!!

Oh well, there will always be the 80's series to watch.

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[–] hernandez_harold12 10 years ago

It wasnt a straight up "*beep* you" to the original show. Yeah it made fun of it, but they didnt represent them in a totally negative way. It boasted on the things that made the original show great. The film, in fact accurately made fun of every TMNT version that came after the original 1984 Mirage comic books. It showcased how different it has become over the years, how it "sold out". Together they all worked and helped to save their worlds.

"Showing off is the fool's idea of glory"

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[–] domester82 10 years ago

I grew up with the 1987 cartoon, and the 1990s movies, and I loved this film. In fact, it could be the best TMNT movie ever. And I say this after having seen the recent 2014 movie (which I actually thought wasn't too bad, but thats a story for another thread ) .

I thought it was a clever homage to every era of the Turtles. They even had visual references to the 1990 live action Turtles, and the 2007 CGI Turtles.

They did present the 87 turtles in a very goofy light, but ultimately at the end , the 03 and 87 Turtles parted on good terms. The 1984 Mirage Comics prime Turtles were portrayed as very aggressive, weren't they?

A great concept , and an entertaining movie

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