But let's be honest. ALL Christians believe that the rest of you faithless misguided sheep will be cast into the pit of flames and burn forever. In hell. Every- Last- One. Burn.
SO the next time you're sitting next to your Christian friend at a restaraunt, or at work, know that's what they think about you.
Wait, the non-Christians are the sheep? The ones who don't believe in the invisible man living in the clouds who watches every little thing we do and will send us to hell if we don't follow his 10 rules? Those people are the sheep? o.O
I actually don't have a problem with Christians, though. I feel like every person wants to believe in *something* whether it's science or Buddhism or Jesus or Allah. We want to give meaning to our lives by believing in something greater than ourselves.
I do, however, have a problem with being called a sheep because I don't believe the way someone else does. No one should be judged because of what they choose or don't choose to believe in. Live and let live, I say.
Call me Katie. ;-)
Ah, but that's EXACTLY what will happen to you, the Christians believe. Quite precisely, you will be judged. You could not have put it more accurately.
shareI am so tired of the anti-Christian bigotry on IMDB boards. Religious people are the last people you can still get away with insulting and no one will call you on it.
shareIt's not bigotry, it's faith. Are you saying that Christians do NOT believe what I said? Just sayin the truth is all. Don't take fact as bigotry because you don't like the fact.
Ask yourself- Are you a Christian? If so, what does the Bible say about getting into heaven? ""I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Therefore, those who do not believe Jesus is the Savior... do they get to the Father? No. So where do they go? Simple answer.
How is this bigotry to state what is a core belief of a Christian?
Mohamed said that God loves sneezes and hates yawns. To repeat this is not bigotry. Ganesh's father cut his head off. To say this is not bigotry. Moses was not allowed into the promised land. Again, not bigotry. So why are Christian facts bigotry?
I am so tired of the anti-Christian bigotry on IMDB boards. Religious people are the last people you can still get away with insulting and no one will call you on it.
Yeah I saw a poor homeless kid in the desert eat his own hand off out of hunger, and even THAT kid complained less than some religious people.
shareGive us some examples and links of your statement please. You seem to whine really loud!
Love you as a person.
I am too. It accepted form of bigotry, by people who claim to hate bigots.
If not for Catholics in New York in 1980's, when HIV and AIDS were coming out big, Gays and others would have died without medical care. ONly Catholic hospitals, like St. Vincent's and Saint Claire, were accepting them. Saint Vincent's had first big AIDS ward, a forgotten bit of history. Public and private hospitals, Jewish hospitals, al were saying no.
Christians are labeled as bigots, but look who supports illegal immigration, and do almost all missionary work? Yet due to their belief on abortion and gay issues, they get hammered, and constantly.
All the homosexuals treated by Catholic doctors, nurses, and volunteers are long dead. However their friends and families still remain, yet don't speak out. In fact, AIDS victims could not get funeral homes ot take them--except some associated with Catholic church. Catholics in New York City paved way for other medical facilities to learn how to treat AIDS patients, and showed that treating them was not risk it was first feared to be (It was thought it was spread by casual contact, and airborne)
This character was portrayed as tight, angry, crazy religious nut. As usual, filmmakers are ones who are bigoted and hateful.
Wrong!
Ah, but that's EXACTLY what will happen to you, the Christians believe. Quite precisely, you will be judged. You could not have put it more accurately.
BruklinBridge,
Got news for you, everyone, including Christians, will be judged. If you are going to try to spout off, get your facts straight and don't spread lies just because you are full of hate inside.
Love you as a person.
I generally agree, but just wanted to point out that we do not "choose" our beliefs - if sincere they are totally involuntary. It's important, because most theists believe we choose to reject their gods so deserve to be punished.
shareI'm a Christian and I don't think that at all about my friends who aren't, so perhaps you shouldn't speak about things you are ignorant of?
WEREWOLF
"I don't know you had him last" -Tom Servo
I do think that "true believing Christians" are like that.
A few weeks ago I was attending a lecture by Sam Harris and Richard "King of the Atheists" Dawkins in Oxford. Whilst in the queue I made the mistake of nodding my head at some retarded statement made by a fundamentalist Christian woman who was there to 'save' people; she took my dismissive nod as a sign that I wanted salvation and for the next twenty minutes went to town on me about the power and the glory. This behavior is common of all true believing Christians.
As an atheist, I find that people tell me I'm wrong for three reasons.
1.Christianity is TRUE, the bible is TRUE, it was written by God - FACT!
2.Religion is useful, it helps people cope and gives them morals.
3.You and your atheism is just wrong!
The majority of Christians fall into group 2, these are people who call themselves Christian but advocate their beliefs because they are useful in some way, not because they are true. I call these people Plastic-Christians; they do it because they were told to be Christian as children, they were raised that way, or are scared of what comes after death, or some other normal and justifiable human condition that makes them afraid to reject the superstition. Normally, if I talk with someone like this for long enough we discover what the real reason is for their Christianity (and it's never because they believe it to be true).
But "true believing Christians" are all like Patrick Wilson's character. These people so totally believe in an afterlife, that they are capable of the most bizarre behavior and expect it of others.
Just look at those people who expected the rapture on May 21st. They are true believing Christians.
"The majority of Christians fall into group 2, these are people who call themselves Christian but advocate their beliefs because they are useful in some way, not because they are true."
I don't think it's fair to speak of "the majority of X" unless you've spoken to "the majority of X."
I like how you set the parameters of the argument on things you've been told or experienced not on actual fact. Your number 1 is pretty much the only thing from your whole post that agree with. "True Christianity" is a very broad term. No "true believing Christians" i know thought the world was ending that day, and I'm pretty sure I know more than you do. No "true believing Christian" I know believes it simply because they were told it as children and are afraid. You can take the fringe or worst members of any group and judge that group upon them if you like. Though that is a terrible way to live your life and often times you can misjudge an entire group from it.
See the problem with your whole point is that you are taking the extreme and making it the norm. True believing Christians are called to be peacemakers, to love people and to serve the less fortunate. It is God's place to judge and to punish, not mine or any other Christians. This is why Judas betrayed Jesus (in essence) he was a Zealot and thought that Jesus was going to change the world by social/political revolution, when he discovered Jesus called them to "love thy neighbors as themselves" and to "submit to authority" (the Romans) he decided to betray Jesus. God doesn't call us to bible thump people, only to be ready to share the hope we have in our lives. No, true Christians aren't fringe fanatics, they aren't even the others you talked about who simply do it because they were raised that way. True Christians are just people who have been given a gift and who are sharing that gift with the people around them. They aren't on TV calling for damnation, or saying the world is ending. They aren't on TV with signs saying "God hates f--s" they are in their communities, taking care of the sick and the poor. Looking after the widows and orphans, they are giving out God's love and compassion to a hurting world, not in the hopes of converting them, but simply to love the, because that's what God commands us to do. We share the love has given to us on other people, that's it. God and the bible has changed my life, why wouldn't I want to share that with others? God calls us to share the gospel (good news) so many people have done this in terrible and bad ways, but that doesn't mean the message itself is bad or wrong.
I'm not trying to start a debate, but I simply think you are misunderstanding what true Christianity is about (as do many who claim to be Christians). Have you read anything by CS Lewis or NT Wright? if you care to learn more about God and the Christian faith on a more intellectual level, beyond your personal experiences or what you've heard, they might be a good place to start. Cheers!
WEREWOLF
"I don't know you had him last" -Tom Servo
Well said, very well said! What you described is about 90% of the Christians I know.
You simply cannot get an objective opinion on religion -- at all. It is WAY too personal.
You hit the nail on the head when you said that we have been given a gift and we want to share that gift.
A few other examples...
I've done really well on Nutrisystem, so I will also share that knowledge.
Two years ago I switched my dogs to a prey model raw diet -- the results are incredible and, honestly, make me feel dumb for not doing it sooner -- and I see people bring their dogs into the vet to get steroid shots and I want to scream, "HEY! Feed them a SPECIES APPROPRIATE DIET and you won't need those shots!"
When my son was 3 weeks old I put him on a sleep schedule... it has done wonders for our lives and we have a well-rested, perfectly happy (NOT tantrumy) 3 year old son now. And to parents who have a 1 year old who still isn't sleeping through the night I want to say, "Come on! It doesn't have to be that way!"
(just a few examples)
Yours in Christ,
~Molly~
www.hcdoxies.com
Isn't it possible that people just want to externalize their inner goodness and put it in a sort of 'safe' where it stays always perfect? For example the Christian version is widely available in US, so people make Jesus/God the 'safe', in Muslim countries that goodness is projected onto Allah/Muhammad and so on with similar religions.
And what is this "gift"? I don't mind someone sharing something they find special. But if they show me a turd and promise me it's a magic turd that sprouts a beanstalk that leads to a wonderful kingdom where we can live forever without sadness...well, then we kind of are at an impasse, aren't we? But wait! there's more! We're all worthless reprobates who are completely without value and deserving of torture...unless you help them polish the turd.
Now the gift is just an insult. Why can't they see what is insulting about this gift? Don't tell me it doesn't happen. I heard that exact sentiment just today on one of my town's 2 24hr all fundie radio channels. I don't think they are generally bad people by any stretch. Somehow they don't even think it's a bad thing to say about someone (because remember the turd!- It magically takes away the worthlessness!)
No more about your gift. Do you really think I haven't heard the story? Really?
Enough. Just enough.
Well, gosh, I would answer your questions, but in your last two paragraphs you attempt to control the conversation by telling me not to answer them.
So, let me know what you want me to do.
Yours in Christ,
~Molly~
www.hcdoxies.com
What I want you to do? What does that mean? You noticed the last part of my post, what about the rest? You seem like you want to tell me something new? Really? Let's assume I have heard your magical nonsensical story. What else would you like to tell me? I'd be happy to talk to anyone about anything, but don't be condescending and start talking to me as if I'm 6 yrs old who's never heard the most common story ever and is so gullible as to believe your personal assertions about how the magic bean works.
RRpostal,
You are the original condescending person here. You are the one who started talking to us like we were six year olds.
Look in the mirror for once!
Maybe you are the gullible one who disbelieves???
I know it's hard to come off your mountain and look in the mirror.
Love you as a person.
The gospel is insulting. It tells the strong they are weak, it tells the rich they are poor, the truth that Jesus Christ is God and that he died for our sins to make payment for something we were unable to do is a stumbling block for the wise (1 Corinthians 1:18-31). The gospel tells us WE ARE UNABLE, all of us. This goes against our very nature as human beings.
It's not just a story. Miracles happen, lives change, if you don't want to receive the gift or even listen that is fine. There is nothing I can do or say to change your mind.
But please... try not to be so condescending. I really don't blame you though, this "magic turd" stuff seemed pretty insane to me not too long ago. But know I didn't check my brain at the door, I came in eyes wide open into my life as a Christian, and I don't regret it at all.
WEREWOLF
"I don't know you had him last" -Tom Servo
LeeandFong,
You are so far removed from understanding what you designate as a "true believing Christian".
You label people in a way that I am sure you would deteist if someone labeled you in that manner.
Think about that.
Love you as a person.
You believe that your non believing friends are going to heaven?
share"ALL Christians believe that the rest of you faithless misguided sheep will be cast into the pit of flames and burn forever. In hell. Every- Last- One. Burn."
Except for the Christians who don't. Universalism is alive and well.
Fun responses that miss the point. What I said was:
As an atheist, I find that people tell me I'm wrong for three reasons.
1.Christianity is TRUE, the bible is TRUE, it was written by God - FACT!
2.Religion is useful, it helps people cope and gives them morals.
3.You and your atheism is just wrong!
I think the problem with conversations and discussions like these, where believers and non-believers argue, is that there are so many different ways to believe (or versions of christianity, if you will), making broad statements will always seem like generalization to alot of individuals. Some things in the bible are rationalized away, some are not taken litterally, etc.
Obviously speaking from experience, as the OP does, is OK, but extrapolating it further will most likely clash with the opinions of alot of people, and so it is not really wise to do so since you risk putting words into other peoples mouths, when they do not necessarily share those views or beliefs.
I think that no matter what you believe, the bottom line is that this is a movie and the character of Joe is an extremist ( to say the least) and it was how him as an extremist ( and more then slightly unhinged human being) dealt with the situation.
Of course you can't say that everyone that believes in Christianity is like Joe because that is very closed minded.
Bottom line is that it is a movie and a storyline and that it is starting people talking about it and discussions such as this one, maybe it's done it's job ( other then being a piece of entertainment that is an escape from everyday life)
Well, Christianity isn't the only religion that states this sort of thing. Pretty much all religions with a god (excluding ones like Buddhism) says that it's followers are the 'chosen ones' and that pretty much everyone else is sentenced to 'eternal damnation' for their unbelief. All religions are delusional.
shareI find that the majority of "True Christians" have:1. Not bothered to read all of the bible. 2.Support superstition and irrational behavior. 3. Hide behind their personal interpretation of Christ while supporting persecution of human rights and Theocratic dictatorships around the world...now and throughout history."True Christians" support anti witch and anti Gay behaviorism in south Africa.If your going to deny reality,promote superstition and all of its fall-out...at LEAST Be honest about the organizations and behavior you support...read ALL of the Horror that is the Bible,and Quit Hiding behind Christ.Try to show some of the character that Christians are constantly claiming to have.
shareThereminator101,
You are such a tough person hiding behind your computer. I dare you to go and speak like this face to face with Muslims.
You won't.
Why does he need to go speak to muslims? We're not talking about muslims here. This is a message board for a movie that deals with the Christian faith, and this thread is about christianity. How about you address his points rather than trying to change the subject to Islam? What's the matter, you have no counter-arguments against what he said because you know he is right?
shareYeah, but doesn't that make you not really a Christian? Are there not universal beliefs that make up a Christian? Or is faith in Jesus and no other common belief sufficiant for two people to call themselves Christians.
"I belive that Jesus was the son of God, sent to Earth to save us from our sins"
"I believe that Jesus was an alien sent to earth to scare us into being good, thereby assisting in the advancement of a society that was previously rife with self destructive behavior"
We're both Christians!
BruklinBridge,
You are such a tough guy hiding behind your computer.
I dare you to go and speak like this face to face with Muslims.
You won't.
But let's be honest. ALL Christians believe that the rest of you faithless misguided sheep will be cast into the pit of flames and burn forever. In hell. Every- Last- One. Burn.
[deleted]
A vast majority of Christians believe in a literal hell. You go tell them they're wrong.
With enough mental gymnastics, you can pretty much believe anything and still call yourself a Christian.
[deleted]
Bee, that's just my point. If you're a Christian, you believe those things. If you don't but want to call yourself a Christian, then you're just a superstitious person who is aware of Jesus and makes up the tennants of faith as you go along.
shareChristianity also states of a JUST and LOVING God.
I am a christian in that I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins.
However, I find it impossible to reconcile the idea that a just and loving god will punish people for things that are beyond their control (such as being born into another religion)
There are no Wal-Marts in Heaven.
You say it as if it's the most decent thing in the world, "he died on the cross for my sins".
But it's not much of a sacrifice is it? Much less a necessary one. He didn't really die, not in any real sense of the word. And there is no understandable method by which a human sacrifice could forgive anyone of anything, particularly the "sin" of simply existing. Your "just and loving" god seems incapable of forgiving without blood being involved. How christians make this story into something good and decent is beyond me. I can understand someone who's had it drummed in as a child, I suppose, but to actually defend this position actively?
A) I didn't criticize, I stated a fact. If you don't believe this, and you call yourself a christian, it may be time for some self reflection. I would argue you aren't really a christian, making the statement (not a criticism) true still
B) "The only way to the father is through me" If you don't believe it, you are not a Christian, because that's Christ's own words. To be saved, you must believe. If you believe, you are a Christian. If you do not believe, by the logic of JC himself, you are not going to the Father.
Aint no argument.
In response to B, if Jesus is the Lord of all creation and is sovereign over all things/beings (as many Christians believe) and you believe that nothing good can come from us broken beings without Jesus acting through us (as Reformed Protestants believe), then anyone who is performs good actions is technically behaving with Jesus Christ acting through them.
And, as a famous Reformed Protestant once said, (paraphrased) there are people who God has chosen to go to Heaven and people God has chosen to go to hell, but since no person on earth can claim to know the total mind of God, no mortal being can say another mortal being is going to hell, and as such we must treat one another as though we are all going to heaven.
Just because you don't believe in Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior doesn't mean I can unequivically say you are going to hell, but I can say that because I believe and work to glorify the name of Jesus, I can be assured of going to heaven.
And yes, I have Scriptural basis in what I have said, theological basis in what I have said, and what I have said is within the canon of Christian tradition.
Reformed = Cherry Picker
Do you have scriptural basis for having your cake and eating it too?
A) I didn't criticize, I stated a fact. If you don't believe this, and you call yourself a christian, it may be time for some self reflection. I would argue you aren't really a christian, making the statement (not a criticism) true still
B) "The only way to the father is through me" If you don't believe it, you are not a Christian, because that's Christ's own words. To be saved, you must believe. If you believe, you are a Christian. If you do not believe, by the logic of JC himself, you are not going to the Father.
I just decided that to be a Christian, one must only enjoy Oreo cookies. I therefore am a Christian, but do not have to subscribe to those pesky rules that are in scripture.
This is fun. Can I do this with Islam too? Let's see! Ok, I am a Muslim if I have... both feet still attached to my body. Do I have them? Check! Ok, I'm a Muslim too!
Sure, I know. "thou shall have no Gods before me." Not a problem. Since I made up my own rules, rule one is, that doesn't apply to me.
Now you and I are the same. We both set our own parameters for a religion that already exists and has pre-established parameters, and claim we are members of it not because we follow it's teaching, but because we decided on new teachings and follow those instead.
Are you talking to me? I'm not arbitrary about my belief; I take an informed approach to scripture.
shareIt's quite strange how in the first post the misnomer of "people believe in science" has just happily gone by in this topic.
You don't have to "believe" in science, because its a method that refines itself based on the evidence to provide facts. There's no need for faith in science because theory is based on evidence.
You can have all the disbelief in gravity you want, yet some how I don't think we will see you Supermanning it around any time soon.
The next thing that will crop up is the fundamentalists who believe atheism is some sort of religion, the "lack of a belief is a belief" crowd...Err no sorry the burden of proof is on you guys, not believing in something because there's no evidence for it is not a belief system.
Finally someone who gets it.
BTW- an informed approach to scripture? That's a bit like a scientific approach to Harry Potter.
// Also, ALL Christians DON'T believe that non-christian aren't going to be saved. //
WRONG. :D According to Revelations 21:8 --
"But to the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. That is the second death.”
This website is wonderful at clarifying what the Bible says about hell: http://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell
It's worth a look if you claim to be a "real" Christian. Because the Bible is the holy book of Christianity, and there's really no getting around it unless you're a Cherry Picker. Speaking for myself, I'm agnostic and just make stuff up as I go along. :)
WRONG.
You say i'm a sheep? But you're the one who needs a shepard.
shareI think most Christians do not judge their friends or neighbors. You can judge an action or belief without judging the person.
I am sorry how paranoid your words sound and hope you don't really believe this "us and against them" message that I keep seeing spout by atheists.
I would never presume to know who is going to heaven or hell and I have never know anyone to claim to have this knowledge.
"I think most Christians do not judge their friends or neighbors. You can judge an action or belief without judging the person."
I don't think you can really speak for most Christians. I completely agree you can judge actions without judging the person but I have my doubts about how often this happens.
"I am sorry how paranoid your words sound and hope you don't really believe this "us and against them" message that I keep seeing spout by atheists."
I was with you until the "spout by atheist" part, that is just another polarizing statement that makes it seem like a battle.
Personally I am an atheist, I have been my whole life. My parents raised me to be a Lutheran but it just didn't make sense to me. Above being an atheist though, I am a pragmatist. I see that religion has real tangible effects in the world that motivate people, inspire them, and cause lots of positivity so I do not think there needs to a battle between belief and disbelief. If you are OK with my not believing in god, I'm OK with your believing in him.
I think lots of the problems come from using the word "christian" to sum up a vastly diverse group of people. I think I could get along fine with a group of people that believe Christian Universalism but I might have trouble with those that interpret the bible literally.
Just playing "devil's advocate" here -- I certainly dont' mean any disrepsect...
I don't think you can really speak for most Christians. I completely agree you can judge actions without judging the person but I have my doubts about how often this happens.
So I realize this response is half a year late but, good point! I did sort of do that didn't I?
I'm so far removed from the conversation I don't even really remember my thought process but I believe I just meant that statement as an observation of a social phenomena, not specifically about Christians.
You wrote:
But let's be honest. ALL Christians believe that the rest of you faithless misguided sheep will be cast into the pit of flames and burn forever. In hell. Every- Last- One. Burn.
SO the next time you're sitting next to your Christian friend at a restaurant, or at work, know that's what they think about you.